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Post by zofiasailing on Oct 26, 2016 19:08:26 GMT
Very interested in this thread. Except for our first trip out on our boat when we accidentally released the main halyard, allowing the tack to drop off the bottom of the furling mechanism, we have had 8 years of essentially trouble free in-mast furling and we were blissfully unaware of the annual greasing maintenance strategy. This is clearly v robust equipment to have endured this level of neglect. The magic is over. Over the past 6 months we have had a couple of minor jams when unfurling. Initially we put this down to having wound in too much ahead of our last hardstand lift. Crazily I thought that rolling in a few more inches might help keep the sail clean while in the yard. Maybe this caused the first jam, after all, the UV plus reinforcement at the clew makes this part of the sail very thick. In recent months it's been a bit stiffer and the readings on maintenance in this thread got us thinking it might be a part of the story too 🤔. We've just come into a marina and noticed a sail loft located opposite. It was our intention to drop our sails and have them checked during an impending Xmas absence but the loft at this marina was too convenient to miss the opportunity! Our own inspection of our mainsail revealed that the bolt rope has worked itself upwards by about 10 cm with consequent impact on tension of the tack, angle to the pivot point and how the first couple of furls sit. It could also explain the minor creasing in this area of the sail. Now we are inclined to think that this will be the more significant culprit in our instance. BTW the sailmaker said that bolt ropes are prone to shrinkage and could explain why ours had retracted. It's had 8 years to do it. We'll follow up with a report on the impact of the bolt rope patch on the ease of furling in a few weeks.
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Post by alenka on Oct 26, 2016 21:54:38 GMT
Funny you should mention shrinkage in the bolt rope...
We had ours replaced last year because it seemed to have lost diameter - a hard tug at the sail foot could pull it out of the grove.
Unfortunately, the sailmaker we gave the job to wasn't very communicative. Just getting it delivered back to the boat was proving extremely difficult. A friend had to stop by the loft and collect it in the end otherwise we would have been stuck in a very expensive marina for a week.
The current sailmaker has quoted me €130 for a recut to remove the stretch. It cost €200 for the new bolt rope.
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Post by sleighride on Oct 27, 2016 15:25:00 GMT
Ironically, I had a tear at the bolt rope which ran about eight inches up from the tack of the main and I pick up the repaired sail from the North loft today. I also had heavy wear along the tack where I had patched the area with sail tape; and I had that repaired as well. Like many of you, I was not aware of the need to grease the bearings inside the furler, but I have always used water (hose with nozzle) to wash away salt deposits. I have never had a jam fortunately, and I have owned the boat since we purchased it new in September of 2002. This is the third main I have had, and the current sail is about six years old. I now plan to use a proper lubricant on the bearings at the base of the furler! Thanks for this thread.
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Post by ianpowolny on Oct 27, 2016 19:36:14 GMT
Guys, what do you mean by 'the bolt rope'?
Ian
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Post by zofiasailing on Oct 27, 2016 20:35:27 GMT
A sail on a furler is slid up and held into the foil along the luff by the bolt rope. Effectively it's a chord stitched tightly into a narrow sleeve along the luff. Bolt ropes are sometimes also used to secure awning panels along booms etc. It's not a threaded bit of metal Hope this description is adequate.
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Post by ianpowolny on Oct 27, 2016 21:12:56 GMT
Ok so that's what Z-Spars UK call the luff rope.
Thanks
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jg
Full Member
Evening Star , 2000 40DS
Posts: 40
Jeanneau Model: 2000 Sun Odyssey 40 DS
Yacht Name: Evening Star
Home Port: Westbrook, CT
Country: USA
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Post by jg on Oct 28, 2016 2:49:04 GMT
My experience is also to keep the mast straight and to furl a little bit off the wind on a port tack. But through the years the problems with bunching in the mast have seemed to be related to having the boom above the horizontal. I had a new mainsail made two years ago with three vertical battens and what works best is to let the topping lift free, lightly tension the boom vang to keep the boom at or just below horizontal. I know the is contrary to everyone else's posts. I keep my furling line on my port side and unfurling line to starboard, use manual cabin top winches, and always keep the opposite line tensioned to avoid folds. Furling and unfurling lines are changed every few seasons. In addition to hosing down inside the mast the Z Spar folks have recommended Boeshield spray lubricant. With unfurling the furling line kept skipping a turn of the screw and bunching in the mechanism until I placed a block about 8 inches above the center of the rigid vang and led the furling line through that to decrease the angle entering the furling screw and that has worked for a decade.
