Jeanneau 43DS Shower Sump

[mphem]

We have recently purchased a 2003 43DS and are still learning the boat. This past weekend we took our first showers onboard and found that the aft shower sump fills up very quickly and that the sump pump is controlled by an intermittent switch on the wall of the shower, which must be held in the "on" position for the pump to work. Even when holding the switch, with the water running, it didn't seem that the pump was keeping up with the flow of water. My First Mate, believes that the switch should not be intermitten and that if it was running full time while she is showering that it would have a better chance of staying up with flow of water. Plus she wouldn't have one hand occupied holding the switch in the "on" position. Our dock neighbors with a Hunter 41, confirmed that their sump pump runs during the shower. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this issue? I check the forward head and it also has an intermitten switch, so I believe what we have must be correct.

[Tafika II]

All of the shower pumps are on demand intermittent switches. They are a little slow, but mine keeps up with the water flow. You might want to check your hoses for any blockage. I don't like "always on" as someone will probably leave it on and run down the battery power or burn out the pump motor.
Good luck with your new boat!
Brent

[mphem]

Thanks for the information, I will check the hoses for blockage. It doesn't seem that we should have to turn off the water in order for the sump to empty the shower. Do you have any idea how large the sump is?

[adoyabn]

Hello all,

I live aboard a SO43 in Japan. I suspect the spring loaded switch along with the small sump was an idea on how to conserve water. The capacity of the sump is just large enough to get wet, then you turn off the water, soap up, pump the water out, rinse, pump the water out, and repeat as necessary.  I know it sucks,  but if the system is used as is, shower water consumption is greatly reduced.

With respect to a possible blockage in the drain line. I would look for a filter somewhere close to intake line of the sump pump itself.  My pump and filter is located underneath the sink. If the filter is clogged you'll get the symptoms you describe.  

[Trevor]

A project that I thought may be nice on a previous boat was to install a timer so that the shower sump switch would run the pump for a predetermined duration.

I still think it is not a bad idea so it may go back on the "project list".

[adoyabn]

Interesting idea, I like it! Much simpler than trying to find a location and install a separate sump box with a float switch hooked up to a pump. As an idea for time length, we took an overnight train from Osaka (southern part of the main island) to Sapporo (middle of the northern most island). For showers, we had to pay 310 yen (a little over $3.00) for 6 minutes of water. I had time to spare thanks to my fine Navy training. My wife was able to finish her shower without any problems. Right off of the top of my head, 6 minutes seems to me like a good balance between getting what you need done and not taking a "Hollywood Shower".

[Zanshin]

I had a similar problem with my 43DS shower sump/pump - it was resolved by cleaning the filter and removing all the accumulated junk in it. The filter is underneath the sink and needs to be cleaned regularly.

[rene460]

Hi Mphem,

The shower sump pump on our SO30i also works on a press button switch as you describe.  It is exactly per the circuit diagram, so I  also think it is the standard system.  It is totally simple, very little to go wrong.

It requires technique to wet down, turn off water for soap up and pump out, then rinse and pump out again, usually twice, with a final pump out as the last traces of water drain into the sump/floor of the head compartment.  With practice, it is very effective at saving water, and not strange if you have lived in a dry country.  Long hair can be rinsed over the basin, so no pump out required.

We have 160 litres of water, but showers for 2 soon cause shortage of water for coffee, a major emergency on our boat.  The hot water supply may also limit shower length if you do not have shore power or the engine running.  With two on a 43, you probably have more water available,  but I suggest you check the strainer so the pump works efficiently, get used to the system, save the water for coffee, and save long showers for when shore water is available.

Congratulations on the new boat, you will really enjoy it more and more as you get to know it.

rene460

[mphem]

Thanks for all the advice, we believe we have a wonderful boat.

[adoyabn]

I really liked the idea of a timer instead of the spring operated switch, yes I am lazy. I started doing a little research yesterday, and intially I was thinking an electronic solution. The major drawback is that a relay would be needed to actually control the actual pump switching, another drawback would be the extra power connection for the timer itself. Then I found an Intermatic FF5MH 5-Minute Spring Loaded Wall Timer with Hold. Pretty simple and not difficult to wire up at all. What do you think?

