Round up to wind 32i

[sherekhan]

i am experiencing a round up to and often through the wind on my 32i. Occurs in conditions of above 17 knots (true wind) reducing sail slightly does not help.
I assume my rig needs adjustment but any ideas of first hit solution. thanks

[Don Reaves]

My SO35 does the same thing unless I reef the main at about 18 knots of wind if I'm sailing upwind. Off the wind, this doesn't happen. If the wind is over 23 knots or so, I need to put a second reef in the main.

Rounding up is caused by having the center of lateral effort (where the average push on the sails) aft of the center of lateral resistance (where the average push of the water on the hull and keel). Shortening the main will move this forward, since the main will then contribute less than the jib.

If putting in a reef doesn't work, try shortening the headstay and lengthening the backstay to move the mast forward a bit. This will also move the center of lateral effort forward. Another thing you can try is to make sure the main halyard tension is greater in higher winds. This tends to flatten the sail, which will also help.

Good luck and happy sailing.
Don Reaves

[Geoff]

Hi Guys (SO36I)

We also reef at about 14 knots and also reef the genoa to the first spot. We find this balances the boat OK. We cannot adjust the backstay but by reefing/rolling the Genoa a little bit more, this should stop the problems. We do not have an adjustable back stay.

Happy sailing.

Geoff.

[so40gtb]

We usually put in the first reef at 17 kt (and furl jib to 130ish), second at 24 kt (and furl jib to 110). But she still rounds up when gusts get over 30kt, absent other tweaks and precautions.

We found that this can be avoided by using the traveler aggressively to spill wind from the main. We had a 15 nm run home two weeks ago in 20-35 kt winds and this worked quite well. Pulled main all the way up on the traveler and set the mainsheet to hold it as close as we dared on a close reach in nominal winds. Pulled down hard on the boom with the vang to tighten the main - worked this with the mainsheet to flatten the sail.

Basically, we kept the traveler in motion most of the time - up high in lulls and fully down in the worst gusts (mainsail was against spreaders). Weather helm was minimal; helm response was great; rounding up avoided in 95% of the usual cases.

This is on our SO34.2 ... your results may vary.

-- Karl

[Trevor]

Hello Sherekhan,

We have a SO36i and would probably have reefed the main twice by then and furled the genoa significantly. The longer we have the boat the less we like it leaning right over. My wife always reminds me to tension the backstay as well but to be honest I don't feel much difference.

If it gets too tough we may have the traveler to leeward and bear away a bit.

Regards,

Trevor

[pio]

I found that this is a well known problem for the SO32(i) with a depth of 1.50 mtr. I heard that with a deep keel the problem is solved.
But I also have the 1.50 mtr keel under my SO 32 from 2004. In the meantime I had a change on my headsail by a local sailmaker because the original standard mainsail had a poor shape and he made it more flat. And he made also a third reef in between the 1st and 2nd reef. I installed a mainsheet traveller in the cockpit and a backstay tensioner. This was all not standard on my boat. This year I had some damage on my rudder and I decided to install a new rudder with approx. 15% more surface (wider, not deeper).The changed rudder had for my boat the most effect. I heard from an Australian SO 32 owner (who sold the boat in the meantime) that he also enlarged his rudder. But he had the most improvement from a new set of sails from a well known sailmaker. So next year I will also buy new sails. And finally I'm thinking about installing extra ballast under the keel. As the underside of the keel is flat it should be not too difficult. Some 10 or 15 cm more depth and 100 or 150 kg more ballast should not be a problem for the strength of the SO 32 construction. Does anyone have experience with changing the keel? Of course I could install the original deeper keel of Jeanneau, but this is too deep and in the Netherlands there is a lot of undeep sialing water, so making it too deep will limit my sailing area too much.

[sinead]

I have a SF32 with a 2m keel. She will round up when the wind gets up there in the 20s. This is normal and I just reef and flatten the main before the headsail.

[flightdeck]

Hi Pio,
Well that Aussie SO 32 could be me, as we just bought her in Oct08. It's an 2002 model with a few sailing mods, with I think the main one being the rudder. I have a 1.5M keel and the rudder is aprox 25cm longer, will come unstuck one day for sure, it was OK in Sydney waters, but in Brisbane there are lots of shallow waters. We can carry full hoist at 20knots with no round-ups, bar from that we have only tried 25-30knots with full main and some motor, still no round-ups. The sails are just under 2years, dacron from North. Good sail's, I talk something better than dacron is a huge help, sail shape is King.
Shall keep this short.......for today.
Cheers

[pio]

Hi Flightdeck,

I assume that you bought John Taylor's boat. I had some e mail traffic with him last year. It's good to hear that the modifications on your boat have the result that you can keep full hoist at 20 knots or more wind. John Taylor wrote me at that time that the North Sails had the biggest effect of all modifications. This year I will invest in radar equipment and next year I'm thinking to buy new sails. It's now wintertime in the Netherlands and my SO 32 is laid up until mid of april.