When laying on or removing the mainsail I tie a length of thin line to the halyard and tack shackles to be able to retrieve them if neede (lucky so far) and then use a right angle Allen wrench for the tack and Phillips head driver for the halyard while grasping with two fingers through the opposite access opening.
I have not been able to solve the problem of the furled mainsail making a racket when we are docked and the wind is up. A standard halyard would be bungeed away from the mast but that isn't possible with in mast furling. My dock neighbors would appreciate any suggestions.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 30, 2016 12:48:20 GMT
I have read a couple of times for the mast to be straight. I understand the concept of needing the mast straight as the revolving foil is inside the mast but my mast does have bend and I have never had a problem with my furling main. I am not sure if "straight" means literally dead straight or less bent than some other masts with a conventional main so I added the photos just to say you can have this much bend and still live a happy life. Regards, Trevor
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Post by sleighride on Oct 30, 2016 16:04:52 GMT
I have about the same amount of bend in my mast with no problems with fuller in fourteen years.
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Post by zofiasailing on Nov 2, 2016 20:11:51 GMT
Just checking-in to give the verdict on the replacement of the bolt/luff rope to our mailsail. It was only a short piece the size of a drinking straw. The difference after replacement was HUGE! The in-mast furling is restored to 'as-new' operation. Easy. Smooth. Fast. Winches are manual so I could not be happier! In time, the creasing near the tack should ease. It's appearance as well as the greater stiffness of furling should have been the clues that something was wrong. (Frog in the pot syndrome?)I was looking at the sail in that area for some months but without a trained eye! Btw our mast looks like Trevor's.
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43 DS Adastra Dublin
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Jeanneau Model: SO 43 DS
Yacht Name: Adastra
Home Port: Dun Laoghaire
Country: Ireland
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Post by 43 DS Adastra Dublin on Nov 15, 2016 8:51:17 GMT
Ian, Firstly, no claims to be an expert on in-mast furling. Here are my findings for what they are worth. When we bought our 43DS four seasons ago it was our first experience of in-mast. On the day of the survey the wind was F6 gusting higher. Too windy to unfurl on the quayside and out on the water we unfurled just 50% due the sea state and wind. A week later when we had taken delivery and having a full rig inspection the sail jammed at the 50% mark when unfurling due to a large crease. It was easily cleared but the riggers assistant pointed out that the main halyard was too tight and easing this certainly made for easier operation. During our first three weeks on the water we were very mindful not to get creases when furling because this only led to problems unfurling. Ditto for second season too and we didn't have any jams in the whole ten weeks we were cruising. Season three started out with big problems. The sail didn't want to come out the mast at all on our first trip out and had to be pulled out at the mast by hand... Very hard work. This made us extra careful. Despite this extra care the same thing happened on our first day out following a mid-summer break. To unfurl we had to pull a foot of sail out by hand, tighten the sail in the mast, using the furling line, and then pull another foot out... A visit to our friendly sail maker followed and by lifting the boom about 10 degrees above the horizontal all seemed to work. At the start of this season things had deteriorated even further and just getting the sail to furl after re-fitting was a hard slog. This time rigging experts came out and pointed out the following. The sail was suffering a little stretch and not furling tight. The furling and outhaul lines were stiff with age and causing extra, considerable, friction. Fine dust (red sand from the Sahara which we get in Greece from time to time with southerly rain) was clogging the furling mechanism. However, we found after lubrication of the mechanism if we lifted the boom to around 15-20 degrees above the horizontal when un-furling all went well. Sticking with this technique all went very, very well this season. No jams. In-fact a real joy. So here's what we do. Boom above the horizontal by approx 15-20 degrees. The aim is for the foot of the sail to unfurl parallel to the boom without any downwards pull on the sail. We make sure the main sheet and vang were completely free. Once unfurled we simply let the topping lift off and allow the boom position to be, initially, set by the sail. Keeping this lower boom position we furl using a little back pressure on the outhaul. This year not a single crease when furling. Incidentally we always winch the sail out by hand, but furl using the electric winch (carefully) to get a good steady back pressure! When the sail is in the mast we lock off the out haul and give an extra tweak to tighten the sail and lock off the furling line to make sure it remains tight in the mast... Reposition the boom to around the horizontal so it looks better. Not forgetting to lift it when it comes to the next unfurl. The riggers are now sorting out a full winter service of the mechanism. Replacing a number of sheets and line. The sail is being evaluated for a re-cut to remove the stretch if possible. If this makes in-mast sound too problematic to bother with then nothing could be further from the truth. I would not go back to slab reefing. All sails and rig combinations are different so I don't think there is one set of rules that work for every boat other than avoid down pressure on the sail when unfurling. Don't over tighten the main halyard. And don't allow creases to form when furling into the mast! We are hoping that following this winter work we will be able to pull the sail out of the mast easily by hand from the cockpit as I have seen newer boats do - We won't know until next year. Fingers crossed.
