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Post by ianpowolny on Sept 10, 2017 10:03:25 GMT
What are pros and cons of leaving the sails, both in-mast and furling jib, on or off during winter. I just received the delivery of my very first Jeanneau (OS419, 2018 model)? We remove and hose down both sails as part of our winterisation programme. They were one of our most expensive purchases so want them to last as long as possible. We do have an old main which we install over the winter. Originally we tried to leave the mast empty but the noise was unacceptable and every time we hear the foil bang inside the mast we perceive that damage is being down to both the foil and mast and hence will eventually need some intervention. I did speak to a sailmaker to make me a small dummy main but never went any further with it. Ian
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Post by zigzag on Sept 17, 2017 21:14:28 GMT
Hi all We have a SO34.2 and initially had problems pulling out the mainsail, we found as others here have that raising the boom helps, but it was bothersome getting the optimum angle.. Our workaround which has not failed for the last 5 years was to run another line through the end of the boom (ours had twin pulleys) to the traveller car, we had a spare clutch vacant. To pull out the main first we pull this new line which moves the traveller to end of the boom then use the outhaul with no problems. You can then adjust the car position to suit the amount of main required. Works for us. Hope this maybe might help others..
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Post by alenka on Sept 23, 2017 11:06:19 GMT
I have just been moored next to a Russian boat watching as the two crew struggled to deploy and furl their in-mast main. Little wonder their boom was at a large negative angle and all the outhaul forces were pulling the sail vertically down rather than laterally out.
Finding and recreating the optimum boom angle should not be difficult.
Using the topping lift, simply set the boom to parallel the foot of the sail so the gap between the two is more or less even along the full length. Lock this angle off with the topping lift, furl and unfurl the sail several times, making minor adjustments up or down until you find a sweet spot where there is minimal resistance when unfurling.
Once you have set a good boom angle for 'your' rig apply a broad piece of tape along the boom, at the goose neck end, that continues onto the mast. When satisfied to its straightness cut the tape between the mast and the boom and trim as appropriate. The idea is to be able to look along the boom and check that the two sections line up at a constant angle.
This optimum angle only needs to be set for unfurling. It tends to be easier to get a flatter sail (when furling) when it carries the weight of the boom.
Our furler turns in an anti-clockwise direction when putting the sail back in the mast. Some say that it is best to have a little wind filling the sail from the port side to reduce friction - I have found the exact opposite. When the wind is from the starboard side it tends to press the sail against the opening edge and iron out any creases. The extra friction, if there is any, makes for a tighter roll inside the mast and in turn easier to pull out next time.
Well that's what works on our boat.
These days in calm weather I don't bother adjusting the boom angle but simply grab hold of the clew at the mast and pull the sail straight out of the mast while someone takes up the slack outhaul line. It can take less than a minute and no-one breaks into a sweat - On the 43DS it seems there is considerable resistance in the lines caused by the indirect route they run between the cockpit and the mast.
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jg
Full Member
Evening Star , 2000 40DS
Posts: 40
Jeanneau Model: 2000 Sun Odyssey 40 DS
Yacht Name: Evening Star
Home Port: Westbrook, CT
Country: USA
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Post by jg on Oct 1, 2017 0:30:56 GMT
Reading what others have done with respect to boom angle when unfurling has helped considerably. This thread has turned out to be a good one. There was one post referencing vertical battens and I wanted to address that. When we purchased a new mainsail I had three vertical battens placed. It has now been four seasons and they work pretty well and the sail is flatter. With the fourth season there have been a few times when the aftmost batten (first one out of the slot when unfurling) has stuck temporarily. Working the inhale in a little and then slowly pulling on the outhaul with hand winch has been successful. I also furl and unfurl on a slight starboard tack and find that with vertical battens the "slight" just has to be a little slighter. All in all I've been happy with the decision to use the vertical battens.
