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Post by sfh on May 20, 2015 13:48:37 GMT
Hi,
I have a CT125 MAXPOWER bow thruster on my Jeanneau 53.
Though I have gone through the manual a number of times I still dont manage to understand how the battery combiner/relay works - i.e. how the 4 x 12V batteries are combined to deliver 24V.
I am not happy with the current charger setup and I feel that the bow thruster batteries are constantly under-charged however to be able to change the setup I need to understand the present setup first.
Can anybody help?
Thanks
Steen
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Post by sailingsouth on May 20, 2015 14:35:12 GMT
Steen
How many batteries total do you have? Do you have a dedicated battery for the thruster? Also, do you feel its not charging with the engine running? Or plugged into dock power and still not charging? Or both? Have you checked it with a meter? Get a volt meter test it with shore power then engine running then nothing runing see what its doing. Should show 12v plus or minus a bit with no charge and 13v plus a bit when charging.
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Post by sailingsouth on May 20, 2015 14:56:44 GMT
Not having a wire diagram for your boat I'll try my best to explane how the sytem works. BTW, I have a 2005 43DS 12v system.
You should have 2 battery banks, one for the engine starting and the other bank for the house. The house bank should have more batteries usually 3 or 4 and the start battery is usually one 12v but in your case your engine might have 2 batteries to make it 24v.
Ok, to make 24 volts out of 12 volt batteries they need to be connected in series (12+12=24v). Now that you have 2 batteries that equal 24v you add 2 more batteries connect them the same way then connect the 2 sets in paralell. Lots of batterie power in a 24v system. This is just for the house system. Now you do this for the start battery system. Both 24v systems are completely seperated. They are seperated so you never risk running the start battery dead and should always be able to start the engine.
Now to charge both battery banks..... In a nut shell, a big red wire goes from the alternator to the combiner/relay then splits and goes to each battery bank for charging. This is with the engine running only. Your shore power battery charger is a completely seperate system that also should go to each battery bank.
Hope this helps
Scott |
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Post by sfh on May 20, 2015 17:03:45 GMT
Thanks to both of you. I am bit beyond "the red wire" and the "black wire"  I am trying to figure out how I can improve performance of by bow thruster bank. It is 4 x 12V OPTIMA RED TOP batteries in a 2xp /2xS setup. The two pairs of batteries meets up with the charger cable running from the Cristec MOSFET 3-split isolator next to the house bank. Looking at the junction box marked 269: I can see that it combines to 2 x 2 12V into a 24V bank which is then again charged via the isolator (15). It looks rather complicated and as I am in the process of upgrading my alternator to a Balmar AT-165 including a MC-614 regulator I want to ensure that I understand the entire system before "turning up" the charge current Hope that explains Steen  Attachment Deleted |
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Post by sailingsouth on May 20, 2015 17:46:58 GMT
Steen, so let me get this right, you have 4 12v (2 24v sys) batteries just dedicated to the bow thruster? How many house batteries are there? And do you have a dedicated engine battery?
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Post by sailingsouth on May 20, 2015 17:57:47 GMT
Good for you on the upgrade to Balmar. What your going to end up doing is throwing out the isolator and installing the Balmar Duo Charge. www.balmar.net/duo-charge.html the duo charge will charge the thruster batteries the 614 charger will charge the house batteries. This is exactly what I did. I went with the 150amp Alternator and installed a large fuse. I also had to upgrade all my wiring in the alternator system. It was too small for the 150amp alt. |
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Post by DUET on May 20, 2015 18:22:32 GMT
On my 50 DS, I too upgraded the alternator power by adding a Balmar 165 amp (series 95), a Balmar alternator temperature sensor, spike protector, battery temperature senor and a three stage regulator. The addition wasn't easy as I had to install mounting kit and cut a small notch into the bed to allow the installation. My thruster is powered by two Optima Red Top batteries and is charged by the engine and/or shore. A note however, because I added 2000 amp inverter, the genset was no longer charged by shore power as they were insufficient terminals on the inverter. I hence installed a second charger dedicated to the genset. I have house battery capacity from four house batteries and an  add on battery of 680 amps. By installing a switch, I can access the alternator for the engine as the house system is isolated from the starting side. Hope this is helpful. Another thought: I had the issue of the thruster shutting down at the wrong time. Having talked with Maxx, I discounted the wiring that controlled the shut down. Still have to be careful not to "over do it" with the thruster. |
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Post by ianpowolny on May 20, 2015 20:07:43 GMT
Steen, I don't fully understand how the battery systems work on these boats but when we arrived back at the boat this year we clearly had a problem with our bow thruster. When I checked out the bow thruster batteries one was swollen so we changed out both batteries, like for like Red Tops. Since we've made the change last week the whole battery system on board seems to hold more charge for longer. As I said I don't fully understand the battery system but certainly it is operating more efficiently with new Red Tops in the system. The old ones were 2008 vintage. I've decided that I'm going try not to change any of the on board systems if I can help it. I've concluded that I could make changes but after 6 months on board last year and now a month so far this year the system may not be the best but they seem to work fine. Come October and I may have changed my mind.   u Ian |
