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Post by ianpowolny on Oct 9, 2016 14:02:56 GMT
I agree with alenka and jg that a new thread about furling unfurling and all things in-mast is a good idea, so here we go. We also furl the sail with some tension on it. Usually this is the boom weight. We do get some folds but they have never been a problem. Once the sail is furled we lift the boom above 90 o. Having done this we are ready to unfurl. With the boom above 90 o it always seems easy to get the sail out. The main is two seasons old, so very little stretch in it to date. It is interesting to hear how other deal with this. Obviously one size does not fit all. Our set up is the outhaul on the starboard side and the furling line on the port side. This allows us to better control the furling operation especially in light airs. With the furling line on the port side we can, if all else fails, furl using the electric winch. This is only in exceptional circumstances in an F8 in the Irish Sea. bad seamanship on my part. A bowline is no longer used on the outhaul car and the knot has been changed to a halyard knot. This just gives a slightly better sail shape and pulls the foot of the sail nearer the boom. With the new sail we noticed that pulling the main sail halyard to tight prevented us from getting the clew as far back as we'd like. In reducing the halyard tension by a very small amount we can get a very flat sail when close hauled. I have also bought a set of tee bar Allen wrenches. This makes get in to the sail shackles in the mast a lot easier. Capturing the head and tack shackles in the sail loops using insulating tape has prevented me dropping the whole shackle in to the mast. Ok alenka and jg over to you - oh and sailbleu
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Post by sleighride on Oct 11, 2016 3:37:37 GMT
Ian, what do you mean by a halyard knot? Perhaps a buntline hitch?
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gui
Full Member
Posts: 40
Jeanneau Model: SO37
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Post by gui on Oct 11, 2016 8:46:58 GMT
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 11, 2016 9:34:40 GMT
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 11, 2016 9:42:53 GMT
There is a similar guide (using more wraps) - although if the knot is winched tight after tying less wraps work fine at: www.sailcare.com/how-to-tie-a-blood-knot.shtmlSome dispute but it may well be called a blood or half blood knot
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Post by ianpowolny on Oct 11, 2016 11:29:42 GMT
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Post by alenka on Oct 14, 2016 8:50:59 GMT
Ian,
Firstly, no claims to be an expert on in-mast furling. Here are my findings for what they are worth.
When we bought our 43DS four seasons ago it was our first experience of in-mast.
On the day of the survey the wind was F6 gusting higher. Too windy to unfurl on the quayside and out on the water we unfurled just 50% due the sea state and wind. A week later when we had taken delivery and having a full rig inspection the sail jammed at the 50% mark when unfurling due to a large crease. It was easily cleared but the riggers assistant pointed out that the main halyard was too tight and easing this certainly made for easier operation.
During our first three weeks on the water we were very mindful not to get creases when furling because this only led to problems unfurling. Ditto for second season too and we didn't have any jams in the whole ten weeks we were cruising.
Season three started out with big problems. The sail didn't want to come out the mast at all on our first trip out and had to be pulled out at the mast by hand... Very hard work. This made us extra careful. Despite this extra care the same thing happened on our first day out following a mid-summer break. To unfurl we had to pull a foot of sail out by hand, tighten the sail in the mast, using the furling line, and then pull another foot out...
A visit to our friendly sail maker followed and by lifting the boom about 10 degrees above the horizontal all seemed to work.
At the start of this season things had deteriorated even further and just getting the sail to furl after re-fitting was a hard slog. This time rigging experts came out and pointed out the following.
The sail was suffering a little stretch and not furling tight.
The furling and outhaul lines were stiff with age and causing extra, considerable, friction.
Fine dust (red sand from the Sahara which we get in Greece from time to time with southerly rain) was clogging the furling mechanism.
However, we found after lubrication of the mechanism if we lifted the boom to around 15-20 degrees above the horizontal when un-furling all went well. Sticking with this technique all went very, very well this season. No jams. In-fact a real joy.
So here's what we do.
Boom above the horizontal by approx 15-20 degrees. The aim is for the foot of the sail to unfurl parallel to the boom without any downwards pull on the sail. We make sure the main sheet and vang were completely free.
Once unfurled we simply let the topping lift off and allow the boom position to be, initially, set by the sail.
Keeping this lower boom position we furl using a little back pressure on the outhaul. This year not a single crease when furling.
Incidentally we always winch the sail out by hand, but furl using the electric winch (carefully) to get a good steady back pressure!
When the sail is in the mast we lock off the out haul and give an extra tweak to tighten the sail and lock off the furling line to make sure it remains tight in the mast... Reposition the boom to around the horizontal so it looks better. Not forgetting to lift it when it comes to the next unfurl.