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Post by alenka on Oct 11, 2017 7:57:52 GMT
If you have read this thread from start to finish then you might be aware that we had our main re-cut at the start of the season to extend its life for a season or so longer and to aid furling. It has certainly helped the latter.
With the re-cut came a need to re-adjust the leach line. The tendency was for me to always leave the tension on once set but after a bit of experimentation I think it is best to release all the tension prior to furling. It seems to make for a flatter sail as it furls.
It would be interesting to know if others find this technique a benefit or not with their sail rig.
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Post by moonshadow on Apr 24, 2018 16:23:51 GMT
I have been reading this thread and looking at how to make my furling and unfurling main easier. I suspect it will take a few tries to find best boom angle and if I need to adjust topping lift when doing this. My lift is the only line not led aft and I haven’t experimented yet. I have spare cabintop clutches and I wonder if anyone has led their lift aft? 2014 SO469
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Post by zofiasailing on May 5, 2018 15:39:27 GMT
Moonshadow Our topping lift clutch is in the cockpit. SO42DS 2006
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Post by alenka on May 5, 2018 18:38:22 GMT
Topping lift line led aft is a big plus for in-mast furling
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Post by Syrah on May 7, 2018 9:57:29 GMT
Our mast has a fair degree of pre-bend. The rigger has suggested taking this out in order to assist unfurling of the main (which has vertical battens).
We are not having problems (and we do unfurl on a 20 degree stbd tack).
I would think pre-bend would do the same as lifting the boom. Any views on this?
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Post by moonshadow on May 7, 2018 11:23:08 GMT
I have been experimenting with boom angles and looking for friction in the system. If I manually pull out extra furling line free and allow slack in the outhaul one my main seems to easily pull out from the mast by hand. My lines seem pretty stiff and I imagine there is a lot of friction one the many bends and blocks along the system. While I try to gain access to the parts within the boom it looks like replacing some outhaul and furling line with something more flexible might help a lot.
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Post by andreshs1 on May 7, 2018 12:43:43 GMT
Hi all We have a SO34.2 and initially had problems pulling out the mainsail, we found as others here have that raising the boom helps, but it was bothersome getting the optimum angle.. Our workaround which has not failed for the last 5 years was to run another line through the end of the boom (ours had twin pulleys) to the traveller car, we had a spare clutch vacant. To pull out the main first we pull this new line which moves the traveller to end of the boom then use the outhaul with no problems. You can then adjust the car position to suit the amount of main required. Works for us. Hope this maybe might help others.. Very interesting approach I'll give it a go as I'm considering changing to traditional sails if I don't find a solution. Cheers
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Post by NZL50505 on May 7, 2018 22:46:23 GMT
I’ve been reading this thread thinking thank god I have a simple stack pack! And that the extra weight, complications and risks makes in-mast furling a complete no-no due to constant nagging doubts about whether it will perform correctly. This thread confirm s my suspicion that come the day I need more help with the mainsail then in-boom furling will be my choice!
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Post by debenbar on May 8, 2018 10:23:03 GMT
Interesting thread folks! Some comments earlier about seams splitting and UV damage on furling mains. After 10 years we renewed our original equipment main and genoa. The renewal was prompted by two or three minor splits in the near vertical seam about an inch in from the aft edge of the main, and our sailmaker commented that this was due to UV damage through the slot when the sail was furled. He commented that it was hard to repair without cutting down the sail to remove the damaged areas or making a repair that would not extend the life of the sail much, and which could make the sail thicker and less easy to furl. My question is has anyone else had this type of UV damage and what did their sailmaker say / do about it?
Our sailmaker did mention that it is possible to haul a UV protective strip up the mast using the spare slot for a storm sail, does anyone do this?
We are lucky and have (crossing our fingers) never had problems with in mast furling on our various boats.
The new sails made a big improvement to the boats performance and we don't regret the investment in them.
