Storm Jib For SO 44DS or similar cruising yacht

[garrymac]

Has anyone fitted a storm jib on a SO 44DS, or other Jeanneau cruising boat with furling head sail and single sheet jib car blocks.

The idea of removing the standard head sail form the fore stay track in heavy conditions sounds difficult and potentially dangerous.
a but dangerous.

Similarly, fitting a gale sail over the furled heady when the bow is bouncing up and down might be tough, let alone swapping the jib sheets to the gale sail.

A good solution would be a soft inner fore stay, attached to the mast and deck, but stowed against the mast when not in use.  But not sure how to do it 

Any suggestions welcome.

[MartyB]

I woikd do the mini fore stay. Do something like boats of my mid 80s era, have a 4 to 6-1adjustable set up to tighten this forestay.
This will allow to to tighten the stay in higher winds.vnay come in handy for your reg job in some conditions too.
Just make sure mounting place on your deck is a strong point.

Marty

[element]

I have installed a removable inner forestay on my 39i Performance:


To tighten the stay can be done effectively with a dedicated Wichard tensioner:


The load of this stay is under deck transferred by this to a bulkhead and hull:


Note that in the picture above the panel to acces the anchor winch is removed. So normally you will not see this.

Finally the force of the stay is transferred to a bulkhead, which is strengthened and laminated to the hull.

[garrymac]

Thank you element.
This is the first time I have seen a storm jib on this type of boat.

I would be interested to see more photos.

In particular I welcome your thoughts on the following points:

1)  how you have attached the removable fore stay to the mast?
2). I have a similar positioned strong point on the foredeck, but need to check positioning of the anchor well bulkhead or similar underneath to spread the load. I wonder if it would be strong enough as is?
3) I have a 2:1 code 0 halyard. I wonder  if that would suffice  to hoist a storm jib with inbuilt luff wire similar to the code 0.
4) It looks like you have removed the standard jib from its track on the fore stay?  Have you used storm jib with the standard jib furled, and if so did you change over the standard jib sheets to the storm jib?

much appreciated 
Garry

[ianpowolny]

here's my write up for our 45DS: jeanneau.proboards.com/post/25040

There's also a document inder Files on the Jeanneau Facebook page.

Ian

[element]

Hi Garry,

We only have our 39i for a couple of months and did not sail much last months (really a lot of wind here in the Netherlands past weeks). 
Also, except of the inner forestay and tensioner, all was already installed on our boat when we bought her. So I will not be able to answer all your questions completely but I will give it a try.

1) the fitting in the mast was already there, I do believe however that this is a standard solution of Selden, the rig manufacturer. I am sure that your local rigger can advise you about that.

2) the stay below deck is attached to a small bulkhead. This attachment is also strengthened by a bracket which is laminated to the bottom side of the hull. I don’t have good pictures of that yet but these will give you an idea 


Here a bit more detailed picture. If needed I can make better pictures:


This was as well already done by the previous owner. When we bought the boat I have asked our surveyor to double check if the construction was strong enough. He had no doubts about that.

3) I doubt that a 2:1 halyard can put the same pre-tension on the stay/wire in the sail as the Wichard tensioner. But I guess there is no harm in trying first.
Personally I like the Wichard very much (had it on my previous boat as well) because it is strong and ensures, combined with the hanks on the strom jib, that the luff stays straight and the sail has excellent upwind capabilities. My sailmaker will deliver as well a heavy weather jib for the inner forestay soon. This sail is about twice the size of the storm jib and will work fine, also upwind, in 6 to 8 Beaufort. I don’t like sailing upwind with a furled headlsail. So for longer trips with more wind I am used to rig the a working jib.
I hope never to use the storm jib but I expect I will use the working jib a few times per year.

4) the standard jib was only removed because it is winter and I also did not have a cover yet. Normally I will use the inner forestay with the standard jib still furled. I guess you ask this because you understand that is one of the biggest benefits of an inner forestay;  you don’t have to remove the standard jib in heavy weather whilst underway.
On my previous boat I used a second pair of sheets. The normal sheets can stay on but to prevent that these become strangled (not sure if this is the right English word for it), I prefer to remove the sheets of the normal jib. You have then to secure the furled sail with an elastic ball sail tie to prevent it will roll out.

Hope this helps,
Harald

[ohana]

I have a wrap-around storm jib, very similar to this, for my SO439:


uk.storm-bag.com/discover-the-wrap-around-storm-jib/

Not tried it in anger but plan to do so this year. Simple to deploy, no need to remove the existing genoa. 

[puravida35]

Feb 25, 2020 16:55:16 GMT ohana said:

I have a wrap-around storm jib, very similar to this, for my SO439:


uk.storm-bag.com/discover-the-wrap-around-storm-jib/

Not tried it in anger but plan to do so this year. Simple to deploy, no need to remove the existing genoa. 