The riggers are now sorting out a full winter service of the mechanism. Replacing a number of sheets and line. The sail is being evaluated for a re-cut to remove the stretch if possible.
If this makes in-mast sound too problematic to bother with then nothing could be further from the truth. I would not go back to slab reefing.
All sails and rig combinations are different so I don't think there is one set of rules that work for every boat other than avoid down pressure on the sail when unfurling. Don't over tighten the main halyard. And don't allow creases to form when furling into the mast!
We are hoping that following this winter work we will be able to pull the sail out of the mast easily by hand from the cockpit as I have seen newer boats do - We won't know until next year. Fingers crossed.
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Post by tilo on Oct 14, 2016 22:28:06 GMT
To add to alenka's comments, all of which I very much appreciate, I picked up an interesting tip while talking to the Z-Spar people at the Annapolis Boat Show this week: whenever you wash down the deck and fittings after an outing, just stick the hose into the mast above the furling mechanism to flush out the salt and grime. Maybe that's SOP for most people, but it was news to me.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 16, 2016 1:36:52 GMT
We have been extremely happy with in mast furling since we bought our SO42DS in 2012. I use an electric coachroof winch to pull on the outhaul and to furl. We have just moved onto the boat for a few months and about 2 months ago, the sail jammed slightly when pulling out because the sail had bunched up a little and got jammed in the mast opening. All fixed by pulling the sail back in under a little tension and then unfurling again. This is the first issue we have ever had. Recently I was speaking to an experienced skipper and his passing remark as walking away was they work very well if properly maintained. I sheepishly agreed and then wondered what maintenance is required as I have simply used mine without any thought for the maintenance of the furler at all. A little research has revealed I should be greasing the bits at least once per year! That also sounds like a good tip from tilo, hosing out the mechanism after use. I should find out what sort of grease to spray into the gears. In the last week I have noticed a small separation at the top of the mainsail on one of the seams. We will get that fixed this week so if the wind drops as predicted, the main will come down in the next day or so. I have not had a problem with the angle of the boom yet and I must admit to not always being into the wind when furling or setting the sail. I do have creases in this sail as it is the original sail from 2008 and I think a little baggy so I am thinking of when may be a good time to replace it. I hope for another couple of years. When the sail gets to the sail maker tomorrow he may say in the next couple of days!! At this stage we are happy with the way she sails and I wouldn't swap the convenience of the configuration we have for a conventional main. I know that some say that cruisers with furlers don't know or care about sail shape. I am always tweaking the sail when we are travelling, watching the tell tales, adjusting outhaul, traveller and mainsheet to try to get the best out of what we have got. I am learning a lot but have a long way to go before I feel I have it nailed but adjusting these things is part of the fun for me. I know it is not a racer, but getting the best performance out of our configuration is a part of the satisfaction of travelling using the power of the wind. Trevor
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Post by alenka on Oct 16, 2016 10:00:49 GMT
I suspect our problems last year were down to my lack of maintenance coupled with ageing lines that have introduced a lot of friction and resistance.
I will post my findings after the full service this winter.
The riggers attending at the start of the season suggested spraying the lower furling mechanism with WD40 on a regular basis as well as cleaning and spraying the boom track. No mention of washing it down with fresh water. It was also suggested fitting a cart with roller bearings rather than the standard one would help.
I have seen video on YouTube where people can pull the sail out of the mast at the cockpit by hand. Trevor, it seems like me you have to winch yours out. I don't use the electric winch for unfurling as there is no feel or indication as to how much pressure is needed and if it jams I suspect I could do a lot of damage to the sail.
Jeanneau hulls are quite quick so you will have no trouble overtaking many boats if you trim and tweak your sails. I will concede that a like for like boat fitted with slab reefing is likely to be the quicker of the two but I will be sailing for more years using in-mast furling than I would be slab reefing so it's a compromise I am prepared to make.
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 16, 2016 10:28:33 GMT
...The riggers attending at the start of the season suggested spraying the lower furling mechanism with WD40 on a regular basis as well as cleaning and spraying the boom track... WD40 has its place, but I find its use on deck leads to stains and dirt accumulating. Much more expensive but the dry silicones like www.mclubemarine.com/sailkote/ or ptfe like: marinestore.co.uk/Holt_pro_Lube_Spray_PTFE.html much more preferable
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Post by rxc on Oct 16, 2016 14:16:51 GMT
I would have three suggestions to add to this thread.
First, make sure that your mast is straight. One rigger told me that the mast should have a slight bend fwd, but the manufacturers say that the mast should be straight. I originally had some problems, and it was due to a bent mast, but they disappeared once I straightened it out by tweaking the lowers.