[adoyabn]

Sorry folks, I tried to attach the pdf spec sheet using the add attachment button. It appears that it didn't work. It's an easy Google though.  

www.amazon.com/Intermatic-FF5MH-5-Minute-Spring-Brushed/dp/B003A4QLXI

[sailbleu]

@ Trevor,
if you want things to be automac , you could install a sensitive pressure switch in the drainpipe , that way when waterlevel is detected the pump switches on .
My boat is equipted with a normal on off switch , halfway the shower we turn it on for a couple of minutes and afterwards we repeat it.
I'm a high tech guy myself , meaning I like auto-systems very much , but in this case I think the manual systeems rules.
It's not that you can forget to turn off the pump , it makes a hell of a noise when the sump is empty is it not.

When it takes a long time to pump the water out of the sump that usualy (always) means the filter is clogged.

Regards

[Trevor]

Hello Sailbleu,

Good idea but I would be more inclined to simply have a timer that made the pump run for say, 10 seconds after it was pushed once so your hands were free after the initial button push. As you say, the pump is quite loud when running and I figure it would not be good to run the pump for too long dry.

I fear I would not be able to make the water sensor in the pipe work Sailbleu so a solution for me would have to be much more simplistic than that!

Trevor

[Don Reaves]

If you want a really simple solution, try hanging a weight on the switch to keep the pump on. Of course, this only works if you have to push the switch down to turn the pump on. That's how mine works.

Don

[Tafika II]

Great idea on the Intermatic switch, but it for 125-277 V applications not 12-24VDC

[sailbleu]

Oh well in that case , this is what you need trevor , this is the first example that came to pass. I'm sure you can find these things everywhere.
www.aliexpress.com/item/DC-12V-5A-H3Y-4-H3Y-Delay-Timer-Time-Relay-0-60-Second-60s-60sec-12VDC/541889356.html
Personally I would stick to a normal switch , these pumps can run dry for some time you know.

Regards

[Trevor]

Ahhhhaa!!

Sailbleu this only goes to show great minds think alike!!! This afternoon prior to reading this forum I have purchased this one off Ebay.

www.ebay.com.au/itm/110820998414?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2648

I think it is exactly as you have suggested.

I note the maximum allowable current through the relay contacts as 5 amp. I checked the manual and it has a 6amp breaker feeding the pump so I figure it should be ok. I can fit it under the sink in the aft heads and let's see how it works. It will take a while to arrive (free postage- always takes a long time) but when it does I will report back on progress.

Regards and happy sailing.

Trevor

[sailbleu]

Nice you found your solution. I wouldn't worry about the 5 amps , by the time the contacts start heating up the pump has done her duty.
I can imagin it will be very easy to install this relay , since all the wiring will be there.
All said and done , it is a contribution to the comfort in the shower , especially when you have to hold the switch in order to empty the sump.
But I will stick to my manual solution , I dont see that amount of benefit for this situation.
However , your intention of using this relay has brought me to another idea.
This is a whole new topic , but let me briefly explain.
Maybe it will give you (and others ?) some more ideas.

Last year I have changed my rear shower somewhat , I had enough of reorganising the showerhead , you know , pulling the hose out and fixing the showerhead to the wall and vice versa.
I decided to install a fixed shower next to the sinkfaucet that is.
Bear in mind the (also new installed ) sinkfaucet has its own valve , the old one didn't.
What I needed to do is add a parallel fixed showerhead circuit with separate on/off valve.
While at it , I installed a thermostatic valve , no more fiddling and searching for the right watertemp.
Remember ,using warm water makes the boilertemp. gradually go down needing a different cold/hot water ratio.
Taking in mind the loss of water while looking for the ideal showertemp.this looked like a good idea , and it was. My showerwater has the right temp all the time and I dont lose water along the way.
But ,........ and this is the cherry on my shower cake , when you start showering , or after you stoped to soap in , the warm water supply coming from the boiler cools down , resulting in a bit of a supprise when turning the shower back on.
So most of us open the valve and stand aside waiting for an acceptable temp. , again with loss of the valuable water supply.
Here's where a electromagnetic valve comes in handy.
Before showering I (we) press a button and the showerwater is diverted to the tank again.
That takes about max. 1 minute and the showerwater is at the right (preset by the thermostaic valve) temp.
After soaping in , the same procedure rules.
To make a long story short , a relay like yours could avoid having to press the return button during the reflux period.
So that will be on my ' next winter list '.
Thank for bringing on the idea Trevor.