As a fellow SO439 owner, I look forward to hearing how this sail works out.

[ohana]

Key thing I need to work out is how the sheeting will work. I have the performance version so have outer genoa sheet deck tracks but also have the coach roof mounted shorter tracks for the smaller standard size genoa. These coachroof tracks are likely to be a far better sheeting position than the deck ones for this small sail. But I also usually stow an inflatable dinghy forward of the mast and not sure if this also might interfere with the sheets. 

[teodoro]

Of course the inner forestay solution is the best one. But it's quite invasive and requires a lot of work (and money). 

So the "right" solution depends also on what is the expected use for you. Is it for longer passages / crossing? Then you probably need the best option, regardless of the complexity. Is it to tackle a once-in-a-summer bad weather day? then you may look at simpler ways.

Personally, I use one of the Storm Bags on my (smaller) boat. You simply roll the genoa, with its sheets. Then you wrap the closed bag around the genoa, it's a small bag that comes equipped with sheets, shackles and tack strop. You snap the shackles and come back to the cockpit. Then you hoist it with the spi / genny halyard from the cockpit and the bag will open as you pull the halyard.

It's not perfect, by any means. It's not super efficient and it works on top of your genoa with some friction, etc. But for me it's perfect to use it a couple of times per year.

And yes, it requires going forward to the bow. The task is not super difficult, but still can prove tricky in heavy conditions. I usually do it before leaving mooring / marina if the weather is bad.... only once I did it while in navigation.

Last point, folding it back in the bag is not fun! But still doable on the bow when conditions improve

You can find a video here  and more googleing around

[jy51]

I once make the mistake of crossing the North Sea during the winter months as skipper on my 37 feet sailing yacht, a passage that took 6 days with 3 crew members standing 3 hour watches. The wind speed never dropped below 42 knots true and the sea state was unimaginable and that was a force 9 strong gale not even storm levels.

Considering what we had to endure I really believe that a cruising couple would find even these conditions difficult if not dangerous to go forward to set a storm sail.

Whilst on another passage we experienced an Atlantic swell so bad it was actually impossible to leave the protection of our centre cockpit.

During these heavy weather experiences I found broad reaching with a heavily furled genoa or even bare poles gave us 8 knots of boat speed. The biggest problem was riding the waves, the correct speed and the motion was comfortable, too fast and we would drop off the next wave rather than slid down with it.

Feeling the answer to my problems was boat speed I went straight out and purchased a drogue. When the conditions start to be come unmanageable the drogue is easy to deploy from the stern of the boat. Never once have I considered a storm sail.

Just the thought of trying to beat up wind with a storm sail under these conditions makes me shudder!

[sitara]

A storm sail should give you the ability to get clear of a lee shore and to avoid embayment.

[jy51]

Feb 27, 2020 21:22:23 GMT sitara said:

A storm sail should give you the ability to get clear of a lee shore and to avoid embayment.

I would not disagree with you, a statement suitable for an 18 century, engineless sailing vessel, even the word embayment is a throwback from the days of square riggers with little ability to point.

To find oneself close to a lee shore in a storm, force 10 or above, considering we have relatively accurate weather forecasting today, would not be very professional to say the least.

Storm sails are normally constructed of a heavier cloth and fittings to cope with high winds and I’m sure someone more technical than me can explain how setting it on a baby stay moves the center of force further back to balance the boat better, but the whole point of my previous posting was to suggest that in the real world, under very severe conditions a light handed crew would not be capable of taking the sail forward and setting it.  The various videos that show how it is done are always carried out under benign conditions.

You certainly don’t need a storm sail in a force 6/7 or even touching 8, a well reefed boat will sail quite happily to wind, lee shore or bay, the only problem is the crew and their ability to cope.

If buying and fitting a storm sail makes you feel safer fine, it’s somewhat like having a man over board systems, great in principale but in a force 10 don’t even bother, the only answer for a light handed crew is not to go over, recovery is almost impossible.

The real solution is to experience close to survival conditions and then see what actions you would take.  I have been on boats in heavy weather were all the crew are exhausted to the point where seasickness and hyperthermia takes over, try telling someone that by going forward to a bow more representative of a bucking bronco machine and set another sail all will be ok.

[element]

I am with jy51 for 95%.

Fully agree that if winds are above 40 knots, you definitely don't want to sail upwind if not per se necessary.
Better to ride it out with wind and waves from astern.

With an Atlantic crossing in mind however, I would do without proper storm sails. I hope however never to use them.