Second, if you take down your sail for a while but leave the boat in the water, you should run a line up the mast that wraps around the furling tube in order to avoid the dreadfull racket that will ensue as the boat rocks in the slip. Nearby liveaboards will be VERY unhappy if you do not do this. It will also help to have this line exit the mast about half way up, and then lead it aft and tension it.
Third, lubricate the RF mechanism occasionally, but very sparingly. I have a lubricant from my sailmaker/rigger called "one drop" (from Harken, I believe) and you just have to put one drop into the bearings each year to keep them turning well.
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Post by ianpowolny on Oct 16, 2016 17:19:15 GMT
Great that we are having this discussion.
When our furling line became worn and hard I was very worried about changing it out. I removed the sail and found that the job wasn't that difficult.
This season I had to adjust the amount of line on the helix - not sure how I end up with too little. At the time I had a good friend on board who accurately read the Z-Spars instruction that told us it was possible to change the line with the sail I the mast. Apart from having to tickle the 1/2 moon section from the bottom of the mast with a screwdriver we had furler out, adjusted and re-installed within 30 minutes. Now to buy 15m of 10mm rope as a reel end for the furler. (80p a meter from MarineScene)
Have any of you considered changing out the outhaul sheaves. I did mine last year as they were worn out.
Ian
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Post by alenka on Oct 16, 2016 22:10:56 GMT
Malcom,
Thanks for these links.
I am not a lover of WD40 and have not used it to date on the rig due for the reasons you state. Trying to buy products that are not 'main stream' isn't all that easy in Greece however.
Do you happen to know the flammability of the two products you suggest? I would hate to buy either only to have them confiscated at the airport because them fall into the dangerous goods category.
Thanks
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Post by sleighride on Oct 16, 2016 22:20:10 GMT
I plan to r outhaul sheaves this winter or spring, as one is damaged with a chunk out of it. What I have noticed over the last ten years with the outhaul connections is severe wear on the shackle which attaches to the outhaul line. Where it wears against the second shackle, metal to metal, there is severe wear and I have had to replace it three times over the 14 years I have owned the boat. Two years ago, it had worn through more than fifty percent; and we are talking heavy duty stainless here. I am talking about the shackle that attaches to outhaul slide assembly that slides along the boom each time the sail is furled in and out. It must be inspected regularly, at least on my rig. Also, I have no electric winches and most of the time I am able to furl both in and out by hand unless wind is blowing over twenty knots when I bring sail in; and then I need to use the manual halyard winch to get it in. That way I can tell if there is a problem before I tear the sail.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 17, 2016 7:34:46 GMT
I know this sounds like I am an extremely lazy individual but I use the winch not necessarily because I have to but rather because I prefer to. I know the risk of breaking something is greater but I am watching very carefully when the sail is going in or coming out. The only time I have caused myself some serious heartburn over using the electric winch is when under pressure a couple of times I have failed to release the furling line clutches and I have tried to furl with the clutches closed. That is a really bad feeling as one side comes in to the winch and the other side is held by the closed clutch. No real damage to anything as I have woken up to the problem reasonably quickly but that is the worst issue I have encountered. The winch just does it so smoothly, quickly and effortlessly it is my absolute preference.
Regards,
Trevor, ..........an extremely lazy individual.....
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 17, 2016 8:38:44 GMT
Malcom, Thanks for these links. I am not a lover of WD40 and have not used it to date on the rig due for the reasons you state. Trying to buy products that are not 'main stream' isn't all that easy in Greece however. Do you happen to know the flammability of the two products you suggest? I would hate to buy either only to have them confiscated at the airport because them fall into the dangerous goods category. Thanks Here is the Harken Mclube datasheet: www.harken.co.uk/uploadedFiles/Product_Support/PDF/ML1-ML2_Sailkote-Domestic-Aerosol_MSDS_Eng.PDFpretty flammable!! I could only see 1 distributor in Greece www.harken.co.uk/locator.aspxCan't find a data sheet for Prolube HT5316 , but strongly I suspect it will also have hydro carbons. Their email is: sales@holt.eu if you want to check. but Holt do have a distributor in Greece Nautilus Ltd. # 2109854238 25 Nik, Plastira Kalamaria , Thessaloniki, PC 55132, Greece and looks like quite a few shops: www.nautilus.gr/site/page/SHOPS?CMCCode=1005&extLang=LG
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Post by Trevor on Oct 18, 2016 8:00:05 GMT
I have the main sail off getting repaired so today sprayed some very light lithium grease into the moving bits. I realise that it may attract dirt but the Selden manual says use grease so in the absence of their Selden grease I used the spray stuff out of a can.
