39i Battery System Upgrade

[zaphod]

When we got our boat a little over 2 years ago she came equipped with a house bank that consisted of 5 group31 "maintenance free" flooded lead acid batteries. I figured we would be good for a few years before we needed to replace them, but I wanted to get an idea what our energy consumption was when off grid. I was really surprised that the factory did not see fit to even give us a basic ammeter so we could see what we were drawing. Apparently the Scheiber panel has the capability, it just needs an optional shunt. Fail Jeanneau!

Rather than spend money on the Scheiber shunt I decided to buy a decent battery monitor so I installed a Victron BMV712. I like that model because you can connect via Bluetooth and see all the data well laid out with trend logs etc. I then proceeded to monitor the battery system throughout all conditions. I found that we were not getting anywhere near the amp-hours that would be expected from a 550ah bank. Theoretically we should have been able to get over 250ah before hitting the 50% discharge floor. We were getting around 175ah before voltage alarms started going off. I also noticed some strange current flow that made me take a closer look at the bank wiring. What I discovered is that whoever added the 2 extra batteries to the factory 3 battery bank got a bit creative with the cabling. As wired there were multiple negatives coming off different batteries in the bank, and the charging was not balanced across all batteries. I corrected the wiring, but the damage was done. I was about to buy a new headsail, but decided to move on new batteries instead.

I decided to go with Firefly carbon foam AGMs. I like the fact that they don't suffer from the same sulfation problems that regular AGMs do. They will tolerate being at partial state of charge without suffering permanent loss of capacity, and can be drawn down below 30% rather than the 50% of regular AGMs. Not as good as Lithium, but better than conventional AGM.

I didn't like the spaghetti cables of the original installation, so a friend built me some custom cables out of some high end cable he had on hand. Unfortunately the cable was orange, but hey, not bad for the price of a bottle of wine!

But that was just the beginning....

[dbostrom]

That's a handsome installation, particularly the battery cabling.

I was sorely tempted to try some of these batteries at least for curiosity's sake and will be intrigued to hear how they do in service.

For anybody tempted to enable the ammeter on their Scheiber panel, the little 100A Blue Sea Systems model 9230 shunt does the job nicely. It's kind of handy to have this feature for at-a-glance, although certainly not a substitute for Zaphod's route. 

Tangentially, those Victron MPPT solar controllers are a hell of a good deal. A lot of bank for the buck. Victron is pleasingly generous to customers. 

[zaphod]

The reason I chose to go the Firefly route was because I knew that Lithium batteries, aside from being much more expensive, would also require upgrading my charger and alternator. While both of those upgrades were going to happen in the future, I just didn't have the budget to do it all at once.

What I didn't realize was that the factory installed Cristec charger was woefully inadequate. The Firefly batteries have slightly different charging profiles than regular AGMs, and the Cristec just has a battery type dipswitch, and no ability to customize. I also learned that the charger automatically switches into float mode after 4 hours regardless of whether the bank was fully charged. That may be OK on a small bank, but with a max output of 40a it would never be able to fully charge a larger capacity bank in that time. (I suspect that may have contributed to the demise of the previous bank). I also learned that, although the Fireflys would not be permanently damaged from being deeply discharged or at partial charge for long periods, they DID require the occasional "restoration charge". The manufacturer recommends bringing them from a discharged state at a rate of at least .2C or more, which means a charging current of at least 20% of the capacity of the bank. On my bank that equates to around 100a. Clearly the sad little Cristec was not up to the task.

So, I started researching battery chargers. I quickly realized that chargers of that size are very expensive. I also realized that it was actually cheaper to buy a charger/inverter combo unit than to buy a dedicated charger. I ended up settling on a Xantrex Freedom XC Pro 100/2000 inverter charger. The charger profiles are fully customizable and the inverter is an added bonus that I am not sure we will use much, but you never know! It might be nice to have 120v available to us when off grid. (We already have a small inverter powering a TV the p.o. had installed.)