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43 DS Adastra Dublin
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Jeanneau Model: SO 43 DS
Yacht Name: Adastra
Home Port: Dun Laoghaire
Country: Ireland
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Post by 43 DS Adastra Dublin on Jan 16, 2017 16:41:35 GMT
I suspect our problems last year were down to my lack of maintenance coupled with ageing lines that have introduced a lot of friction and resistance. I will post my findings after the full service this winter. The riggers attending at the start of the season suggested spraying the lower furling mechanism with WD40 on a regular basis as well as cleaning and spraying the boom track. No mention of washing it down with fresh water. It was also suggested fitting a cart with roller bearings rather than the standard one would help. I have seen video on YouTube where people can pull the sail out of the mast at the cockpit by hand. Trevor, it seems like me you have to winch yours out. I don't use the electric winch for unfurling as there is no feel or indication as to how much pressure is needed and if it jams I suspect I could do a lot of damage to the sail. Jeanneau hulls are quite quick so you will have no trouble overtaking many boats if you trim and tweak your sails. I will concede that a like for like boat fitted with slab reefing is likely to be the quicker of the two but I will be sailing for more years using in-mast furling than I would be slab reefing so it's a compromise I am prepared to make.
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43 DS Adastra Dublin
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Jeanneau Model: SO 43 DS
Yacht Name: Adastra
Home Port: Dun Laoghaire
Country: Ireland
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Post by 43 DS Adastra Dublin on Jan 16, 2017 16:42:38 GMT
I agree with alenka and jg that a new thread about furling unfurling and all things in-mast is a good idea, so here we go. We also furl the sail with some tension on it. Usually this is the boom weight. We do get some folds but they have never been a problem. Once the sail is furled we lift the boom above 90 o. Having done this we are ready to unfurl. With the boom above 90 o it always seems easy to get the sail out. The main is two seasons old, so very little stretch in it to date. It is interesting to hear how other deal with this. Obviously one size does not fit all. Our set up is the outhaul on the starboard side and the furling line on the port side. This allows us to better control the furling operation especially in light airs. With the furling line on the port side we can, if all else fails, furl using the electric winch. This is only in exceptional circumstances in an F8 in the Irish Sea. bad seamanship on my part. A bowline is no longer used on the outhaul car and the knot has been changed to a halyard knot. This just gives a slightly better sail shape and pulls the foot of the sail nearer the boom. With the new sail we noticed that pulling the main sail halyard to tight prevented us from getting the clew as far back as we'd like. In reducing the halyard tension by a very small amount we can get a very flat sail when close hauled. I have also bought a set of tee bar Allen wrenches. This makes get in to the sail shackles in the mast a lot easier. Capturing the head and tack shackles in the sail loops using insulating tape has prevented me dropping the whole shackle in to the mast. Ok alenka and jg over to you - oh and sailbleu
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43 DS Adastra Dublin
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Jeanneau Model: SO 43 DS
Yacht Name: Adastra
Home Port: Dun Laoghaire
Country: Ireland
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Post by 43 DS Adastra Dublin on Jan 16, 2017 16:55:08 GMT
Dear All SO 43 DS 2005 I have been working on my reefing for a few weeks now and think that the main problem, apart from stiff lines and friction and salt etc, is what Alenka says. Raising the boom causes the outhaul to pull on the foot of the sail rather than leech. Pulling along the foot with no pull on the leech has the effect of turning the foil directly where it is supported by the bearing. Thus the foil does not move aft under the outhaul pressure but rotates. Any tension on the leech is transferred up to the spreader region and causes the foil to move back against the slot and jams the main. I have just fitted new sails made by Watson of Malahide Dublin. Expensive but excellent. the main is cut very flat and convex leech. It worked a dream. We found that going on starboard tack just off the wind made it work even better since looking from the top, the sail rolls anitclockwise and the sail seems to roll better that way with no pressure on the slot.
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Post by alenka on Jan 20, 2017 9:26:47 GMT
The age of both sails and sheets clearly has a big influence on how well these systems work. I should have my re-cut mainsail back on the boat in a few weeks, it will be interesting to see what impact, if any, this work has had.