Lets see how that goes over the long term.
Trevor
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Post by ianpowolny on Oct 18, 2016 15:35:44 GMT
I know this sounds like I am an extremely lazy individual but I use the winch not necessarily because I have to but rather because I prefer to. I know the risk of breaking something is greater but I am watching very carefully when the sail is going in or coming out. The only time I have caused myself some serious heartburn over using the electric winch is when under pressure a couple of times I have failed to release the furling line clutches and I have tried to furl with the clutches closed. That is a really bad feeling as one side comes in to the winch and the other side is held by the closed clutch. No real damage to anything as I have woken up to the problem reasonably quickly but that is the worst issue I have encountered. The winch just does it so smoothly, quickly and effortlessly it is my absolute preference. Regards, Trevor, ..........an extremely lazy individual..... I think I'll give this a try. Ian
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Post by alenka on Oct 18, 2016 15:53:51 GMT
In truth....
I think using the electric winch to furl the sail is the best option.
I set the auto-pilot to maintain a heading and with one hand on the outhaul line to maintain a tension and a finger on the button the mainsail is away in a matter of seconds.
The danger lies in using an electric winch to unfurl.
At least in my book.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 18, 2016 21:12:20 GMT
Alenka,
That is exactly how I furl the main. Outhaul in right hand but around the starboard coach roof winch to keep a little tension. Finger on high speed button for port side coach roof electric winch with endless furling line around that winch. Push the button and watch the magic take place!!
Unfurling very easy with outhaul 90 degrees around starboard winch and on the port side electric winch and once again push the high speed button and watch the magic take place.
So easy,
Regards,
Trevor
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Post by cpetku on Oct 21, 2016 2:58:35 GMT
In my case I have a slight smile in my boom which I believe is from the vang fighting the topping lift or leach at some point in the boats life. When furling in this can cause the foot to become loose if the Vang and main sheet aren't eased. A loose foot means the top of the sail wraps tight and the bottom is loose causing folds. This is due to the way the outhaul works with the boom tensioning the leach which eases the foot. Had several Jams this year trying to figure this one out...
I also noticed the furling guard has started to come loose about 25' up and needs to be replaced as it wants to wrap inside the mast as well.
This year the boat will be stored mast down so I can do inspection and maintenance items like the guards, furling line, anchor light and TV antenna. I frogged up the mast a couple of times, but this is just a little too much effort to do all of these while hanging from a couple of ascenders.
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Post by Tigidal on Oct 24, 2016 16:42:31 GMT
We have a Selden unit on our 379 and all winches are manual. What's the best strategy for bringing out the main, but to a reefed position? I typically attempt to keep the furling line wrapped on the winch and provide periods of slack, while pulling on the outhaul... but this isn't always successful. In higher winds the sail can pull out more than I want, even while sailing close to dead upwind.
Another question is how do you replace the furling line on the Selden units? After only a couple seasons, the line is already badly flattened in some areas from being under load on the furling drum.
Thanks.
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Post by alenka on Oct 25, 2016 17:08:43 GMT
Tigidal,
I rarely apply much back pressure when unfurling so simply pull an amount of furling line through the clutch and then lock it off. If the wind does pull the sail out then it stops once this line goes taught. I always err on the side of caution. If I find I have not let enough sail out it is easy to ease out a little more under control on the winch.
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Post by dslittle on Oct 26, 2016 8:59:51 GMT
So here's what we do. Boom above the horizontal by approx 15-20 degrees. The aim is for the foot of the sail to unfurl parallel to the boom without any downwards pull on the sail. We make sure the main sheet and vang were completely free. Once unfurled we simply let the topping lift off and allow the boom position to be, initially, set by the sail. Keeping this lower boom position we furl using a little back pressure on the outhaul. This year not a single crease when furling. Incidentally we always winch the sail out by hand, but furl using the electric winch (carefully) to get a good steady back pressure! When the sail is in the mast we lock off the out haul and give an extra tweak to tighten the sail and lock off the furling line to make sure it remains tight in the mast... Reposition the boom to around the horizontal so it looks better. Not forgetting to lift it when it comes to the next unfurl. If this makes in-mast sound too problematic to bother with then nothing could be further from the truth. I would not go back to slab reefing. This is exactly how we do it and (touching wood) we have not had any problems over the last five years. It became a bit stiff a couple of years ago which was down to the bearings being worn. Replaced and back to normal. We never winch in or out. As an aside. I always find it easier to furl the main on a port tack with the foresail up. This blanks the main and ensures that it goes into the slot with the 'gap open'...
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