Leaking holding tank 43ds.

[saltymetals]

Hi guys, i am sure i came across a thread on subject of a leaking SS holding tank but cannot find it. Hv any of you had this prblm and what did you find as best solution? 1) buy replacement frm Jeanneau ( if they still make it), 2) have a new SS tank made 3) get a plastic replacement which would not corrode?
On my 43ds (2004) the face of the tank showing after i remove the covering board is angled back for some reason. If i get a new SS one made it would make sense to make a new tank a bit larger in order to fully utilise the space but i am worried a larger one might not fit through the existing opening.
Any ideas, comments, suggestions gratefully rcd.
Andrew
"Genial Bee"

[Charlie-Bravo]

I have no knowlage of the 43DS and it's tanks or the squeeze to get it in, but hear of many SS tanks failing, plastic tanks make for a good substitute, but awkward to have a bespoke shape made.

Welding stainless was my game for many years, and the key to a long lasting tank is to have the fabricator purge the inside of the construction with pure argon whilst they weld, this, if done correctly will produce an inner surface of the weld ... the penetration.. as smooth and as lovely as the outside. Failing to purge properly produces a 'coked' rough internal surface to the weld which promotes corrosion which is the route of just about all the leaky SS tanks afloat, the rest fail from poor mounting and vibration induced cracking.

When contracting a fabricator do enquire about how they will weld the tank, if they don't purge,  or won't accept at least a thorough visual internal inspection of the tank looking for lovely penetration  , find another that will  or head down the plastic route ... tech tanks perhaps, they do quite a few designs, and may be the better option.

Good luck
CB

[mesteve]

Both of our tanks were leaking at survey.  We have fiberglass replacements made to the same dimensions.  One word of caution that we learned the difficult way (but got lucky) it to make sure the fittings are aligned perfectly on the replacement from the original.  There is almost no wiggle room for error for the deck pump out and we actually had to remove the aft pump out fitting to make enough clearance and reinstall.

[alenka]

Our aft SS holding tank has needed repairing twice.  Any imperfection in the welds can allow corrosion to develop.  Pee is not SS friendly!

As it was costing more to remove, re-weld and refit than renew we opted for an off-the-shelf poly tank this year.    

[mesteve]

Aug 27, 2021 10:38:59 GMT alenka said:

Our aft SS holding tank has needed repairing twice.  Any imperfection in the welds can allow corrosion to develop.  Pee is not SS friendly!

As it was costing more to remove, re-weld and refit than renew we opted for an off-the-shelf poly tank this year.    

Do you have a model number to share that fits?

[alenka]

I have yet to see the installation. Covid has kept me from visiting but fingers crossed I step aboard on Wed.  I will post details.

When we bought the boat it didn't have a holding tank in the front heads. As we rarely have guests onboard we didn't bother until the time we had major problems with the aft head. You suddenly realise how inconvenient it is to be restricted.

We put in a smallish off-the-shelf poly tank as an emergency and no problems seven years later.

[andreshs1]

Hi there

good luck on Wed!

also looking forward to seeing the photos of the holding tanks (I need to fit both as my boat came without...)

cheers

[theswede]

I think this a general jeanneau issue as I've had it and seen it on all older prestige and merry fisher models. Their holding tank supplier are using a not so pure ss steal so eventually there are small holes everywhere. I would not repair them but get a new in plastic or with control top grade ss steal.

The tell is brown/rusty stains under the tank, when its been leaking a bit much you will have larger areas discolored. 

[saltymetals]

Aug 25, 2021 1:09:50 GMT mesteve said:

Both of our tanks were leaking at survey.  We have fiberglass replacements made to the same dimensions.  One word of caution that we learned the difficult way (but got lucky) it to make sure the fittings are aligned perfectly on the replacement from the original.  There is almost no wiggle room for error for the deck pump out and we actually had to remove the aft pump out fitting to make enough clearance and reinstall.

So I see Alenka is likely to be facing the same thing. Mesteve, how did you extract the aft pump-out fitting on the deck? I have managed to disconnect all the other pipes but the one on the top of the tank that goes up the the pump-out fitting looks as though it also has to come off and the only way i can see to do it is remove the pump-out fitting but how on earth does it come off? I have removed the 3 screws but then what?  Am concerned that if i exert too much force to get it off i will break it.

Mesteve, I don't know what time zone you are in so if it takes you more than a day to reply i might have got it off (or broken it ) by then...... 

I have found a company in UK (TekTanks) who will make up a new one in plastic but while they show a tank for the 43 it does not look like mine since it has a step on it and they strongly recommend I send photos and measurements before they make one. It is such a tight fit that i am not going to mess around trying to have a larger one, i find the existing 80 litre capacity is OK.

Andrew

[mesteve]

A little heat, a blade under the lip on deck, and a blade up along the fitting from underneath to break out the 4000, than twisting…

There is that rib that runs behind the tank, so maybe they were able to incorporate sim of the space above that and have the tank sit on it.