Installation of the new inverter charger was pretty straight forward. The unit fits in the same compartment as the old charger, although it is a bit tight. We may run into thermal issues under heavy load, but that remains to be seen. I don't anticipate running big inverter loads.

I ran some 10/3 marine grade cable from the charger breaker on the shore power panel to the charger. I will be upgrading the breaker to 25a, but the breakers in my panel are not standard so Bluesea breakers don't fit. I am waiting for a new one from Jeanneau. In the meantime the 15a breaker will be fine as long as I am not running heavy charging. (The unit draws 17a at full output.) I repurposed the old 12/3 charger power cable to bring the inverter output back to the 120v panel. I then isolated the breaker serving all the outlets in the boat and connected the inverter output to that breaker. The inverter has a pass-through function when in grid mode, so when on shore power it will pass line voltage from the input back to the outlets. The inverter can also be configured to clean up and supplement the shore power so if the voltage is low it will correct it, and if you have limited amps available it can take power from the batteries.

On the DC side I was able to re-use the battery cables from the old battery bank. I installed a 250a fuse block, and will be adding a battery switch in an unused spot on the thruster/auxiliary panel beside the main panel. Something else I am waiting for from Jeanneau.

Just a comment about the electrical system on the boat...I like that most of the wiring is well labeled, and the wiring diagrams are nice, but I am not impressed that not a single piece of factory wiring is proper tinned marine grade cable. The panels have very little room for adding loads.

[dbostrom]

Very nice!

If it's any comfort about the Jeanneau wiring, Practical Sailor did some testing with tinned vs. plain copper wire on various characteristics, concluded that tinned wire is over-egged and arguably over-applied. Tinned wire is slightly less conductive than plain copper due to loss of cross-section to less conductive tin, and slightly more prone to fracturing in fatigue conditions. Their conclusion was that tin was superior for places where terminations becoming submerged is probable, not necessary for all requirements. The latter conclusion is perhaps more of a judgement, the conductivity and fracture matters plain facts. 

As with many matters of this kind, a blanket prescription "use tin" may still be best because it removes the risk of faulty judgement on the part of individuals. 

Yeah, the panels on the Jeanneau are really scanty. I have a theory that somehow the river racing motor boat heritage/beginnings of Jeanneau have left us with small motorboat wiring even as the rest of affair grew. 

I replaced the panel on our boat before her first sail as part of our family. I've been up to my ears in DC affairs as part of my career for decades. Having witnessed other situations where "organic growth" lead to chaos,I just didn't like thinking about what was already behind that panel after the boat had been properly populated with gear, nor how the problem was only going to grow worse. Plus, soldered-on switches in a hard to find format? No thanks, don't want to deal with that in a hurry. Totally boring and standard breaker-switches available anywhere in a hurry are a comfort. 

[zaphod]

Jan 25, 2021 3:41:27 GMT dbostrom said:

Very nice!

If it's any comfort about the Jeanneau wiring, Practical Sailor did some testing with tinned vs. plain copper wire on various characteristics, concluded that tinned wire is over-egged and arguably over-applied. Tinned wire is slightly less conductive than plain copper due to loss of cross-section to less conductive tin, and slightly more prone to fracturing in fatigue conditions. Their conclusion was that tin was superior for places where terminations becoming submerged is probable, not necessary for all requirements. The latter conclusion is perhaps more of a judgement, the conductivity and fracture matters plain facts. 

As with many matters of this kind, a blanket prescription "use tin" may still be best because it removes the risk of faulty judgement on the part of individuals. 

Yeah, the panels on the Jeanneau are really scanty. I have a theory that somehow the river racing motor boat heritage/beginnings of Jeanneau have left us with small motorboat wiring even as the rest of affair grew. 