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Post by sabmd42 on Jan 24, 2017 23:11:03 GMT
There seem to be several different factors that affect ease of furling and unfurling. Whether the boom should be level or above horizontal really depends on the cut of the sail and will vary. On my boat, a SO 45.2, I have maximized the sail area and have a conventional sized roach with air battens to hold the shape. These deflate to furl into the mast, but between the battens and the size of the sail, there is no extra room inside the mast. I had a problem last season with the sail getting jammed about halfway up the mast until I realized that the yard had tuned the mast with a small amount of pre-bend, similar to Trevor's photos. Once I re-tuned it and made the mast perfectly straight, the problem disappeared. There is no reason to have any bend in the mast with in-mast furling. The foil inside the mast will be straight independent of any bend in the mast. In a conventional mainsail, bend in the mast has a great effect on the shape of the sail, more bend to make it flatter and less bend to make it fuller.
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Post by sleighride on Jan 25, 2017 2:19:06 GMT
I have had a different experience with bend in the mast. On my 2003 DS43, I have a six year old North mainsail with vertical battens, it is a Radial Soft Norlam construction (Mylar film surrounded by soft polyester fabric.) I also have an older North Genoa, a 130 3DL. In order to get the rig properly tuned for going to weather in 18-20 knots, I am forced to tighten the turnbuckles to keep shjrouds from flopping to leeward. This results in a slight bend to the mast. I can usually furl the main in and out by hand around the companion way winches, except to furl the sail into the mast when the wind is blowing over 15 knots, and then I need three wraps on the winch which requires the winch handle as well. I do not have electric winches. I have not had jams or problems, but I am careful to release the vang and to keep slack on the mainsheet both going in and out with the furling lines. The main is still in good condition, as is the Genoa, but I take both sails off in the winter (replacing the main with the original flat sail that came with the boat in order to keep the furler from clanging and disturbing my neighbors or causing damage to the furler or the mast.
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Post by saltymetals on Jan 31, 2017 17:23:01 GMT
An interesting exchange of techniques and thanks to Ian for starting it. I have a few comments of my own:
1)On which tack to furl?: Surely it is best to furl on starboard tack so the main enters the slot straight onto the furling bar inside the mast , instead of being on port tack which means the main will bear against the starboard side of the slot before it then bends through about 45 degress and goes on to the furling bar. (My setup is such that the main furls onto the starboard side of the central furling bar which is turning anticlockwise when looking from above, when furling)
2)Not WD 40. Not good for synthetic bearings and housings and may cause them to break up eventually. Much better the MacLube Sailcote spray or better still the MacLube One Spot. If the guys in Greece cannot find it then why not just order online and have it delivered to the marina? Not many chandleries stock the One Spot anyway so it is easier online. I also spray the MacLube spray on to the lower part of the sail so that it slips out of the slot with less friction.
3)Furling Line: I replaced mine last summer. Easiest to do it with the main fully furled so it only needs a couple of turns to be threaded onto the furling drum. This is a very tight fit and i resolved it by using one of those long flexible springs that plumbers use to unblcok drains and pipes. Having got the spring around the furling drum a couple of times i simply tied the end of the new furling line onto the end of the spring and pulled it through.
4)Boom Height or fairlead stopper? : I had a lot of jamming at the first fold when unfurling. Rather than adjust boom height (fiddly, release vang, tension topping lift only to have to reverse it all afterwards, every single time you use the main), I moved the stopper for the fairlead car on the boom. Instead of 1 metre from the goose neck i now have it 2 metres from the goose neck. This gives a more horizontal pull on the clew when unfurling and it solved my jamming immediately and having done it once i never need to touch it again. Others have also mentioned halyard tension since too much forces the rolled sail against the slot about half way up the mast. (Depends on how much bend you have in your mast as to whether this is a consideration or not).
5)Electric winch: so much easier for both unfurling and furling. As a precaution i only put two turns on the drum so that if something jams it will slip on the drum.
6) Vertical Battens: On my previous boat (Beneteau Oceanis 400) i changed the existing in-mast furling main to a vertically battened main which was a great success and you get about 25% more sail area as well as better shape. Not sure if i have the courage to do the same on my 43ds when i come to get a new main since the jamming problem is a bit borderline and i am afraid that the slightest extra thickness might bring back my jamming problem again.
Andrew
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Post by alenka on Jul 2, 2017 20:01:41 GMT
Eureka
Some time ago I posted saying that I was having a re-cut on my main sail to try and sort out an ever worsening in-mast deployment situation. Putting the mainsail away was fine but getting it out of the mast was quite an arduous task.
