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Post by bereboot on Oct 2, 2020 18:31:21 GMT
The head swivel piece of the facnor furling system is not turning very well (12 years old).
Anyone knows how to deal with this?
Can it be greased with something like WD40?
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Post by zaphod on Oct 2, 2020 19:35:24 GMT
Wd40 is not a lubricant it is a solvent. You do not want to use that in your swivel.
Usually a fresh water flush is all it takes to loosen up a stiff swivel. Thats where you should start.
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Post by NZL50505 on Oct 2, 2020 22:46:24 GMT
My rigger told me Facnor is not the best quality furler and the top swivel is not designed to be a serviceable unit. Having said that I did spray some silicone lubricant into it with a small improvement. To do this I recommend you drop the sail to bring the swivel down to deck level and wrap it with a plastic bag before you spray lubricant into it. Then leave it a few days and you will probably get some muck dripping out into the bag. If you do this at the masthead you might get muck thrown everywhere when you next furl.
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Post by ohana on Oct 3, 2020 22:38:46 GMT
Have a search through the forums here and on ybw, Mistroma has posted some good advice on this subject
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Post by Mistroma on Oct 3, 2020 23:50:14 GMT
I had this problem back in 2013 and did solve it. The swivel was still working last year but I assume it will eventually need a repeat treatment. I think that you might find my posts in these threads of some interest. jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/3508/genoa-halyard-wrappingjeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2748/facnor-headsail-curlerI obviously missed the follow up question in the later thread and never posted details. I thought that I had but it might have been on another forum. I tried all the obvious things first, check angle of halyard, tension, try pro-lube etc. and nothing helped. The problem was eventually solved by removing the swivel, flushing with diesel, drying and running Pro-Lube through it. The balls inside my unit are Torlon (or similar) and I don't think rinsing with diesel is a problem. I don't think that they are meant to be lubricated, certainly not with grease, oil or WD40. Pro-Lube seemed to work well as it is very thin and does reach the inner part of the swivel. The solvent flashes off and leaves a dry lubricant behind and I don't think it attracts dust and grit. Some Facnor models can be dismantled easily but I could never find any method of taking the LS180 completely to bits. The forestay does need to be undone in order to remove the swivel. I've removed our swivel twice now and it was pretty difficult to refit the first time because of some helpful Spanish guys with no English. They kept trying to pull the foil down. I hope that the following notes are of some use. 1) Remove boom or lay it on deck (weight pulls top of mast back otherwise) 2) Slack off all standing rigging (side pretty slack and backstay(s) very slack 3) Tension up genoa halyard and another spare (main or spinnaker) near the bows (to pull mast forward and stop it falling down) 4) Slide a LONG line halfway up the foil and tie it off under tension directly in front of the boat 5) Undo screw on lower drum to allow you to lift foil slightly (slightly fuzzy on this detail but I can check a diagram) 6) Undo screw on foil under swivel to let it slide down 7) Undo bottom of forestay, swing to one side and remove drum, then swivel. Replacement is pretty simple as long as the forestay does NOT SAG in the middle. That's why you need the long line. I did this once when afloat and again when ashore when it was easy to get a long way in front of the bows to tension the foil support line. I also used the spinnaker halyard to pull it up halfway and a light line to pull it down later. I didn't use the foil support line until halfway through my first attempt. It is virtually impossible to reconnect the forestay with a sagging foil but pretty easy when it is supported. N.B. You need to pull the forestay down, not the foil. I lifted the foil with drum and used mole grips on the forestay end fitting to hold the foil and drum up. This allowed me to pull the fitting down and reconnect. Pulling the foil down will not help but I could not convince the Spanish guys on my first attempt. |
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Post by ohana on Oct 4, 2020 9:23:50 GMT
The swivel of my Facnor 180 jammed earlier this season, just before a 2 week cruise, in the end I replaced it. Not cheap but replaced as otherwise would have foregone the 2 weeks holiday. The old one is on my bench, plan to try to repair it as mistroma describes.