I replaced the panel on our boat before her first sail as part of our family. I've been up to my ears in DC affairs as part of my career for decades. Having witnessed other situations where "organic growth" lead to chaos,I just didn't like thinking about what was already behind that panel after the boat had been properly populated with gear, nor how the problem was only going to grow worse. Plus, soldered-on switches in a hard to find format? No thanks, don't want to deal with that in a hurry. Totally boring and standard breaker-switches available anywhere in a hurry are a comfort. 

That is interesting about the wiring. I must find that article. I don't see it as a huge issue as long as the boat stay dry inside, and I fully intend to keep it dry! It just seems like they are cutting corners using basic cabtire cable for the ac circuits.

Replacing the breaker panel is not a project I want to take on until I have to. I'm not a fan of the factory scheiber panel, but I can live with it.

[zaphod]

As some of you may have noticed in my battery compartment there is also a Victron solar charge controller, which is the next step in my upgrade plans. Last summer I bought the charge controller and a Renogy 160w ultra flexible solar panel. I roughed in the wiring and temporarily mounted the panel on my dodger so I could experiment with it.

The charge controller, like the battery monitor, has Bluetooth connectivity which allows me to monitor charging output, and log power production. I sized the controller so that it could accommodate more panels.

The Renogy panel seems pretty decent for the money. It is not as efficient as newer tech panels, and does not have bypass diodes, meaning if one part of the panel is shaded the whole panel output drops right off. At the same time it was about half the price of an equivalent flexible Sunpower based panel. At one point on our summer holidays I was docked near a 36i that happened to have 2x100w sunpower panels, and we compared notes....I was getting 50% more amperage out of my panel than he was. I don't know if it was the panel, the charge controller, or the acceptance rate of my batteries, but I was encouraged by that.

I found that on good days the panel would produce enough power to replenish the power used over night by about 2pm. The big problem was keeping the shade of the boom off the panel, particularly at anchor when the boat was kiting around a bit.

Over the winter I bought a second 160w panel, and I am planning to mount them on the bimini and wire them in parallel.

[Charlie-Bravo]

Hi Zaphod, nice work, and a good looking set of batteries, recently installed some new gel batteries myself , went gel as I spent out on a new main sail ..... will it ever end!
Just a thought, with your extra panel for wintertime, you might find wiring them in series performs better, I did this on my last boat and it gave better results in the winter months, and no great loss in the summer, the mppt victron will of course shut off charging once the panel supply reaches a low voltage, so by doubling the voltage you get the most from the available light at each end of the day

CB

[zaphod]

Jan 25, 2021 19:48:37 GMT Charlie-Bravo said:

Hi Zaphod, nice work, and a good looking set of batteries, recently installed some new gel batteries myself , went gel as I spent out on a new main sail ..... will it ever end!
Just a thought, with your extra panel for wintertime, you might find wiring them in series performs better, I did this on my last boat and it gave better results in the winter months, and no great loss in the summer, the mppt victron will of course shut off charging once the panel supply reaches a low voltage, so by doubling the voltage you get the most from the available light at each end of the day

CB

Interesting thought, and might be something to experient with although I will likely remove the panels and put them away for the winter as I don't expect to get much useable power from them. We do use the boat in the winter but only for 1 or 2 nights at a time, and our usual winter getaways have shore power available. We have enough battery power to be off grid for 2 or 3 days in winter without charging. (The webasto forced air heat draws quite a bit of power.)

[Charlie-Bravo]

Your set up sounds like it does what you need it to do, which is the main thing,  I keep the solar in place all year, I get enough power to keep my old school batteries topped up even with diminishing sunlight at 52.53N , perhaps you are further up, mind you, once covered in 2" of snow like today, the performance isn't great.

Another small bonus of series connection is reduced losses % wise over the cable runs from panels to controller, maybe not an issue, but food for thought.
CB

[zaphod]

Jan 25, 2021 21:36:48 GMT Charlie-Bravo said:

Your set up sounds like it does what you need it to do, which is the main thing,  I keep the solar in place all year, I get enough power to keep my old school batteries topped up even with diminishing sunlight at 52.53N , perhaps you are further up, mind you, once covered in 2" of snow like today, the performance isn't great.