Enjoy your sailing

Pio

[flightdeck]

Hi Pio,
you are correct it is THAT SO32 from John and John would know better than me if it was the sails that made the difference, in that case the original sails must have been some pile of ........rubbish.
I went to kevlar sails on my last boat we didn't have a round-up issue, but made a huge difference on speed and heeling, as I always say sail shape is King.

[flightdeck]

new anti-foul was done a few weeks ago by team wife and I ;D, went from a black bum to a light gray, looks soo much better, anyhow the best findings was that the rudder is not longer than the keel as I thought, it's the same length as the keel, which make's sense, man was I happy, had the saw, glass mat, resin etc ready, even allowed 1 extra day on the slip for the job, wondering what changes it would make to the boat handling,.... nothing, did not have to do a thing ;D I must have looked like that, plus we don't have to learn new helming trick's to keep her going best

[renegade27]

Agree with flightdeck - sail shape is King!

Just did our first race on our new to us JSO 35 (fugly shoal keel version). Winds about 18 knots - OK, just the second time sailing and I was adjusting the rig as the race progressed, but WOW - those Elvstrom sails are bags! We were rounding up every 5 mins or so!

2006 lightly used - I don't think the sails were blown out. Just poor design/ cut, I think. Could NOT get them flat no matter what.

I've got a lot to learn, including putting my backstay adjuster on this w/e, but something tells me I'll be contacting Mr. Doyle, Mr. Quantum or Mr. North this winter.

Any suggestions on getting these bags flat?! Been sailing my whole life, but none of the tricks I know seemed to do it.

Otherwise, and in every other way, we LOVE the boat!

[flightdeck]

Unless you can get a sailmaker to have a look at them with a view to have a re-cut, then there is only so much you can do with rig or rope's, in trying to flatten a potato sack. Why is it we buy sailing boat's and get poor quality sails, have seen yacht's under 12 months old changing sails. Never seen a motorboat change engine(s) due to the factory fitted one(s) were useless, lets face it those white things are our engine's.
And well made sails just brings so much more joy to the sailing, start saving Renegade

[renegade27]

Jul 19, 2008 10:10:47 GMT Don Reaves said:

My SO35 does the same thing unless I reef the main at about 18 knots of wind if I'm sailing upwind.....

If putting in a reef doesn't work, try shortening the headstay and lengthening the backstay to move the mast forward a bit. This will also move the center of lateral effort forward.....

Good luck and happy sailing.
Don Reaves

Hi, Don! Good technical response to this question.

I also have a SO35 with a round-up prob. I set out to take your advice and shorten the forestay and lengthen the backstay, BUT... much to my surprise the forestay is a fixed length (). I see no turnbuckle that I can adjust.

Were you speaking of having a rigger cut some length out? If not, at least on my boat, this is not an (easy) option....

Are other SO35's the same? I'm sure those close to my hull number (850) are...

[offshore]

Hi all

On the subject of sails our boat came with Quantum branded sails and although the workmanship in the sails was good the fabric they were made of was really stretchy. Within six months the main had turned into a baggy misshapen thing with a big s shape, as the leach stretched more than the middle of the sail. We had new sails made from kevlar laminate and they improved the speed and point of the boat. We asked a couple of sailmakers about getting the originals recut ,but with the stretchy fabric they all said it was a pointless waste of money. All yacht manufactures try and save money in these areas. It is simple maths. It makes the boats price more attractive and it makes the builders more money. Our hull number is in the 4000's. If They save $1000 a boat it adds up petty quick across the model range. Still I would have liked better sails.

We shortened the forestay on our boat as it was too long. There is a fitting available to allow a turnbuckle to be fitted in a tube within the furler drum for most furlers,but it is nearly always an extra. it took two riggers 4 hours to cut 2 inches off our forestay and refit it,but it has helped a lot with point and balance.

Barry

[Don Reaves]

Hi Renegade27,

I have not personally tried to shorten the forestay on my SO35, but I don't recall ever seeing a turnbuckle to make the job easy. I assume it would require the services of a professional rigger.