There is also another thread running in the Equipment section of these forums posted by Jim re dismantling and servicing the lower drum - again, some great advice here. My plan is to remove the drum before lifting the boat out, refurb it over the winter and refit it in the spring. The drum is working, but as a preventative maintenance measure
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Post by Mistroma on Oct 4, 2020 11:48:07 GMT
Let me know how you get on dismantling it. The large lip seals, circlips and plastic sections are easy enough but nothing obvious after that. The bearings are unlikely to push upwards as that's the direction it is pulled in use. I thought the inner might push downwards but it seemed very solid. I did think about very hot water and using a press but didn't want to damage the Torlon bearings. I thought I saw the faintest shadow of some filled in holes inside where you might extract some locking pins. However, it looked very solid and not like a soft filler of any sort.
Facnor would not give any dismantling advice and said it could only be carried out by a dealer. Perhaps it is something bizarre such as magnetic sprung pins inside and you need to know where to place a very strong magnet (kidding).
I imagine you will also be stuck at the same point and just flush through with diesel. It did seem to work well and wasn't difficult. I just put it in a bucket and poured diesel through fairly slowly several time. I let it sit overnight slightly submerged and repeated the next day. I got quite a lot of gritty material out initially and the diesel was clear on the last couple of flushings.
I let the swivel bake in the sun for a few days to dry out the diesel entirely. Black metal gets pretty hot in the Greek sun and I think all the diesel evaporated. I was able to flood it with a Pro-Lube spray fairly easily by just spraying whilst rotating and alternating between ends after a short wait.
I also try to seal the top each winter with a little grease, then tape a plastic cover on top and seal the groove with 2 small amounts of grease. I think that this reduces the amount of sand and grit running into the bearing in storage. The boat is always covered in a goodly layer of Sahara dust each spring.
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Post by ohana on Oct 4, 2020 14:52:18 GMT
No problem, will take some photos etc as well as I go.
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 6, 2020 5:41:25 GMT
This post got lost in the history of the board . Maybe Malcolm could move it to the H&T section . jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/7806/refurbish-halyard-genoa-swivelI took the swivel off by disconnecting the drum after releasing the tensioner . Slide the foil up and so you get a flexible part ( cable) to pull the drum down . Then off goes the top swivel and reconnect the drum so the forestay is back in business. My inner stay was there to prevent the mast from falling over and my gennaker halyard served as a backup . It helps alot to have an extra pair of hands next to you . Regards PS: Recently I was able to lay my hands on a complete set , top swivel , drum and alu foil to install on the baby/inner stag and thus have a storm sail ready at any time . I intend to take the drum home at the end of the year and refurbish if possible . Will take pictures and post as soon as I’ve found a new way to post pics . |
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 6, 2020 6:11:18 GMT
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 6, 2020 6:15:57 GMT
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Post by sailbleu on Oct 6, 2020 6:20:41 GMT
Sorry Malcolm , my ipad is playing tricks on me , or maybe it was just an internet glitch , I was looking for the article on the H&T to copy/past but could find it .