Another small bonus of series connection is reduced losses % wise over the cable runs from panels to controller, maybe not an issue, but food for thought.
CB

Yes, definitely something to keep in mind. I will be using heavy gauge wire to minimize voltage drop, but it may still be noticeable. I will probably experiment with both configurations. The downside of series wiring is that if one panel gets shaded both panels will shut down, but with the panels on the bimini shading may be less of an issue.

[rxc]

I am starting to consider that it is time to replace the batteries on my boat. Currently I have 4 lead-acid golf cart batteries in one house bank, one Group 31 lead battery to start the engine, one Group 31 lead battery for the bow thruster, and one Group 24 lead battery to start the genset. The alternator is a Balmar with an ARS5 charger, the shorepower charger is a programmable 40 amp unit that replaced the Cristec, and I have a solar MPPT controller for the solar panels (2x130watts) and the windmill (Air Breeze). The inverter is a Prosine 2000.

I thought at first that LiFePO4 might be a good drop-in replacement, even though expensive, but then read about how the charging of these batteries replies a very careful regime to stop charging them when they are full. Neither my alternator controller, nor the shorepower charger nor the MPPT controller knows to STOP charging the batteries when they are full. And since I have a fair amount of "stuff" running when I am on the boat, I have some sort of charging source providing energy to the battery banks at all times. With the lead batteries, they just float the voltage when the batteries are close to full, but I have read that this is very difficult to do with LiFePO4 batteries.

So, I don't understand how the boat would operate with these new-chemistry batteries. And with these Carbon foam batteries, do they have the same issues? Do we need to replace all of our charging controllers with smart, interconnected ones, and/or shut them all off when we think that the batteries are close to full, and not turn them on till the batteries are substantially discharged?

Looking for experience with this matter.

[zaphod]

Jan 30, 2021 17:12:48 GMT rxc said:

I am starting to consider that it is time to replace the batteries on my boat. Currently I have 4 lead-acid golf cart batteries in one house bank, one Group 31 lead battery to start the engine, one Group 31 lead battery for the bow thruster, and one Group 24 lead battery to start the genset. The alternator is a Balmar with an ARS5 charger, the shorepower charger is a programmable 40 amp unit that replaced the Cristec, and I have a solar MPPT controller for the solar panels (2x130watts) and the windmill (Air Breeze). The inverter is a Prosine 2000.

I thought at first that LiFePO4 might be a good drop-in replacement, even though expensive, but then read about how the charging of these batteries replies a very careful regime to stop charging them when they are full. Neither my alternator controller, nor the shorepower charger nor the MPPT controller knows to STOP charging the batteries when they are full. And since I have a fair amount of "stuff" running when I am on the boat, I have some sort of charging source providing energy to the battery banks at all times. With the lead batteries, they just float the voltage when the batteries are close to full, but I have read that this is very difficult to do with LiFePO4 batteries.

So, I don't understand how the boat would operate with these new-chemistry batteries. And with these Carbon foam batteries, do they have the same issues? Do we need to replace all of our charging controllers with smart, interconnected ones, and/or shut them all off when we think that the batteries are close to full, and not turn them on till the batteries are substantially discharged?

Looking for experience with this matter.

The Firefly batteries are essentially still AGM batteries, they still use lead acid chemistry and they can, for the most part, be treated like any other AGM aside from a slightly different charge profile. The manufacturer says they don't need a float charge, but if you do float the voltage should be lower than other AGMs at around 13.4v.

The big advantage of the Fireflys is the ability to draw them down well below 50%, and can be kept at partial charge for long periods without doing permanent damage to them. If you treat a regular agm or FLA battery that way you will lose capacity permanently.

You have a lot of charging sources on your boat, so that benefit may not be as important to you, and it may not be worth the extra cost over conventional AGM.