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Post by alenka on May 9, 2018 19:39:56 GMT
andreshs1,
I would not be too hasty to ditch your in-mast furling. Tens of thousands of boats use this method without a glitch and no doubt when your boat was first commissioned it worked like a dream. As with all things mechanical things go wrong with age and lack of proper maintenance.
Okay. So you have experimented with different boom angles without much success?
So, I would suggest your first action is to wait for a calm day on the dock. Raise the boom really high, maybe, 20 degrees above the horizontal... Go to the mast and try pulling out your sail by hand. Make sure you pull backwards with no downwards pull. Does the sail come out easily? If it does your problem probably lies with friction in the lines.
If it does not want to come out there is probably friction somewhere in the system.
The popular culprit being folds in the sail or a slack winding that is lose and bulky inside the mast. This could be down to an ageing sail that has stretched. I know the boat is new to you so I would suggest you get a sailmaker onboard and get him/her to cast an expert eye. A re-cut may well give you an extra couple of years of use before having to replace the main and the cost should not be that great.
The furling mechanism itself may well need a spray of silicon lubricant just to get rid of salt and grime in the mechanism. The bottom bit is easy, doing the top will require help to either get you up the mast or someone to go up for you.
Pre-bend can also introduce problems if it is overdone because it can bend the furler causing it to make contact with the inside of the mast. The standard SO 43DS rarely came with an adjustable backstay so you have to hope that your rigger knew his stuff and didn't overdo it for in-mast. Our mast is pretty straight. Too straight in my opinion, but I spent many years on a Hunter Legend with its unique pre-bent mast and no backstay.
On my 43DS the solution was a bit of everything. A recut, plus lubrication, plus new lines, but it all made a huge difference.
Everyone worries about not being able to get the sail away. Okay this can happen but more often than not it's getting the sail out of the mast that's the issue and as such won't create dire problems.
I hear in-boom furling also has its own unique issues and even conventional rigs can go wrong. I once had a halyard get stuck at the top of the mast on a conventional rig which I can tell you was no fun at all.
Good luck and I hope you manage to get your issues resolved.
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Post by andreshs1 on May 9, 2018 23:17:12 GMT
Hi Alenka
Thanks for the tips
The furler and sail have just been serviced/checked, as I just got the mast step repaired, and took the opportunity to fully service the furler, sheaves, new lines, took the main to a sailmaker etc.
I do need to experiment more with the boom.
That being said, a few times when deploying the sail was tough, pulling by hand from the mast helped. So I will try to move the cart back before pulling the sail
Cheers
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Post by alenka on May 10, 2018 7:19:21 GMT
I would try the boom at a really acute angle as a starting point.
Prior to the service mine was getting really tricky to deploy from the cockpit. In frustration I went forward and grabbed the sail and low and behold it was childs play to pull out of the mast.
During the service I also found that one of the sheaves on the outhaul was on its last. All it takes is one sticky roller and the problems are compounded.
Good luck
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Post by andreshs1 on May 10, 2018 9:24:09 GMT
I'll be working on the boat this Saturday, if the weather is good I'll give it a try and report back Cheers
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Post by moonshadow on May 10, 2018 11:06:54 GMT
I worked on my system with a rigger yesterday. I had found it difficult to furl and unfurl my main but have found that when lines are loose I can hand pull the clew easily so the furling roller in the mast is not the problem. My outhaul car rides on a very sticky track. Improperly sprayed with something in the past. Also the way the outhaul line is run through the car to the clew ends with an almost vertical pull, almost 90deg to the boom so all friction is a problem. I’m going to clean off the crud and see what happens. But I see why pulling the car to the end of the boom makes it easier.