Regards
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 6, 2020 9:18:01 GMT
Sorry Malcolm , my ipad is playing tricks on me , or maybe it was just an internet glitch , I was looking for the article on the H&T to copy/past but could find it . Regards Don't apologise, the Hints and Tips index really needs an overhaul...🙄 |
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Post by Mistroma on Oct 6, 2020 22:08:22 GMT
I assume that the swivel in the link is an older version. I remember reading that these were pretty easy to dismantle. The LS180 on my 2009 boat looks completely different. OP said his was 12 years old and therefore around 2008, possibly the same type I have. Perhaps he will be lucky and have the older style, not the LS180 version. |
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Post by ohana on Oct 23, 2020 17:56:37 GMT
Finally managed to completely dismantle the LS180 top swivel completely today. Need to take photos of the fully dismantled unit. Ref the pdf diagram posted by Mistrona - see jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2748/facnor-headsail-curlerThe hardest part was removing item 2 on the diagram (the upper one), this is a plastic collar, solid material. In the end, I drilled some holes into it and tapped in 3# 3mm self tapping screws, used these to pull the collar out. I will need to get a new one having done this. Having done this, the next circlip became accessible, and on removal, the ball bearing assembly. The bearings are stainless steel, all seem intact. But the bearing area was a congealed mess of old oil and water. |
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Post by Mistroma on Oct 23, 2020 23:24:17 GMT
Finally managed to completely dismantle the LS180 top swivel completely today. Need to take photos of the fully dismantled unit. Ref the pdf diagram posted by Mistrona - see jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2748/facnor-headsail-curlerThe hardest part was removing item 2 on the diagram (the upper one), this is a plastic collar, solid material. In the end, I drilled some holes into it and tapped in 3# 3mm self tapping screws, used these to pull the collar out. I will need to get a new one having done this. Having done this, the next circlip became accessible, and on removal, the ball bearing assembly. The bearings are stainless steel, all seem intact. But the bearing area was a congealed mess of old oil and water. Well done. I got as far as these collars but couldn't get any further after removing both upper and lower outer circlips. We were in an area with only 2 chandleries, one about 60nm North and the other about 60nm South. The exposed coastline wasn't a place to risk furling problems and I just wanted to get it working again. Facnor weren't at all helpful regarding dismantling instructions. I'm pretty certain that sales intercepted the emails and I never got through to their technical people. The first suggestion was to squeeze in grease. Impossible to achieve and you don't want to grease Torlon bearings anyway. I was told that dismantling was impossible without "special tools" used by a dealer. I told them what I had and don't think they even knew what circlip pliers were. I didn't want to risk damaging the plastic sections and couldn't find any way to move them without damage. Really good to know that they just pull out after removing the outer circlips. I wonder what Facnor use, perhaps they simply destroy them by drilling and pulling. I would hope not but it seems likely as you had to drill and use screws as anchor points. Many thanks for the update. It will be interesting to find out how easy it is to get spares for these collars. I bet Facnor charge an arm and a leg. |
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 24, 2020 6:42:52 GMT
Excellent result Ohana. Maybe replacements can be made locally and avoid getting Facnor replacements?
Look forward to seeing some photos, would be good to add an article for Hints and Tips
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Post by ohana on Oct 24, 2020 17:01:33 GMT
Will post updates, but bear with me, life is quite busy at the moment with other things!
I plan to contact Facnor to enquire for availability and cost of spares. However, the lip seals might well be available elsewhere, at lower cost. Re the plastic collars, not sure what these are made from, or exactly how they contribute to the function and loading of the swivel - needs a bit of thought. But they are simple enough, parallel sides so could likely be machined from a suitable plastic, perhaps similar to that used for rudder bearings (good hardness and no swelling when exposed to water).
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Post by Mistroma on Oct 24, 2020 23:11:30 GMT
Will post updates, but bear with me, life is quite busy at the moment with other things! I plan to contact Facnor to enquire for availability and cost of spares. However, the lip seals might well be available elsewhere, at lower cost. Re the plastic collars, not sure what these are made from, or exactly how they contribute to the function and loading of the swivel - needs a bit of thought. But they are simple enough, parallel sides so could likely be machined from a suitable plastic, perhaps similar to that used for rudder bearings (good hardness and no swelling when exposed to water). I don't think the lip seal is very easy to find. I haven't looked for a while but my notes say it has the following printed on the top of the seal. "CHO 04522 TCF 63 81 7 1" I imaging TCF will be the manufacturer with OD 81mm, ID 63mm and thickness/height 7mm I didn't get an exact match on simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Seals-All-Oil-Seals/c19_4463/index.htmlNearest I found were: 80mm x 64mm x 8mm and 82mm x 67mm x 7mm |
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Post by so32foot on Oct 25, 2020 15:35:17 GMT
For my SD130 I bought the sealing lips at the local bearing shop. Exactly the same size. They were not in stock but I could pick them up 2 days later.