[saltymetals]

Great Mesteve. Tks for the tip. 

Upon closer investigation i think part of my problem is that the diameter of the hole in the deck is just enough for the deck fitting to extend sufficiently underneath for the pipe to be clamped around it. Problem is that i cannot get the deck fitting out bec the hole in the deck will not allow sufficient space for the clamped pipe to come up through as well. I had hoped that simply removing the bottom end of this pipe from the holding tank would be sufficient to be able to drop the tank down from the pipe and pull it out  but there is so little wriggle room this is not poss. So i have to remove the top end of the clamped pipe, get the deck fitting and the short length of pipe out of the way and hopefully the tank will come out. I will revert with an update if/when i am successful.
 Yes, my tank actually sits on the stringer and does not extend further down (as i believe the design by TekTanks shows on their website for the 43ds).  I would like a little more volume but decided not to play around with the dimensions since the space is so tight and any replacement really needs to be an exact copy of the old SS (leaking) tank that i have.
I can live with the existing 80 litre capacity since i have a good Gobius meter/lights telling me how full the tank is.   
Have a good w/e
Andrew

[mesteve]

Yep, sorry. The hose has to come off first…

[boltnbrew]

Can anyone identify suppliers of plastic tanks- fore and aft?
Thanks in advance.

[saltymetals]

OK, an update on my tank removal.

I could not remove the short hose from the lower end of the deck pump-out fitting so after much persuasion i managed to lift the fitting (with the hose still attached) sufficiently to release the old tank from the top hose. (Tks to Mesteve for the tip about twisting the hoses to break the seal).  I found i also had to remove the breather/overflow from the hull fitting so i could move the hose out of the way to allow extraction of the tank.

I photographed each side of the tank once it was out , printed the photos and then wrote the dimensions on the printouts. I sent these to TekTanks , UK (see their website at www.tek-tanks.com ). I had a quote from them (GBP459+VAT+ delivery, this is the price quoted to me BEFORE the 10% CA discount) but it was not clear if they were intending to use MDPE or HDPE. I had no idea which it should be so posted a question on Cruisers Forum (www.cruisersforum.com) and had some quick replies. Even had a reply from the "Headmistress", Peg Hall, recommending i try Tek Tanks.

Conclusion? MOST DEFINITELY it should be HDPE and not MDPE which has an unsatisfactory molecular structure making it weaker and subject to splitting or creep.  Tek Tanks quoted me for delivery in HDPE  in about 6-8 weeks which is fine for me.

The good news for us with a 43ds is that they have already made an HDPE holding tank for the 43ds so have all the measurements and data already in their electronic machining equipment. I do not know if this is only for the rear tank or includes the forward tank as well but send Sohie at Tek Tanks an email to clarify.  ( [e-mail] ). She did strongly recommend to me that i measured my tank first since there are some variations but on cross-checking the info i sent her she confirmed they had an exact copy already in their system.

I have an idea. If there are several of us who need the same tank we might get a volume discount from them but note also that if you are a member of the Cruising Association (CA) there is a 10% discount.
Andrew

[andreshs1]

Excellent details Andrew

Can you send the pics and measurements ?

Shipping from UK will not be negligible to HK

Cheers

[saltymetals]

OK, guys. Both I and Andres are getting ready to order the aft holding tank from Tek Tanks and i hope we will get a discount instead of just one tank. I am awaiting news from Andres in HK if his 2002 43ds has exactly the same tank dimensions as my 2004 model with 80 litre capacity. If there are others of you who need an aft tank then please  let us know soonest so we can put a bulk order together with Tek Tanks.

In addition to an aft holding tank i think Andres also needs a tank for his forward head but that is another matter.
Andrew
"Genial Bee"
2004 43ds based in Italy for the time being.

[mesteve]

Messaged

[jj2]

Hi Guys,

we’ve only had our 43DS 2002 for a month and yesterday I discovered the source of a bad smell that wouldn’t go away…. There was a stream of brown water trapped between the plastic holding tank, under the V berth, and a port side stringer. No drain hole there so it never made it to the bilge. I can’t see if the leak is coming from the bottom of the tank where it might’ve failed or from the connecting hoses on the port side. Need to investigate further. I’m thinking that if the tank needs to be replaced I’d have one made locally out of fiberglass. We’re keeping the boat in Puerto Rico at the moment. Good point on making sure the connecting fittings match exactly the old tank to use the existing hoses. On our boat it seems you can disconnect the 3 hoses easily enough at the holding tank and don’t have to mess with them on the other end. 

while looking around under the v berth I noticed that the forward most space, just aft of the anchor locker, doesn’t have a drain hole going back to the bilge. The hull has a pretty stout fiberglass member running port to starboard without a drainage hole. Any water that finds its way there gets trapped. Is that the way all of the 43DS are built? Seems to me a flaw in construction…. 