Don

[MartyB]

While I do not have an SO35 or equal, here is apic of my forstay, I just loosened all the side shrouds, rear stay, hooked the jib halyard up to the fordeck, and pulled the mast forward, then put the forstay in the lower hole you see in the pic. took us about 3'ish hours to figure out what all we had to do.

This did help a bit with some of my weather helm, be it with a spin or jib/genoa.

Marty

[jack35]

We've had our SO35 for about 6 months and have experienced frightening rounding up whilst close racing.

Crew knowledge has been a big issue and we've been practicing with that and adding traveller/sheet purchase to more easily manage it but ...

When we rounded up with just the headsail (had torn main and stowed it) in 25-30 knts I had trouble understanding the centre of effort business as it should have been so far forward!

Notes about sail shape by offshore seem sensible as ours are similar and can't seem to flatten them.

July 2009 ed of Yachting Monthly review of new SO30i Chris Beeson writes:

"Seized by a gust and charging towards one of the channel markers, she refused to bear away, even with helm right over, until the main was dumped and her broad stern was sitting back in the water, indicating the designer Marc Lombard had tweaked the balance of control and volume in favour of stowage."

Dumping the main is normal but we don't recover and have to let off the headsail as well.

So new set of sails I hope will resolve it, but that takes time and ...

I'm also wondering about crew weight - I've always pushed mine forward out of the stern but maybe I need to be packing the aft quarter like a "racing boat"?

I believe my forestay is pinned ie no adjustment, so maybe heading down that road too of fitting a turnbuckle as I seem to have a good bit of rake.

Thanks for your notes.

Cheers Jack

[MartyB]

Jack,

Crew wt too far forward in some conditions does NOT help weather helm. I've has some serious effert when my twin sons get forward during sail changes in winder conditions, where I was balanced before, they go forward, all heck breaks loose. So crew aft in stronger winds is a normal part of racing. Lighter wind send forward or to around the mast. OR if you have a huge anchor, try not to store on the bow except when you need it. Get a lighter anchor to get you set intitially, then put the heavier one out from down below.

Also, look to see if you are pinned as I am, you may have some adjustment yet.

Also, I had not seen the notes re the SO30i, wonder of the 33i is similar in handling............

Marty

[renegade27]

Here's another thought... I posted another question about the flat on the leading edge of the shoal draft rudder in this forum jeanneau.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=per&action=display&thread=804 .

Ultimately, roundups are caused by a stalling of the rudder. This is worse for the shoal draft since the rudder can only be as deep as the keel (and it almost is!).

Has anyone faired the flat out of the leading edge of the rudder to get effectiveness/ better flow from the bottom portion of the rudder as well?

Probably way overthinking this but as a professional engineer, lifelong sailor/ racer, previous club champ (on my '88 Pearson 31-2) and new JSO 35 boat owner I'm unhappy with the moderate air performance so far...

Still think new sails (main looks OK - jib looks poorly shaped with flat leading edge and hooked leach) are the best way - just wish my wife would agree after the major upgrade and outlay!

Yours truly, seeking perfection in all (and ALMOST finding it),

- Mark
(Pearson Renegade27 was my dad's first boat circa 1966.... FWIW!)

[jack35]

Hi All

Thanks Marty, I've been conscious to keep weight out of the ends, but I haven't been as aware to keep weight right aft in fresher winds.

Funny you've remarked about the anchor because I've also been doing the sums on the 45m of chain up there. She previously lived in coral - wish we still did - so am preparing to re-warp with nylon. We don't race for sheep stations and we use the anchor a lot in comparison to racing boats so need decent tackle ready to hand (oh my back) - but expect we can lose the equivalent of 1-2 blokes on the bow - great.

I did recheck and the forestay is a fixed length ie pinned top and bottom which means that with age/stretching the rake is increasing from the factory setup. We have no backstay adjustment yet as the binimi is in the way. It's going to have to disappear to get the weight right aft.

I noted your comments Mark renegade27 re rudder as the chap alongside me built a new rudder for his new NS 340 after considerable control issues (this is ~ 10 yrs ago) but I didn't want to pursue that until I'd exhausted my mistakes. With thousands of boats out there I'm prepared to give Monsieur Lombard the benefit.

Similarly with Don Reaves I start slab reefing the main at 15 knts and then at 20 knts rolling the heady to #2. I go the main first to preserve genny sail shape optimum for pointing. Maybe I should go the heady first??