Regards

[adoyabn]

Jun 21, 2013 14:57:38 GMT Tafika II said:

Great idea on the Intermatic switch, but it for 125-277 V applications not 12-24VDC

 Yes you are correct, however, it's a spring loaded timer that mechanically opens and closes the switch. The switch doesn't care if it's AC or DC. You only need wire up one set of contacts.

More of a concern would be the current handling capability of the switch itself. The timer switch is rated for 20 Amps @ 125VAC.  The pump is rated 5 Amps @ 12VDC.

The formula for power with units expressed in Watts is the same for both AC and DC. 

A 20 amp load @ 125 VAC comes to 2,500 Watts Max

A 5 amp load @ 12 VDC comes to 60 Watts Max

I agree that the electronic solution is more elegant. IMHO the mechanical solution is much simpler. Same switch with a spring loaded timer added to it.

[Trevor]

Sailbleu,

That is a great idea. I really like the idea of bypassing the shower outlet and returning the water to the holding tank as the hot water is travelling through the pipes to get to the shower outlet.

A bit ambitious for me at this stage but certainly worth considering if we were to spend more time on board.

Regards,

Trevor

[Donrob]

Congratulations on your acquisition. We too acquired a 43 DS in 2007 and we are very happy with it. We too had experienced your problem when we first got the boat and resolved it by simply replacing the switch with one that stays permanently on until you switch it off again. It is difficult to forget it on because the pump makes quite a noise when it is on. Regarding flow, as other forum members pointed out you need to check the filter on a regular basis because it gets clogged with hair which hinders the flow. Its quite easy to unscrew and replace this filter by hand.

[ubuysa]

Jun 18, 2013 15:38:52 GMT mphem said:

We have recently purchased a 2003 43DS and are still learning the boat. This past weekend we took our first showers onboard and found that the aft shower sump fills up very quickly and that the sump pump is controlled by an intermittent switch on the wall of the shower, which must be held in the "on" position for the pump to work. Even when holding the switch, with the water running, it didn't seem that the pump was keeping up with the flow of water. My First Mate, believes that the switch should not be intermitten and that if it was running full time while she is showering that it would have a better chance of staying up with flow of water. Plus she wouldn't have one hand occupied holding the switch in the "on" position. Our dock neighbors with a Hunter 41, confirmed that their sump pump runs during the shower. Does anyone have any thoughts regarding this issue? I check the forward head and it also has an intermitten switch, so I believe what we have must be correct.

Have you checked and cleaned the inline filter? When we have ladies of the female persuasion on board we generally get a fair bit of hair trapped in the inline filter. That reduces the pump efficiency by a lot!

I also agree with adoyabn that using less water helps too. Think of it as a "rinse and go" rather than as a proper shower. Your fresh water lasts longer that way too.

[Trevor]

I finally got around to installing the timer as discussed earlier in this thread.

The timer I originally purchased for this was not suitable so I purchase another with a different configuration like this.

  
Attachment Deleted Attachment Deleted

The timer is found if you search on "12 volt 10Amp Adjustable TIMER relay ALT/ADJTIMERRELA" on Ebay and was delivered from the UK.

The sump pump looks like this and is found under the aft head sink.




The connections to the timer only have to be made at these existing connections.



The installed product is shown in this photograph



The timer has a switch to roughly set the duration and nature of operation and a control to finely set the timer duration. We considered what is the most logical time required and thought that the time it takes to empty the floor of the shower from the time the waste water just covers the floor grate. That was timed to be 25 seconds. We have consequently set the timer to 25 seconds.

So now when having a shower, when the water covers the floor grate you can press the shower sump switch and it will keep the sump pump working until the floor waste is empty.

More details available if anyone is interested in doing this themselves and any of it is not clear.

Trevor Bird

[ianqv]

Fab mod!! I will be doing this during the winter lay up!!

[Tafika II]

Trevor, did you change the factory switch at the shower also?