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Post by sailbleu on May 15, 2018 7:18:19 GMT
I’ve recently found a completely different reason why my ( fairly new) main had some difficulties getting out or in the mast . After some experiments where I hauled the main in and out by pulling directly on the main sheet and after that on the furler line near the mast and noticed that I was able to do all that without any effort . So the friction was to be found in blocks and sheaves upstream . I dismantled the end piece of the boom to find the bearing of the main sheet sheave had worn down and had a 5 mm play to it . This sheave has a 60 mm outer diameter , it was now 57 mm . That meant it had been rubbing against something , and that also means friction to get the main in or out . Just to tell it might be worth to give it a look , infact it is possible to stick a finger in the hole where the sheet goes down around the sheave and feel if there is any play. Yesterday I ordered a new one after searching the net for a similar one without the Z-spar ‘ stamp ‘ on it . It’s like finding a needle in a haystack . The bore and width of the centre piece are 8 mm & 14 mm , diameter is 60 mm . Couldn’t score a combination like that . I therefor had to take a direct Z-spar hit , 23£ for the new part & 13 £ shipment VAT not included . The blue marker lines are there to give an idea of the play. Regards
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Post by chuckr on Jul 3, 2018 11:04:38 GMT
Our mast has a fair degree of pre-bend. The rigger has suggested taking this out in order to assist unfurling of the main (which has vertical battens). We are not having problems (and we do unfurl on a 20 degree stbd tack). I would think pre-bend would do the same as lifting the boom. Any views on this? We have DS40 and have had some issue with the inmast for a the last couple of years. We found a problem with a cracked pully in the end of the boom. It was plastic and when the line got any tension on it it would be forced down between the sides of the now broken pully creating a lot of friction. so I had a Seldon guy in Marmaris come over to replace it - he did in 15 minutes - me well a lot longer and I now carry a spare. BUT in look up the mast he noted a rake in the mast and he suggested we loosen the back stay and make adjustments for a more vertical mast but I pointed to the Quest pole with radar on top and said no way - he laughed and said yes no way - so we began to drop the boom and experimented and found at almost 90 deg to mast the sail ran in and out easily - we have been underway this year for a couple of months and I can pull out a bunch of it by hand before I reach for a wench handle -
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djpowers
New Member
Posts: 9
Jeanneau Model: 2018 SO 479
Yacht Name: Salt Air
Home Port: Miami, FL
Country: US
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Post by djpowers on Jul 10, 2018 21:32:00 GMT
I have been reading this thread and looking at how to make my furling and unfurling main easier. I suspect it will take a few tries to find best boom angle and if I need to adjust topping lift when doing this. My lift is the only line not led aft and I haven’t experimented yet. I have spare cabintop clutches and I wonder if anyone has led their lift aft? 2014 SO469 I ran the top lift back to the cockpit, there were spare clutches and it really does help adjust the boom for the furling.
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Post by Syrah on Jul 15, 2018 10:35:24 GMT
[quote author=" djpowers" source="/post/41606/thread" I ran the top lift back to the cockpit, there were spare clutches and it really does help adjust the boom for the furling. [/quote] I’m thinking of running our topping lift back to the cabin top for our 42ds, what mast base block did you use? The others look to be Harken 75 ESP, but I’m wondering for the topping lift a 57 might be Ok. Thoughts anyone?
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Post by ianpowolny on Jul 16, 2018 7:19:08 GMT
I use Barton mast base blocks. Work fine and cheaper than Harken.
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Post by panoramix on Jul 2, 2020 17:52:01 GMT
I'm planning to shorten the outhaul track on the boom.
Right now it is a long track that runs from the end of the boom to 1 meter from the mast. The angle from the clew to the outhaul car is the worst on that first part of the track.
I want to shorten the track so that the outhaul car will not get any closer than 2 meters from the mast. Thereby creating a better angle on the clew when unfurling.
For reefing I don't foresee any problems.
Anyone did this before or any other views on this modification?
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Post by alenka on Jul 2, 2020 18:23:20 GMT
Yes...
Last year I experimented by using a piece of line to prevent the full length of the track being used and came to, what for us, seemed like an optimum distance.... which was much further back than the current stopper position. Over the winter we had riggers make a new position hole and move the stopper back along the boom. Alas, we have not been able to try it out for real this year!!!!
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