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Post by shenandoah on Sept 26, 2020 15:38:40 GMT
Hello,
I am new to this forum and recently purchased a new SO 440. We ordered the performance package and the standard keel. The boat arrived for commissioning with the shoal draft keel. Not a small detail to get wrong. I will see the boat for the first time on Tuesday to figure out what else was wrong.
My question for the group is if anyone has experience sailing on the SO 440 with both the standard keel and the shoal draft keel and how much of a performance loss is there with the shoal draft keel.
I know some will say we can go so many more places, and that is fine. Everyone has there own likes and dislikes. I am not interested in going places with shallow water, I am interested in sailing well.
Thank you and I look forward to being part of this community once we get this figured out.
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Post by jdl01 on Sept 26, 2020 20:57:22 GMT
If you like "sailing" your boat as opposed to being out on the water, you will probably be disappointed with a shoal draft, particularly if you enjoy getting the most from your boat going to weather. Your jeanneau dealer owes you a fix right bloody now and you should have the performance boat you ordered - it sounds like you want a sailing boat - not a party barge. Good luck with a good fight.
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Post by MalcolmP on Sept 27, 2020 6:30:23 GMT
I am presuming that you are USA based and that your 440 was built in the Beneteau Marion SC plant which is closing down.
It is not acceptable to have a shoal draft keel on a performance package. Good news is that changing the keel is not difficult and should be routine for a competent yard.
You should check if the rudder/rudders are correct too, but I think all 440 models have twin rudders presumably the same depth for all variants, but do check as on single rudder designs had shorter rudders with shoal draft.
We have a shoal draft 39i which was our choice from new as we then sailed in shallow waters, but I am aware that we loose performance compared with the standard keel.
In fact I asked at the time if the performance package could be added but was told by Jeanneau that was not an option as they had not calculated the stability with an enlarged sailplan.
Sorry that your Jeanneau ownership has started on the wrong foot, but this should be relatively easy to get resolved and the 440 has a great reputation.
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Post by shenandoah on Sept 27, 2020 17:34:09 GMT
Thank you that is very helpful information, especially about being told by Jeanneau that the shoal draft is not compatible with the performance package. Makes sense to me. Fingers crossed that all goes well with the dealer and it gets fixed.
This boat was built is South Carolina. I did not realize they were shutting that plant down. I hope that does not complicate things.
We are still looking forward to many fun years on the 440.
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Post by MalcolmP on Sept 27, 2020 18:19:23 GMT
Thank you that is very helpful information, especially about being told by Jeanneau that the shoal draft is not compatible with the performance package. Makes sense to me. Fingers crossed that all goes well with the dealer and it gets fixed. This boat was built is South Carolina. I did not realize they were shutting that plant down. I hope that does not complicate things. We are still looking forward to many fun years on the 440. Sure it will be swiftly sorted, but in case you have any issues with the dealer I will send you a forum message with the email for Nick Harvey the Jeanneau America President as would be worth keeping him in the loop at an early stage. |
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Post by shenandoah on Sept 28, 2020 14:05:40 GMT
Thank you, that is greatly appreciated.
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Post by zzmeyer on Sept 28, 2020 16:41:55 GMT
J boats did a study of performance difference of the J34c regular and shoal draft and concluded that the shoal draft was 8 seconds per mile slower upwind and about the same on other points of sail. Not a huge difference. I sail SoCal and Mexico where depth is never an issue so I wouldn't consider shoal draft, but if the J boat analysis is any indication I wouldn't be afraid of a shoal draft if shallow water might be an issue.
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Post by zaphod on Sept 28, 2020 21:00:49 GMT
J boats did a study of performance difference of the J34c regular and shoal draft and concluded that the shoal draft was 8 seconds per mile slower upwind and about the same on other points of sail. Not a huge difference. I sail SoCal and Mexico where depth is never an issue so I wouldn't consider shoal draft, but if the J boat analysis is any indication I wouldn't be afraid of a shoal draft if shallow water might be an issue. The Performance version is a taller mast and bigger sailplan that is designed to work with the deep draft keel. The boat would probably be very tender with a shoal draft keel. If you aren't sailing in shallow waters you don't want shoal draft, and when it comes to resale, it will be harder to sell in deep water areas. Anybody looking for a performance rig will walk away from a shoal draft keel. Jeanneau will make it right I am sure. |
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Post by zzmeyer on Sept 29, 2020 1:09:38 GMT
Agree with your later paragraphs. The righting moment of the shoal draft is the same as the deep keel.
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Post by zaphod on Sept 29, 2020 3:49:47 GMT
Agree with your later paragraphs. The righting moment of the shoal draft is the same as the deep keel. Same as the standard keel perhaps, but isn't the performance keel deeper than the standard keel? |
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Post by MalcolmP on Sept 29, 2020 6:01:58 GMT
Agree with your later paragraphs. The righting moment of the shoal draft is the same as the deep keel. Same as the standard keel perhaps, but isn't the performance keel deeper than the standard keel? Not sure if this applies to the newer boats like the 440 but in the past the shoal draft keels were significantly heavier, presumably to retain a similar righting moment. There was also a deeper keel option for the performance version, but the performance pack was available on the standard draft too, but not on shoal versions |
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Post by NZL50505 on Sept 29, 2020 8:33:07 GMT
But how could the shoal draft keels be “significantly heavier” whilst attached to the same hull as a standard keel? Wouldn’t that cause the boat to sit lower in the water?