Well, the over winter work not only included a sail re-cut but a full lube of the mechanism, plus new lines.
The result has been a much, much easier operation so far this summer - in fact the easiest (less effort) experience in the last four years. However, it still requires a bit of work on the winch, or so I thought. If like me you are envious of those that can simply pull the main sail by hand straight out of the mast then I strongly suggest you give it a try.
It is, on the 43DS, unbelievably easy!!!
My new technique is to head directly and slowly into wind, grab hold of the clew and gently pull towards the back of the boom whilst a second person simply takes up the slack on the outhaul. It works like a dream with no need to raise the boom on the topping lift.
It seems after all these years of blaming the sail the problems lies with the friction in the lines.
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 3, 2017 4:32:37 GMT
I've had all the problems as described above , all went away when I bought a new sail . You can apply some tricks to get the mainsail out ( that 's usually the problem ) but at the end of the day a new sail is inevitable . Having said that , lately Ive been having problems with unfurling again , this time I tracked it down to the furler line that get's jammed into the spiral by missing a step . It' s always at the beginning of the unfurl where the rope's angle to the spiral / worm is the sharpest . Silicone spraying the spiral helps the rope to properly set in place. It's old , hard ( and also worn) so washing it and have it soak in a bucket of fresh water with added softener for a day helped also . But again , only tricks until I find the time to get the main down , lift the foil and take the furler out so I can replace the line .
I'm considering of leaving the sail on (and in ) detach the foil from spiral/ worm and lift up the whole bunch with the halyard so I can get the furler out . Not sure if that will work with the main still in the mast . Anyone had any experience with that ? Please me/us know. Thanks
Regards
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Post by rdubs on Jul 6, 2017 5:26:46 GMT
Bought a 2013 SO469 a couple months ago. Maybe it is just my boat, but the thick lines holding the mainsail tack won't go back in if I let the mainsail out all the way (in-mast furling). As a result, I have to be very mindful and stop the unfurling short of exposing the tack. If the tack comes out, to bring the sail back in I have to go up to the mast and push the line holding the clew back inside the mast using the marlinspike on my rigging knife. I plan to put a piece of tape or a marking on the inhaul line to mark how far I can let the main unfurl before the clew gets exposed. I wonder if the clew area of the sail wasn't reinforced somehow, I can't imagine the boat was built that way.
Also, unrelated, I've read in other places that many folks recommend, instead of heading straight into the wind to furl in the main, head on a starboard fairly close reach. I'm guessing that way the sail bends around the mast a little bit which helps iron out any wrinkles right before it goes into the furler. I've heard wrinkles are the #1 cause of jams.
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 6, 2017 7:18:42 GMT
Bought a 2013 SO469 a couple months ago. Maybe it is just my boat, but the thick lines holding the mainsail tack won't go back in if I let the mainsail out all the way (in-mast furling). As a result, I have to be very mindful and stop the unfurling short of exposing the tack. If the tack comes out, to bring the sail back in I have to go up to the mast and push the line holding the clew back inside the mast using the marlinspike on my rigging knife. I plan to put a piece of tape or a marking on the inhaul line to mark how far I can let the main unfurl before the clew gets exposed. I wonder if the clew area of the sail wasn't reinforced somehow, I can't imagine the boat was built that way. Also, unrelated, I've read in other places that many folks recommend, instead of heading straight into the wind to furl in the main, head on a starboard fairly close reach. I'm guessing that way the sail bends around the mast a little bit which helps iron out any wrinkles right before it goes into the furler. I've heard wrinkles are the #1 cause of jams.[/font] I also try to do that when possible , be it port or starboard . Regards
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skimsail
New Member
Posts: 1
Jeanneau Model: SO 419
Home Port: IL
Country: US
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Post by skimsail on Aug 31, 2017 3:03:17 GMT
What are pros and cons of leaving the sails, both in-mast and furling jib, on or off during winter. I just received the delivery of my very first Jeanneau (OS419, 2018 model)?
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Post by alenka on Sept 9, 2017 19:36:31 GMT
Sailmakers will probably suggest remove both
The headsail will suffer UV damage.
The mainsail is however better protected in the mast and if removed you will be driven crazy by the furler constantly tapping on the inside of the mast.
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Post by MalcolmP on Sept 9, 2017 21:08:29 GMT
What are pros and cons of leaving the sails, both in-mast and furling jib, on or off during winter. I just received the delivery of my very first Jeanneau (OS419, 2018 model)? Definitely remove the headsail, easy job. With the in mast main if you do not remove at least cover the protruding part with a good cover
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