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Post by ohana on Nov 2, 2020 15:24:11 GMT
Update re spare parts from Facnor. I approached the UK distributor, Eurospars, who advised that spares are not available for this 2012 LS 180 top swivel unit. As reported elsewhere, it is seemingly sealed for life and it is not designed to be taken apart and serviced.
However, it can be taken apart as I now know, but not without sacrificing one of the larger plastic collars. As mentioned before, the lip seals had long since failed and water ingress had corroded some of the circlips and congealed the original bearing grease into a sludge.
Options - does anyone have an inside line into Facnor, to find someone who might provide some spares?
Else - I believe a new plastic collar can certainly be made, and perhaps modified to include some way to easily extract it again in the future without damaging it. As mentioned before, it is simple enough to machine, being parallel sided. Ideally, would be good to get hold of the original part drawing showing dimensions and tolerances. Also to find out from facnor what plastic material should be used to take the various loads it is designed to.
So - anyone have an inside track to Facnor to see if this information might be available?
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Post by ohana on Nov 3, 2020 11:11:05 GMT
Update - the UK agent was not able to get a part drawing from Facnor.
However I have found out that the plastic collar bearings were made for Facnor by IGUS Plastics. They have a range of standard collars on their website but none match the sizes for the Facnor unit, so this must be a special part.
I am in touch with IGUS to see how they can help. Will advise.
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 3, 2020 14:28:24 GMT
Good to hear that you are making progress. It will certainly be useful if IGUS can confirm the material of construction and you have the dimensions. I wonder if they sell something slightly oversize so that you could get it turned down a bit.
I'm pretty certain that it isn't a complex shape, just a pipe with known height,internal and external diameter. I imagine that it should be fairly simple to make if dimensions and material are known.
I thought that they were more like spacers to help align the bearings. Lateral movement being limited by the inner circlips and perhaps some smaller load transferring through to the outer circlips. Difficult to say as I've never seen mine fully dismantled.
How badly did you damage it when removing it? It sounded as if you had just drilled some holes in the top. Might they be filled or was there too much damage to the surrounding area?
Keep up the good work.
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Post by ohana on Nov 3, 2020 14:44:00 GMT
The plastic collar bearings are simple. I have one intact, it measures 81.2 mm OD, 63.8 ID and 24.7 mm long. As you say, potentially simple enough to machine from a solid bar. Seems the collars primary role is to keep the 2 alloy components concentric to each other, with the circlips either side of the ball bearing race carrying the axial load. Some thought needed for tolerances for the plastic collars, the OD of the collar was a friction fit to the inner face of the outer aluminium component but perhaps this is not critical as the collar is captive between the sets of circlips. However it cannot be too loose as this could result in localised stress on the ball race when under axial load. Pity the part drawing is not available as this would have shown tolerances.
The collar I removed is damaged beyond using again - my fault, but with what I now know, it could likely be removed without too much damage, and the extraction holes filled.
Edit: IGUS UK have already responded, one of their technical engineers is investigating with the parent company to see what info they have. They have suggested a material with good bearing strength, have stocks of this in 100mm dia bar, and capability to machine it. If I was to send them the one good part I have, they can take accurate sizes to make replacements.
So - thinking about this, depending on costs etc, could be worth making a few of these spares for those of us with these units and who have the capability to undertake this repair?
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Post by bereboot on Nov 3, 2020 15:34:55 GMT
The head swivel piece of the facnor furling system is not turning very well (12 years old). Anyone knows how to deal with this? Can it be greased with something like WD40? After reading a lot of posts concerning this problem, i am trying to grease it daily from the top with CRC56. It seems it's beginning to work , the swivel is turning much lighter now. Hope this solution works for me, and if so, i will repeat this each winter. |
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