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Post by srah1953 on Jan 20, 2020 12:34:43 GMT
Hi
Can I ask if anyone has any experience manoeuvring under power on one of new type Sun Odysseys (eg, 349, 410, 440). These have a shaft drive and twin rudders. The prop is very far aft, almost between the rudders. I would have thought that this configuration provided little possibility for prop wash effect to assist in manoeuvring. Obviously one can have a thruster but I'd like to be satisfied that the boat is fully manoeuvrable solely under power.
Thanks
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Post by jy51 on Jan 20, 2020 13:04:17 GMT
Hi Can I ask if anyone has any experience manoeuvring under power on one of new type Sun Odysseys (eg, 349, 410, 440). These have a shaft drive and twin rudders. The prop is very far aft, almost between the rudders. I would have thought that this configuration provided little possibility for prop wash effect to assist in manoeuvring. Obviously one can have a thruster but I'd like to be satisfied that the boat is fully manoeuvrable solely under power. Thanks Maybe not very helpful, but I do have a friend with the new 440 and was out sailing with him late last year in the South of France. I took the helm on a number of occasions and felt it to be light and responsive not dissimilar to my single rudder Yachts 51. On returning to the very small marine with sufficient wind to unpack the brown shorts, my friend did a 360 turn using the bow thruster and reversed into the small marina and onto a Mediterranean style berth with bow pick up lines, without much difficulty. Considering he is relatively inexperienced with the handling of this boat (although I rate his close quarter manoeuvring better than mine), I found he had no more difficulty than if it had been a single rudder boat. |
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Post by JEF on Jan 20, 2020 19:37:56 GMT
Hi we have owned twin rudder SO379 with no bow thruster initially many heart stopping brown pants moments and this experience in tight marina situations learned us to go everywhere astern and to keep tight control of your bow.
Now we own a SO440 with a retractable bow thruster which is deep setting and powerful ... now bow-in / stern- in no problem. IMO based on experience Twin rudder yachts a bow thruster is a must for stress free manoeuvring. |
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Post by rene460 on Jan 21, 2020 6:21:17 GMT
Hi Srah, our SO 30i has the same configuration and you are quite right, there is no propwash to help. In order to have steering you have to have boat speed through the water. I find we are good down to a touch below 2 knots. Then momentum rules.
I find that a centre cleat is our friend when mooring parallel. Had to improvise one as there isn’t one on our model, and it worked so well we still use the improvised arrangement. Going into a pen, I go in forwards, quite slow, though two knots feels fast when you are that close to a fixed jetty, neutral as soon as I feel we will glide at least part way in, then firm reverse when about half a boat length to go, just until I see we are stationary judged by the outer poles. You have to have confidence in your reverse thrust. At that point my wife can reach the bow ropes as we have a small finger jetty, and I can give a little nudge with forward or reverse as necessary. I also try and pick up at least one stern line and drop it over the cleat so I can push forward without worry.
I find reverse works very nicely if it saves you stopping while you turn before you go forward, just stand forward of the wheel facing aft, but you still need 2 knots to have steerage. On reversing out of the pen, I just keep going with good steering all the way up the fairway. And I am at the right end of the boat to see up the main channel if someone is coming along. Motor boats can’t be seen if they are behind the boats moored on other arms of the marina until you are right in their path.
Steers beautifully when sailing, even well heeled. We do have some steering below two knots after all in light wind, but you need patience and space. It is not sufficiently positive for manoeuvring in close quarters. Much as any boat without the propellor turning.
So we are quite happy with our boat and would not at this stage add a bow thruster. That said, if I was ordering new, or choosing between one with and one without, I would go for a bow thruster. Our little boat is too much to stop by hand by any crew, and the bow thruster give more options in tight situations.
rene460
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Post by srah1953 on Jan 21, 2020 10:30:25 GMT
Thank you all. Much appreciated. Confirms what I thought would be the case.