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Post by sfh on May 20, 2015 20:46:30 GMT
Good for you on the upgrade to Balmar. What your going to end up doing is throwing out the isolator and installing the Balmar Duo Charge. www.balmar.net/duo-charge.html the duo charge will charge the thruster batteries the 614 charger will charge the house batteries. This is exactly what I did. I went with the 150amp Alternator and installed a large fuse. I also had to upgrade all my wiring in the alternator system. It was too small for the 150amp alt. Sailingsouth, Exactly what I intend to - and a decision that started my entire review of the system. Simply to understand the Cristec MOSFET splitter/isolator and how to get rid of that triggered the issue about the low charging of my bow thruster batteries. Do you only have one Duo Charger? How do you charge your starter battery? I have - 6 x 110Ah in the house bank - 1 x 100Ah starter - 4 x 55Ah combined to deliver 24V in the bow thruster bank |
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Post by sfh on May 20, 2015 20:48:34 GMT
Steen, I don't fully understand how the battery systems work on these boats but when we arrived back at the boat this year we clearly had a problem with our bow thruster. When I checked out the bow thruster batteries one was swollen so we changed out both batteries, like for like Red Tops. Since we've made the change last week the whole battery system on board seems to hold more charge for longer. As I said I don't fully understand the battery system but certainly it is operating more efficiently with new Red Tops in the system. The old ones were 2008 vintage. I've decided that I'm going try not to change any of the on board systems if I can help it. I've concluded that I could make changes but after 6 months on board last year and now a month so far this year the system may not be the best but they seem to work fine. Come October and I may have changed my mind. u Ian Thanks Ian, It looks like you are running a 12V bow thruster with 2 x RED TOPs. I have 4 combined in a strange way to provide the 24V for the CT125. What I dont understand is how this is combined and charged properly. Steen |
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Post by sfh on May 20, 2015 20:54:14 GMT
On my 50 DS, I too upgraded the alternator power by adding a Balmar 165 amp (series 95), a Balmar alternator temperature sensor, spike protector, battery temperature senor and a three stage regulator. The addition wasn't easy as I had to install mounting kit and cut a small notch into the bed to allow the installation. My thruster is powered by two Optima Red Top batteries and is charged by the engine and/or shore. A note however, because I added 2000 amp inverter, the genset was no longer charged by shore power as they were insufficient terminals on the inverter. I hence installed a second charger dedicated to the genset. I have house battery capacity from four house batteries and an add on battery of 680 amps. By installing a switch, I can access the alternator for the engine as the house system is isolated from the starting side. Hope this is helpful. Another thought: I had the issue of the thruster shutting down at the wrong time. Having talked with Maxx, I discounted the wiring that controlled the shut down. Still have to be careful not to "over do it" with the thruster. Thanks DUET I spoke to BALMAR and they confirm that there is room for the AT-165 including the serpentine kit (but not the AT-200 without altering the installaion) on my 4JH4-HTE No sure I get your explanation on the inverter/genset? Would be great if you have made a schematic that you would be willing to share Thanks Steen |
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Post by sfh on May 20, 2015 20:56:59 GMT
Steen, so let me get this right, you have 4 12v (2 24v sys) batteries just dedicated to the bow thruster? How many house batteries are there? And do you have a dedicated engine battery? Hi again, I have - 6 x 110Ah in the house bank - 1 x 100Ah starter - 4 x 55Ah combined to deliver 24V in the bow thruster bank /Steen |
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Post by abgreenbank on May 21, 2015 7:16:35 GMT
Hi just wondering how old your boat is, the latest 53 DS is fitted with 125amp alt and serpentine belt, so the balmar alt and regulator is not such a large improvement, especially if a proper regulator is fitted.
On my 50DS that also has 125amp alt I have dispensed with the cristec split charge unit and used a stirling power alt to battery charger and a CVSR so all 3 battery banks are charged. I also have a stirling power battery charger that charges all three banks as a backup, the main charger being a stirling power inverter/charger that only directly charges the main battery bank.
have a the onan generator but it doesn't get much use yet.
Have a victron bluesolar mppt charger and to keep an eye on everything a Victron battery management system.
the way everything is set up even the thruster battery bank is topped up by the solar, and I haven't had a thruster cut out yet, but I think this is primarily to stop overheating.
after one year all works well except the Victron bluesolar mppt charger which is being replaced under warrenty that has never produced much output, turn out that there is software problem with this box, I just thought my panels were poor, would have been nice of Victron to inform its customers.
regards
ab
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Post by Zanshin on May 21, 2015 10:57:39 GMT
I have a similar setup with 4x Optima redtop batteries forward to power the 24V bowthruster (which is a Vetus in my case). That battery bank consistenly has a lower voltage than the main house bank. It turns out that my battery charger, a Victron Quattro 5Kw, doesn't charge that battery bank and it only gets charged when I run the main engine. Since I don't use the engine much at all, this bank can often read a lower voltage for a while; particularly if I use the bowthruster to move the bow around in order to pick up a mooring and then don't run the main engine for a couple of days. Could this also be the same on your boat?
