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Post by ohana on Nov 3, 2020 15:39:46 GMT
Bereboot - that would certainly seem to agree with what Mistroma has found to work. However my concern is that, having taken my swivel apart, I found it had stainless steel ball bearings onto stainless steel face plates, and it was obviously originally filled with grease. So if we can find a way to dismantle, clean and regrease, this has to be the best solution!
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Post by so32foot on Nov 4, 2020 8:43:08 GMT
may be this will help you further.
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 4, 2020 13:08:22 GMT
Thanks for the link. I thought that Ohana had previously mentioned my link to the document back in 2013 and I assumed that he already had it. However, it would have been sensible to post again in this thread to save others some searching in order to find it. Facnor provided the document when I was trying to dismantle the unit back in 2013.
It does seem to be the same diagram I have (https://jeanneau.proboards.com/attachment/download/425).
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 4, 2020 13:39:45 GMT
The head swivel piece of the facnor furling system is not turning very well (12 years old). Anyone knows how to deal with this? Can it be greased with something like WD40? After reading a lot of posts concerning this problem, i am trying to grease it daily from the top with CRC56. It seems it's beginning to work , the swivel is turning much lighter now. Hope this solution works for me, and if so, i will repeat this each winter. I imagine the CRC56 will help. I was surprised at how much black silt was washed out with the diesel rinse I used. I sat it in a container and poured diesel through it several times and left it mostly submerged overnight before repeating. The diesel did eventually run clear and the swivel was thoroughly dried in the sun for a few days. Repeated spraying will have a similar effect but probably take a lot longer and risks black marks on the sail. I used pro-lube afterwards as it dries out completely and shouldn't catch too much dust and grit. However, I had been convinced that this unit contained Torlon balls. I think that I found this online and also confirmed by Facnor. I eventually came to the conclusion that the people I emailed were pretty clueless regarding technical matters. Pro-lube seemed like an ideal solution as it penetrates easily, evaporates and leaves a residue that's not harmful to Torlon. I clean and re-grease every season but that's only to trap dust entering the swivel and doesn't get near the bearings. It has worked so far and I had planned to do the same again if it ever seized. Ohana has discovered metal balls and that changes things. I'll probably dismantle the bearing completely if it starts to stick again. Interesting that it is just a friction fit. I might have heated the outer shell with boiling water and bashed it down on a lead block in an attempt to remove it. Might work but I imagine it will be a tight fit and the material has low density. Impact driving works better on metal parts than light plastic bits but worth a try. Ohana should be able to give an idea of how much force is needed to remove the collar. Heat and pre-soaking with penetrating fluid would help a bit.
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Post by ohana on Dec 6, 2020 21:16:28 GMT
Hi all, apologies for the radio silence on this for the last while.
I have now heard back from IGUS re the plastic collar. They would not confirm any info re the part they provide to Facnor (understandable if there is confidentiality clauses in the supplier contract) - but the UK engineering guys reckon the plastic is IGLDUR J. They have quoted to make replacements for me, machined from solid bar - price for one £168 inc VAT, price for 10 is £57 inc VAT.
It is not worth it to me to buy one at £168, but could be worth having one at £57. Trouble is I would need to find committed buyers for the other 9!
Given I have a new one in place (was forced to earlier this summer, else 2 week cruise was off), I would only repair the old one to perhaps keep as a spare or sell as a spare for someone else. However, I would be prepared to front a purchase of 10 (one for myself) if 9 others came forward and were prepared to pay up front?
Each furler upper swivel unit has 2 of these collars, but only one replacement is needed if the furler is dismantled for refurbishment.
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Post by zaphod on Feb 18, 2022 6:47:50 GMT
Let me know how you get on dismantling it. The large lip seals, circlips and plastic sections are easy enough but nothing obvious after that. The bearings are unlikely to push upwards as that's the direction it is pulled in use. I thought the inner might push downwards but it seemed very solid. I did think about very hot water and using a press but didn't want to damage the Torlon bearings. I thought I saw the faintest shadow of some filled in holes inside where you might extract some locking pins. However, it looked very solid and not like a soft filler of any sort. Facnor would not give any dismantling advice and said it could only be carried out by a dealer. Perhaps it is something bizarre such as magnetic sprung pins inside and you need to know where to place a very strong magnet (kidding). I imagine you will also be stuck at the same point and just flush through with diesel. It did seem to work well and wasn't difficult. I just put it in a bucket and poured diesel through fairly slowly several time. I let it sit overnight slightly submerged and repeated the next day. I got quite a lot of gritty material out initially and the diesel was clear on the last couple of flushings. I let the swivel bake in the sun for a few days to dry out the diesel entirely. Black metal gets pretty hot in the Greek sun and I think all the diesel evaporated. I was able to flood it with a Pro-Lube spray fairly easily by just spraying whilst rotating and alternating between ends after a short wait. I also try to seal the top each winter with a little grease, then tape a plastic cover on top and seal the groove with 2 small amounts of grease. I think that this reduces the amount of sand and grit running into the bearing in storage. The boat is always covered in a goodly layer of Sahara dust each spring. How is your swivel holding up after flushing it with diesel? I assume you removed the seals before flushing, were you able to get them out without damaging them?