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Post by Fabrice-Erta on Jan 22, 2020 12:17:00 GMT
Having recently a sun440, I can confirm that it is feasible to manoeuver in small marina ( depending of the current and wind). I use the bow thruster which from my point of view is a "must have" . I just moor in reverse ( med style) and just press 2/3 short time on the bow thruster to secure everything. I suppose that a much more skilled person than me could have done without it. You have to be carefull when going forward to backward, the rudders should be place into "neutral" to reverse and gain speed quickly then turn the helm. Hope's this help. PS: I tried to find a translation for "brown shorts" and didn't succeed . I can imagine but would be happy to better catch it  Fabrice |
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Post by jy51 on Jan 22, 2020 15:15:29 GMT
Having recently a sun440, I can confirm that it is feasible to manoeuver in small marina ( depending of the current and wind). I use the bow thruster which from my point of view is a "must have" . I just moor in reverse ( med style) and just press 2/3 short time on the bow thruster to secure everything. I suppose that a much more skilled person than me could have done without it. You have to be carefull when going forward to backward, the rudders should be place into "neutral" to reverse and gain speed quickly then turn the helm. Hope's this help. PS: I tried to find a translation for "brown shorts" and didn't succeed . I can imagine but would be happy to better catch it Fabrice Hi Fabrice, regarding the translation, I’m afraid my slang French is no better than my normal french, as you well know, but “j’avais une peur bleue” might just work. But I do believe the English slang is more descriptive. And in my posting I was referring to my shorts as an on looker and not the captain, who at the time looked very composed. |
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Post by billy on Jan 23, 2020 14:27:01 GMT
I had my first season last Summer with wheel & twin rudders on SO32i.
After large transom hung rudder on tiller it was quite a learning curve!
Without doubt you will miss the Prop Wash 'Kick' effect and it takes getting used to.
Ours steers well even at low speed fwd & astern, but you will just never kick the stern quickly where you want to especially from stopped.
Under way motor or sailing it's very responsive and 2 rudders prob. has a large steerage area, just need to get your head around that lack of propwash
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2020 9:15:42 GMT
Hi Can I ask if anyone has any experience manoeuvring under power on one of new type Sun Odysseys (eg, 349, 410, 440). These have a shaft drive and twin rudders. The prop is very far aft, almost between the rudders. I would have thought that this configuration provided little possibility for prop wash effect to assist in manoeuvring. Obviously one can have a thruster but I'd like to be satisfied that the boat is fully manoeuvrable solely under power. Thanks Hi srah1953 I have sailed abt 1500 miles in France, Spain and now Portugal with my 2017 SO 349. Never needed a thruster, boat is perfectly to maneuver. Regards |
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Post by fabioc on Feb 13, 2020 21:40:14 GMT
I own a 2016 349.
Yes, the twin rudder arrangement takes a little bit to get used to it, especially in reverse, but once you master it, the boat is very maneuverable under power as well.
Basically, there is almost no prop wash effect, or at least it takes a while to experience it. For me, coming from a single rudder boat, the trick was to learn to be more aggressive with the initial burst in forward or reverse to get the boat going. In a strong crosswind, in order to get the boat to "bite" into the wind on a turn starting from no forward motion, you really need quite a strong burst.
The other thing to get used to is that, at low speed, because of the lack of prop wash, there is a little delay from applying power to seeing the effect of it. Initially, it can be a bit unnerving, since sometimes "nothing happens" for a couple of seconds after you apply power. However, it is quite predictable, so you can get used to it and learn to anticipate your power burst by a few seconds.
The prop walk is fairly marked, especially in reverse, so you need to master it to your advantage. Once you do, you can turn the boat on a dime. The boat will kick heavy to port when you use reverse to stop the boat, so you cannot count on it too much to correct an approach to the dock. I prefer not to use reverse at all to stop the boat alongside a starboard dock, but rather drive forward on a spring line. Perhaps the most challenging part with the twin rudders is to keep a very straight direction when going in reverse for long distances. It takes some learning (do it in open water for a few times), but there is kind of an optimal speed that maximizes control in reverse.
Overall, the boat is very nimble, especially when sailing, but with some practice under power as well.
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