[rxc]

Jan 30, 2021 17:51:40 GMT zaphod said:

Jan 30, 2021 17:12:48 GMT rxc said:

The big advantage of the Fireflys is the ability to draw them down well below 50%, and can be kept at partial charge for long periods without doing permanent damage to them. If you treat a regular agm or FLA battery that way you will lose capacity permanently.

You have a lot of charging sources on your boat, so that benefit may not be as important to you, and it may not be worth the extra cost over conventional AGM.

Thanks for that insight. I will see what I can find about these carbon batteries. I am willing to spend more money for them if it makes ALL the batteries last longer, but if I have to change all the equipment and then adapt to a different charge/discharge regime that requires more than daily monitoring, then I will likely stay with lead. It has worked well for the past 13 years, and I am used to it. I would probably have to change out or adjust the charger on the genset, as well, if I do something different. I would like to keep only one battery chemistry on board.

[zaphod]

Jan 30, 2021 19:35:57 GMT rxc said:

Jan 30, 2021 17:51:40 GMT zaphod said:

Thanks for that insight. I will see what I can find about these carbon batteries. I am willing to spend more money for them if it makes ALL the batteries last longer, but if I have to change all the equipment and then adapt to a different charge/discharge regime that requires more than daily monitoring, then I will likely stay with lead. It has worked well for the past 13 years, and I am used to it. I would probably have to change out or adjust the charger on the genset, as well, if I do something different. I would like to keep only one battery chemistry on board.

Yes you would probably be best changing all of your batteries to the same type since your charger is only capable of using one charge profile at a time. I changed my engine battery to AGM but it is not a firefly.

FLA is definitely the cheapest cost per AH, but the trade off is higher maintenance, potential off gassing, and acid leakage. AGMs don't need sealed battery boxes and don't have to be installed vertically.

[dbostrom]

Jan 30, 2021 17:12:48 GMT rxc said:

I am starting to consider that it is time to replace the batteries on my boat. Currently I have 4 lead-acid golf cart batteries in one house bank, one Group 31 lead battery to start the engine, one Group 31 lead battery for the bow thruster, and one Group 24 lead battery to start the genset. The alternator is a Balmar with an ARS5 charger, the shorepower charger is a programmable 40 amp unit that replaced the Cristec, and I have a solar MPPT controller for the solar panels (2x130watts) and the windmill (Air Breeze). The inverter is a Prosine 2000.

I thought at first that LiFePO4 might be a good drop-in replacement, even though expensive, but then read about how the charging of these batteries replies a very careful regime to stop charging them when they are full. Neither my alternator controller, nor the shorepower charger nor the MPPT controller knows to STOP charging the batteries when they are full. And since I have a fair amount of "stuff" running when I am on the boat, I have some sort of charging source providing energy to the battery banks at all times. With the lead batteries, they just float the voltage when the batteries are close to full, but I have read that this is very difficult to do with LiFePO4 batteries.

So, I don't understand how the boat would operate with these new-chemistry batteries. And with these Carbon foam batteries, do they have the same issues? Do we need to replace all of our charging controllers with smart, interconnected ones, and/or shut them all off when we think that the batteries are close to full, and not turn them on till the batteries are substantially discharged?

Looking for experience with this matter.

Not to cause you to end up in a loop of dithering, rxc, but just so you have the full picture you might take a look at this thread where I describe a retrofit with LiFePO4 batteries. 

The takeaway: LIFePO4 batteries are now available in  tamed form, no longer twitchy, and even better the charging regime is dead simple: constant voltage. No by-guess-and-by-golly, no bulk and  and absorb charge assumptions/guesses needed, etc.

Integration with AGM is easily possible. 

Thread: jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/8820/out-replacement-agm-drop-lifepo4

[petros42]

A friend sent me ayoutube article (see the end of this message) about using just ONE Lithium battery in conjunction with the house AGMs.  I and a few of my engineering friends have reviewed this and so far, we all think it makes good sense.  There are some caveats and precautions as identified in the video.  I have not implemented this yet, but once I've source a good lithium battery ... I'm in!