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Post by zaphod on Feb 18, 2022 6:52:09 GMT
Finally managed to completely dismantle the LS180 top swivel completely today. Need to take photos of the fully dismantled unit. Ref the pdf diagram posted by Mistrona - see jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2748/facnor-headsail-curlerThe hardest part was removing item 2 on the diagram (the upper one), this is a plastic collar, solid material. In the end, I drilled some holes into it and tapped in 3# 3mm self tapping screws, used these to pull the collar out. I will need to get a new one having done this. Having done this, the next circlip became accessible, and on removal, the ball bearing assembly. The bearings are stainless steel, all seem intact. But the bearing area was a congealed mess of old oil and water. Did you ever take photos of the disassembled swivel? If so can you post them? Having disassembled it, do you think it is necessary, or do you think the bearings can be sufficiently cleaned by flushing with solvent as Mistroma did? Are the bearings sealed or open?
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Post by ohana on Feb 18, 2022 22:12:34 GMT
Hi Zaphod,
See my earlier posts on this - I managed to get the Facnor 180 swivel apart, but having bought a new one (due to cruise date constraints!) I have never got round to reassembling it.
However, using what I learnt from the swivel, I disassembled and refurbished the lower drum. I did record this and have written this up with photos. THe lower drum (as you would expect) follows the swivel design almost exactly so this drum how-to should give you what you need.
I have tonight PMd Malcolm as to how I can get this how-to uploaded so it should appear on the site very soon.
Again, as mentioned elsewhere, the Facnor 180 series seems to have gone through a lot of variants. Some have tolron bearings, some open race type stainless steel (like mine). Some have bushes which are easily removed, others not so (like mine). No amount of flushing would have cured the mess of water and grease that I found in my facnor units, but this seems to work for others which are perhaps tolron (dry) type.
Hope this helps
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Post by zaphod on Feb 19, 2022 8:18:36 GMT
Hi Zaphod, See my earlier posts on this - I managed to get the Facnor 180 swivel apart, but having bought a new one (due to cruise date constraints!) I have never got round to reassembling it. However, using what I learnt from the swivel, I disassembled and refurbished the lower drum. I did record this and have written this up with photos. THe lower drum (as you would expect) follows the swivel design almost exactly so this drum how-to should give you what you need. I have tonight PMd Malcolm as to how I can get this how-to uploaded so it should appear on the site very soon. Again, as mentioned elsewhere, the Facnor 180 series seems to have gone through a lot of variants. Some have tolron bearings, some open race type stainless steel (like mine). Some have bushes which are easily removed, others not so (like mine). No amount of flushing would have cured the mess of water and grease that I found in my facnor units, but this seems to work for others which are perhaps tolron (dry) type. Hope this helps I didn't realize that some of the LS180 units had Torlon bearings. When you got yours apart did the bearings come out as a cartridge with the balls captive between the races, or were the balls loose? You say flushing wouldn't have cleaned up the greasy mess, but what about flushing with solvent or diesel like others have done?
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Post by ohana on Feb 19, 2022 10:31:21 GMT
The bearing balls were loose, not captured in a cage. Re plastic or stainless, I am only going by what others have reported where some advise having plastic and others stainless.
In my case, flushing might have worked but if it had, would ultimately left dry stainless ball bearings (ie no grease) which would have meant that the bearing would not run freely, but continued jamming. But with the bushes on mine being so tight, I doubt that flushing would have properly worked.
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Post by bereboot on Feb 19, 2022 14:41:20 GMT
Untill now I can keep the top swivel free turning with a few drips of crc65 each winter.
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Post by zaphod on Feb 19, 2022 18:24:27 GMT
Untill now I can keep the top swivel free turning with a few drips of crc65 each winter. Do you just apply the CRC656 to the seals? My seals look to be in really good condition , but I wonder if the seal is what is causing the swivel to be tight. The swivel turns smoothly but is tight. Maybe I should lube the seal to start with.
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Post by bereboot on Feb 19, 2022 22:27:58 GMT
Yes. I opened up the upper seal a bit with a small screwdriver and spray a little bit of crc on it.
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Post by Mistroma on Feb 20, 2022 0:13:38 GMT
Yes. I opened up the upper seal a bit with a small screwdriver and spray a little bit of crc on it. I think my swivel may well have Torlon bearings (prob. made in 2008). Facnor did confirm that but also told me to grease the bearings. I'm now pretty certain that I was probably talking to some clueless sales person. However, the sediment I washed out didn't look at all rusty. It was black but there should have been sufficient air around the bearings to produce red or brown staining. It was impossible to inject grease as Facnor initially suggested because the gap is way too narrow. A clean out with diesel, drying thoroughly and then pouring in Holts Pro-lube worked well. I think I did that in 2013 or 2014 and the issue has not returned (yet:D). Metal bearings would probably have rusted up by now. I remove the outer seal, clean underneath and re-pack the upper chamber with grease at the start of every season. The swivel sits at deck level all winter. I also seal the top of the swivel at the end of each season to stop rain and fine Sahara dust running down the foil into the furler. It's tricky to seal but I use some polythene held with wide self-amalgamating tape around the swivel body and foil. I put duct tape on top of everything. I also put little rubber plugs into the grooves in the foil, just above the swivel. I don't expect the grease under the seal to lubricate anything. It is only intended as a barrier to reduce ingress of dust and grit when the swivel is at the top of the foil.
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Post by zaphod on Feb 22, 2022 2:19:03 GMT
I finally go a chance to investigate my top swivel. Since I had a can of McLube on board I thought I would give that a shot first. I sprayed some on the top seal and started working the swivel, and it got a bit looser but the lube was pooled up on top of the seal, so I gently pressed the seal down to let the lube inside, and I was surprised with a face full of McLube! There was a build up of pressure behind the seal that released when I pressed the lip down! I sprayed some more McLube under the seal, and the swivel now spins quite freely!
Here I was thinking I had a project to do removing and disassembling the swivel, but it turns out the solution was much simpler than I thought! How often does that happen in the world of boat maintenance?
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