I suspect that the sails are so full that they still develop considerable power even when reefed - so I tried a new heady off a 27 footer in about 20+ knts and we managed to go around pointing the right way, but it wasn't really blowing hard enough for the smaller sail.

Part of my dilemma is a friend has a 1999 SO36 which looks almost identical to our 2003 SO35 and he just motors around comfortably without any dramas. He has much better sails and hugely more proficient crew (including helmsman) and never reefs.

When our boat rounds up the rubber stoppers on the wheel quadrant seem to give me a false sense that I have more reserve in the helm (I'm used to a tiller) but by then she's gone and dumping the main won't get control back.

So I suspect new sails to be able to de-power better and we need to practice the main/helm coordination a lot more to try and keep that fat butt in the water??

But we're still learning and having lots of fun when not going sideways. (Sideways is very scary for my insurance excess.)

Cheers Jack.

[renegade27]

Hey, Jack!

Interesting... I've got a massive pile of anchor chain in the locker plus a big plow anchor hanging from the bow.

My boat sits bow down when at the dock - I've been keeping the bow water tank emptier than the stern but thinking once we load people aboard this would change.

Did you say that your anchor and chain are equal to two blokes? Have you calculated/ measured the weight?

I sail in a lake where the boat's got to be tucked away every night in its moring/ slip - no overnight anchoring allowed. So anchoring is generally in 15-30 ft - I know what we have is an overkill, just never considered the implications on control.

And on the topic on Mr. Lombard - - has any of you gone to Jeanneau with this characteristic/ complaint of rounding up? Would be interesting to hear his/ their response. It is OBVIOUSLY a broad-based problem with the boat handling! Think I will see what they have to say....

[flightdeck]

In general must be a common problem for Jeanneau and other wide bum make's, over 800 hit on this forum and not many 32's in the discussion, I must say.
Looking at everbody's 2cent's worth there are a number of issues
A: quality of sails
B: rudder's being under size
C: Rig setup
D: Crew work
With I think point A + B being the main problems.
I bought our 2nd hand SO32 late 2008, previous owner extended the rudder, and I'm no longer sure if that is in length or width anymore and they had some new north dacron sails made these are now 2 years old, (would enjoy some laminated ones)
I don't feel we have that big a round up problem, when we do, it's more due to oversheeting and lazy crew, that said......sail shape is King....not Michael Jackson

[offshore]

Hi Jack

My 36i also seems to sit slightly bow down in the marina,but when we put 500Kg of crew in the back the trim looks ok. Our boat came with 10mm chain and that weighs 2.3kg per metre. I had not really looked at how much that adds up to when you work it out.

After Dumping the main in a round up you need to regain rudder control by centering the helm briefly to allow the water flow to reattach to both sides of the rudder. In a round up the rudder stalls and if you keep the helm hard over it will stay stalled until the boat is nearly stopped. Seems the wrong thing to do ,but sometimes it works. Once the rudder starts working you can have another dig at getting the boat pointing where you want it to.

Barry

[MartyB]

Jack.

Reef the main first, at least that is what I do, or go to a smaller jib being as I do not have a RF system. A carbon 155, an Ullman CAL 140 for palying/cruising day sailing when not racing, a North soft norlam 110, I go the first summer of owning my boat, when I realized I had the original 135 and main, not a 110 and main as I was told. ALong with a 130 drifter, ie a 3 oz nylon for winds under 6 knots or so, and an original storm jib that I have used twice.

The laminate sails are nicer than my old dacs, and to a degree, I find the 155 and even the 140 to be better in equal conditions than the 110 for lack of stretch. The Ullman Cal sails, can be had for the same price as there offshore dacron, but to me, even if a % or two more, worth it. Lighter in overall wt, and hold there shape longer in lifespan and higher winds, and will catch zephers better too.

An anchor or lots of chain is not worth having up front if need be.

And one "SHOULD" have the boat slightly nose down when at the dock with no one onboard, so that "WHEN" you do have 2-4 folks in the cockpit, you are then level. I personally would not put an anchor up front to get this nose down want tho, I would move other things up front, ala my bags of sails etc, so they are lower in the boat etc, and not cause you as much hobby horseing.

Then it sounds like some of you need to shorten your forestay, along with setting up the back stay with a hydraulic or some kind of a split backstay, or my boat came with a mechanical twist the handle BS adjuster. I believe it is a Goiot like most of the rest of my stuff, before I removed most of the Goiot and put in newer harken sheaves, carrs etc.

marty