Youtube article:  
Or, if you are like me and cautious to click on links, go to youtube and search for:  Adding LITHIUM to your LEAD battery bank.

[zaphod]

Feb 1, 2021 18:02:15 GMT petros42 said:

A friend sent me ayoutube article (see the end of this message) about using just ONE Lithium battery in conjunction with the house AGMs.  I and a few of my engineering friends have reviewed this and so far, we all think it makes good sense.  There are some caveats and precautions as identified in the video.  I have not implemented this yet, but once I've source a good lithium battery ... I'm in!

Youtube article:  
Or, if you are like me and cautious to click on links, go to youtube and search for:  Adding LITHIUM to your LEAD battery bank.

That's an interesting idea! It might be something worth experimenting with in future, but I think I have sunk enough money into my DC power system for now!

[Damen af Kungsholmen]

Feb 1, 2021 18:02:15 GMT petros42 said:

A friend sent me ayoutube article (see the end of this message) about using just ONE Lithium battery in conjunction with the house AGMs.  I and a few of my engineering friends have reviewed this and so far, we all think it makes good sense.  There are some caveats and precautions as identified in the video.  I have not implemented this yet, but once I've source a good lithium battery ... I'm in!

Youtube article:  
Or, if you are like me and cautious to click on links, go to youtube and search for:  Adding LITHIUM to your LEAD battery bank.

[rxc]

This is the most interesting article I have seen, because it does not require any replacement or major alteration to charging sources. I looked at the Firefly carbon batteries, and they seem to be basically an improvement on AGM, and I don't want to mix chemistries.

My issues are:

1. Keep one chemistry on board, for ALL batteries.
2. I need batteries that can provide normal house loads, which are not that great, but can get very high if I use myinverter(100 amps)
3. The engine starting battery and the bow thruster battery need to have high CCA capability. My bow thruster battery does double duty as the power source for my anchor windlass, as well, so I want a battery up there that can deliver considerable current. It also has some heavy-duty cable feeding it from the main engine alternator, so the battery has to be compatible with the alternator regulator output, which normally just charges the house batteries.
4. It has to fit into the boat.
6. It cannot introduce any additional complexity to my electrical system. My wife already has no idea how to run the electrical system, and I am getting older, and am starting to occasionally "forget things".
7. Not too expensive.


I am going to stay where I am , with FLA batteries, everywhere. A big Group 31 in the bow runs the bow thruster, and one back aft starts the main engine. I can use the house bank (golf carts) to start the engine, and I can also use the small group 24 which normally starts the genset, to start the main engine, or vice versa. All the charging sources (ME alternator, shore power charger, solar, windmill, and generator alternator, are set up for FLA charging. I am getting too old to rewire the entire electrical system, again.

[dbostrom]

Feb 3, 2021 18:48:06 GMT rxc said:

This is the most interesting article I have seen, because it does not require any replacement or major alteration to charging sources. I looked at the Firefly carbon batteries, and they seem to be basically an improvement on AGM, and I don't want to mix chemistries.

My issues are:

I am going to stay where I am , with FLA batteries, everywhere. A big Group 31 in the bow runs the bow thruster, and one back aft starts the main engine. I can use the house bank (golf carts) to start the engine, and I can also use the small group 24 which normally starts the genset, to start the main engine, or vice versa. All the charging sources (ME alternator, shore power charger, solar, windmill, and generator alternator, are set up for FLA charging. I am getting too old to rewire the entire electrical system, again.

The truth is, if you care for these batteries scrupulously and especially don't cycle them too deeply, you'll do fine. By personal experience, lightly cycled flooded cells can go for close to a decade (emphasis on lightly). 

I say this as a person who has fully implemented a hybrid lithium+AGM system and am quite delighted with it. For my needs, I'm delighted. Your needs will not be the same as mine and so you will will likely be delighted to save a lot of money, in trade for a little bit of maintenance time and some simple good habits..