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Post by Don Reaves on Sept 29, 2020 11:02:28 GMT
According to my owner's manual, a SO 35 with a standard (deep) keel has a displacement of 5250 kg, where it is 5485 kg with a shoal keel. Curiously, the maximum load is specified at 2000 kg in both cases. I suppose it must sit lower in the water, but it's probably a small effect, being roughly equivalent to three crew.
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Post by shenandoah on Sept 29, 2020 22:55:45 GMT
Just an update. The meeting with the dealer went poorly. They pushed back on fixing it and finally agreed but informed me that the boat would be delayed and I would have to pay an unspecified amount for the extra work. At that moment I ended the conversation and called in the attorneys.
To be clear this is a particular dealer and not Jeanneau. Thanks to your help I now have a contact direct with Jeanneau and will be informing them tonight. I knew i would eventually sail this boat through some rough seas, but didn't expect it to start so soon.
Thanks you.
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Post by NZL50505 on Sept 30, 2020 4:07:21 GMT
That's very disappointing to hear and I reckon that I speak for a few other loyal Jeanneau owners here that we feel for you and we feel ashamed that a keen new Jeanneau buyer is having to endure such a shocking pre-delivery experience. I hope you get brighter news by contacting Jeanneau directly - please keep us posted and also let us know any other ways we can help / support over the next wee while. Finally, and it's scant consolation right now I know, but for what it's worth Jeanneaus are great boats - even more so when they arrive to spec  We are in the process of buying our 2nd - after many attempts trying to fall in love with other cheaper and more readily available production brands we simply couldn't do it. So one day I hope you will feel your Jeanneau decision was the right one despite the bumpy ride at the start line! |
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Post by MalcolmP on Sept 30, 2020 6:24:15 GMT
Shenandoah, I am also disappointed with the dealer reaction, they should be able to recharge Jeanneau anyway. Important that the new keel is of course competently installed to the factory specs. Suggest you ask for a qualified surveyor to oversee. Inevitably there will be some delay, especially if the new keel has to come from France
I am sure Nick Harvey will expedite this, but keep me informed, I can give you direct contacts for France management if necessary, but I doubt that will be needed.
Best of luck
Malcolm
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Post by NZL50505 on Sept 30, 2020 9:19:08 GMT
Well done Malcolm!
This kind of forum owners support & camaraderie was another ‘feel good’ factor for me in choosing to buy another Jeanneau.
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Post by shenandoah on Sept 30, 2020 14:04:00 GMT
I concur. Malcom, I cannot thank you enough. While I am extremely disappointed with this particular dealer, I am still looking forward to being part of this community. Thank you!
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Post by shenandoah on Oct 2, 2020 20:19:06 GMT
Just wanted to close the circle on this and let people know that Jeanneau pulled through and is getting this fixed. While it was disappointing to have this kind of bump in the road, the help and support from this forum, and from Jeanneau itself, really makes one feel good about sailing a Jeanneau. Now I can't wait to get out on our new 440 and have something go wrong so I can come out here and find out exactly what to do. |
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 2, 2020 20:36:35 GMT
So glad this is getting resolved.
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Post by jcnyb on Oct 5, 2020 11:42:10 GMT
I suspect the initial push back from the dealer was indicative of where the fault lay. The system for placing orders with the factory has quite a lot of room for ticking the wrong box and making a mistake, very easily done and comes down to human error. When we place our customer orders, or order changes, we're very careful when putting it in and we have three separate people check the order from the customer tallies with the order placed at the factory. Even being careful we still tend to find one or two small discrepancies between the customer order and the factory order when we make that triple check - albeit rarely anything as major as the keel - as a result we normally don't end up with an mis-orders but I empathise with the dealer that its an easy mistake to make. That being said they definitely should have held hands up to this ASAP and admitted the error rather than trying to offload it onto you and it's good to see that Jeanneau have ultimately supported you to get it sorted. The 440 is a great boat and should be a huge amount of fun for you!! I hope you enjoy sailing less rough waters in the near future. |
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Post by MalcolmP on Oct 5, 2020 17:03:54 GMT
To correct part of my earlier post, the newer models like the 440 can safely have the performance rig on the shallow draft keel as they have more than enough hull form stability
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Post by NZL50505 on Oct 6, 2020 0:47:37 GMT
Just wanted to close the circle on this and let people know that Jeanneau pulled through and is getting this fixed. While it was disappointing to have this kind of bump in the road, the help and support from this forum, and from Jeanneau itself, really makes one feel good about sailing a Jeanneau. Now I can't wait to get out on our new 440 and have something go wrong so I can come out here and find out exactly what to do. That's great news! |
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We are in the process of buying our 2nd - after many attempts trying to fall in love with other cheaper and more readily available production brands we simply couldn't do it. So one day I hope you will feel your Jeanneau decision was the right one despite the bumpy ride at the start line!