I we logged more than 20.000 miles in 10 years with our previous boat (an Etap 34s). I never had to use the storm sails. 
There have heen however multiple occasions where I was more than happy with the working jib on the inner forestay. Sailing upwind between 20 and 35 knots it is so much better than a partially furled genua. The boat sailed higher, with less hell and faster than with a partly roll-reefed genua.

So the possibility of a flat working jib with hanks is the main reason to install also on our Jeanneau an inner forestay.
I expect to use for 99%with the working jib and hopefully less than 1% of the miles with the storm jib.

I will get the working jib for the SO39i Performance next week. I am anxious to use it.
The Performance edition has quite a tall/powerful rig and we have a lot of wind during wintertime here in the Netherlands. 

And in summertime, we make trips of 200-400 miles shorthanded (f.i. from the Netherlands in one go to the Channel Islands or to Norway).
For such trips, I will never leave with an predicted upwind course above 6 Beaufort. But weather in Europe is not very stable and it would not be the first time that we had to cope the last stretch with 7 Bft on our nose which was not forecasted.
Although this kind of weather is not comfortable, it gives me comfort that I can cope with these circumstances with sails designed for these strong winds. When we order a new mainsail, I will also ensure it has a third reef as well.

[jy51]

My comments were not to imply a storm type sail cannot be a useful addition to many sail wardrobes.

I do understand that in heavier winds some boats benefit from more comfortable and controllable motion by using such a sail. But again we are not talking survival storm conditions.

A well shaped small sail set further back from the bow can make it possible to keep punching through rough seas while maintaining a course without too much lee motion. On some boats this can also make the difference between a dry and a wet ride.

To be honest, my previous boat was equipped with offshore quality sails and rather than a large overlapping genoa, she had a number one jib with foam padded luff which would furl down to a small size while retaining a good shape.  

This always gave us the advantage to sail in rough conditions when others with a large overlapping furled down genoa were struggling to keep their boats up in the wind, after hitting each wave they would round up and almost come to a stop.

[element]

Thanks for sharing your experiences. 

My previous boat behaved quite well in strong winds, I am wandering how a more modern design like my new boat will behave in such conditions. Your Jeanneau Yacht 51 is even of a more modern design. How does such a modern, bigger yacht behaves in stronger winds and higher waves?

I have only coped with 40+ winds for brief moments during front passages. Not for a 3 day trip on the North sea like you described. Must be quite eventful to say the least.

[jy51]

So far I have only sailed my new boat in what one would class as uncomfortable conditions on two occasions.  Crossing the Golf de Lyon, and a crossing from Ibiza to Dénia in Spain.  Both times I was noticeably impressed by the big boats performance. Maybe that was to be expected after my personal experience coming from a much small 8 ton boat.

With 28 knots of wind and an agitated shallow Med sea on the beam we kept no than 10 to 15 degrees of lean while it was comfortable enough to walk around the cockpit and below without difficulty.  Experiencing these conditions on my previous boat necessitated bracing oneself in the cockpit and drawing straws to see who would go below to put the kettle on. 

I also found the modern hull form with flat bottom and wide beam gave very good form stability and speed as long as she was sailed well reefed and upright I believe that is the secret, being macho doesn’t make her go any faster.   My previous boat with more traditional shaped hull was a wetter boat and a boat that looked after herself regardless of how much sail she had out, she would track even when pushed over below her toe rail and never, when over powered felt like she would broach.  I would not like to push the Jeanneau beyond her safety zone she is a different animal and requires more input but gives in return a very pleasant and fast ride.

[henning39i]

Hi element -- your setup looks good. How do you attach the extra forestay to the deck/mast when not in use?
At what location is the wire/forestay attached in the mast (upper part)?
Thanks, Henning

[Bora]

I have a similar set up to element on my 469. With a hardy crusader storm sail and a specific halyard run....I’m yet to work out how and when I’d use it.
The sail lives in the forepeak sail locker, not the best for deployment in rough conditions.
The forestay is off to starboard until it’s rigged (needs a wire pigtail to make the last wee stretch)
Haven’t yet worked out how I would route the sheets as on the 469 I have the 106% which are forward cars and routed under deck to the clutches/winches....
I agree with JY51 that it’s something very unlikely to be used.
If I were to be crossing the an ocean and needed to make some headway over a few days rather than running downwind then the sail would bear be deployed but in all my current cruising grounds (west/east med) I’ve found 3rd reef in the main and a small Genoa to balance it (sometimes no Genoa as the CoE is too far forward) has got us through it.
Failing all that (and if there’s the fuel onboard) I’ll slow motor in the most comfortable way till it passes.
I think with storm sails you either have to be well warned of the weather and plan well in advance, or perhaps stow them on deck (ie not forward sail locker) and have a very sound procedure for getting them rigged.