Are any of you close by to Puerto Rico? 

[alenka]

Hi JJ2,

Firstly, it always helps in you can post pictures when asking these sorts of questions.  Very few boats are fitted out the same, especially things like holding tanks that generally tend to be retro-fitted locally rather than at the factory.

I know of one 43DS that suffered with water being drawn in via the anchor locker drain when sailed with some heel.  Could it be a similar situation for you and the water is smelling bad because it is trapped?  Something to check before spending cash on a new tank.

On my own 43DS there is an underfloor compartment next to the forward heads that doesn't have a limber hole (drain) and that can fill up with water if the pipe to the back of the tap starts to drip.  It runs down the pipe onto the hull and into said area - which holds about 5 litres of water.

When I first bough the boat I lifted every piece of cabin sole and lose woodwork to vac out any dirt. I was surprised how much sawdust was hidden away, left over from the original fit.  This kind of stuff just holds smells and damp. It's good to get rid and clean up the areas with bilgeX.

I am guessing that limber holes are drilled by the fitters and not moulded in at the production stage; And occasionally they get overlooked.  Don't forget if you add your own to thoroughly epoxy the raw edges.

I have just replaced my holding tank in the aft heads.  There were nasty brown streaks down the side of the hull (inside). Not foul water but rusting welds on the stainless steel.  I shall post picture later today.

[jj2]

Hi Alenka,

Thanks for your input. I’ll take some photos when I’m back onboard to post and will keep investigating the problem…

Funny you mention it, that’s precisely where I’m at, vacuuming and cleaning each compartment and bilge area. Sawdust and dirt, but still taking her out once a week…Just getting to know the boat… A lot of fun

Cheers

[rxc]

The most fwd bilge compartment in my 43DS does not have a limber hole. This has been a problem when the bow pulpit leaked, in heavy weather during the Atlantic crossing, and then up in Scotland. I had a bunce of lines stored there which got wet and stayed wet, and it also caused quite a bit of corrosion to the bow thruster electrical connections. I

I ended up installing access ports in the chain locker, in order to be able to get at the nuts that hold the bow pulpit in place.

I have a third fresh water tank up fwd, under the berth, not a holding tank. Are you sure it is a holding tank? The fwd tank should be in the head, outboard of the toilet.

[jj2]

Hi RXC,

Thanks for the replies. We have a holding tank under the V Berth and forward of it there's a fresh water tank which could also be leaking. I'm still investigating.... But no limber holes under the V berth....

We've had her now for about 2.5 months and get to know her better. We really like the boat!

One question for all you guys that have had the 43DS for a long time, has to do with the vented loops in both heads. On my boat the intake into the toilet doesn't have a vented loop and the discharge, well,  they go to the holding tanks which of course have their own vents. Shouldn't the intake have a vented loop? Is Jeanneau relying on a check valve at the toilet itself? On our boat we have two electric pumps with macerators...

Do your boats have vented loops? Have any of you you had issues with water coming back in when heeling significantly? 

I'm scratching my head thinking if I have to address a new vented loop installation or leave it alone.... The boat is 19 years old so obviously there's been time to test her but with only 1300 hours on the engine she really wasn't used that much....

Thoughts?

All the best,
JJ

[mesteve]

The overboard discharge running thru the vented holding tank is a vented loop effectively. I would be more worried about the small vent you install failing before the 3/4” vent line plugging up…

Also, your boat wasn’t MOTORED much; not a direct correlation to total use. We, like many, will sail at 2 knots to our destination vs motoring, which saves us a ton on fuel and maintenance.

[jj2]

Thanks for your input Mesteve. 

So, your boat doesn't have a vented loop in the intake line to the toilet?

I agree that the holding tank and it's vent would act as a vented loop... Would like to hear if someone thinks otherwise though...

Best regards

[rene460]

Hi jj,

I don’t think any of our boats have a vented loop in the inlet water.  The normal flow direction is in, so a check valve will not help.  On the suction stroke of the pump, it would just draw in air from the vent, and never pump water.

When the little lever on the pump head is in the pump out position, one of the water valves is locked, preventing water flow, so achieves the required result.  In this position, the top of the pump piston only pushes air back and forth.  

We have certainly never had any issue with unwanted water coming in, though we are not extreme sailors, and we do leave the lever in the pump out position.  I have a vague memory that the Jabsco manual recommends closing the through hull valve when it is not being used, but this seems more like a legal cya clause than a practical procedure.  Mind you it could be a worthwhile step in preparing for a storm at sea.

As has already been mentioned, when pump out is through the holding tank, the tank vent is the high point vent, so long as you are not heeled so the top of the vent pipe is below the water.

Glad you are enjoying your boat.  There is so much to learn as well as great times to enjoy.  And that toilet pump is a diabolically clever device.

rene460