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Post by DUET on May 21, 2015 14:19:32 GMT
Steen:
On my 50DS, I added a 2000 amp inverter/battery charger. There are only two poles for connection, one for house and the other for starting. As such, there was no room to connect to the genset for charging so I installed another charger dedicated to the genset. Unfortunately, I don't have the schematic.
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Post by sfh on May 21, 2015 14:27:11 GMT
Hi just wondering how old your boat is, the latest 53 DS is fitted with 125amp alt and serpentine belt, so the balmar alt and regulator is not such a large improvement, especially if a proper regulator is fitted. On my 50DS that also has 125amp alt I have dispensed with the cristec split charge unit and used a stirling power alt to battery charger and a CVSR so all 3 battery banks are charged. I also have a stirling power battery charger that charges all three banks as a backup, the main charger being a stirling power inverter/charger that only directly charges the main battery bank. have a the onan generator but it doesn't get much use yet. Have a victron bluesolar mppt charger and to keep an eye on everything a Victron battery management system. the way everything is set up even the thruster battery bank is topped up by the solar, and I haven't had a thruster cut out yet, but I think this is primarily to stop overheating. after one year all works well except the Victron bluesolar mppt charger which is being replaced under warrenty that has never produced much output, turn out that there is software problem with this box, I just thought my panels were poor, would have been nice of Victron to inform its customers. regards ab Hi ab The setup you have put in place is exactly what I am chasing. My 53 is from late 2010 with a 80amp charger. 80amps is too the lower side with 660Ah house bank, starter battery and the thruster bank. Should have the BMW-702 +CGCX battery management up running next weekend. The Victron MPPT is installed but will only be connected once I have the rest in place. Interested to know more about the Christec. Did you replace it? Do you have a wiring plan that you are willing to share? Regards Steen |
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Post by abgreenbank on May 21, 2015 18:22:11 GMT
Hi the cristec was replaced by the stirling alternator to battery charger, it's a fancy regulator than makes my alternator produce 120 amps for an extended period, have a look on the stirling power website, I have a 160 amp version as I was planning on a balmar alternator as I thought in was getting an 80 amp alternator with the boat, bunt Yanmar now specs the 75 hp 4jh4 TE with 125amps and a serpentine belt.
However the alt to battery charger can only do starter and house battery bank ( it's very clever to give priority to the starter bank) so I installed a stirling power CSVR which basically charges the thruster bank from the main bank but only if the house bank is above a certain voltage.
I would think that balmar offer a similar regulator and duo charge I think they call it that will do the same thing. My clamp meter tells me 128 amps from alternator initially and even after an hour if the house bank was well down, 120amps, all these regulators do is con the alternator into thinking the battery voltage is low so they work flat out, however they will get the alternator warm/hot but generally have temp sensors to reduce output if the temp runs away
the alt battery charger uses all the cristec cabling except the thruster bank that is attatched to CVSR
the whole setup is quite easy once you have identified what's what on the jeanneau side
initially I was concerned that you wouldn't be able to 3 stage charge the banks using the 80 amp inverter/charger and the 60 amp charger at the same time but the BMW 700 shows it all works fine, just got to remember not to have the inverter and separate battery charger running at the same time, yes the batteries get amps from the charger but not as many as the inverter is using!
i haven't bothered looking at thruster battery setup, I can charge it 2 ways and monitor it's voltage so I'm happy.
if u you look on stirling powers website lots of schematics for the ideal world, which I basically followed, the only flaw in my system is that the inverter charger won't charge the batteries from the generator, but can from the battery charger but that's only because I put the inverter charger on the shore power side of the shore power/generator AC selector switch, which can be change but lots more cable needed.
if you are buying a balmar alternator and serpentine kit please be very careful from whom, just search on cruisers forum and you should easily find a company that probably is best to avoid, caveat emptor.
which Victrom mppt charger are u using my 75/50 is being replaced by victron, some software problems apparently, well mine is pants at the moment, thought initially it was my cheap solar panel, but it's the expensive top of the range charger.
if you need more help please ask
regards
alistair
ps coppercoat being applied tomorrow, very exciting!!
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Post by ianpowolny on May 21, 2015 20:10:08 GMT
Alistair, I'm hoping be around your way latter in the year so I'll pick you're brains then.  Ian |
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Post by sfh on May 22, 2015 9:06:49 GMT
Alistair,
Thank you for taking your time to provide such a detailed reply. I really appreciate that.
Hope I will meet you out there one day and then beers are on me.
Cheers
Steen
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add on battery of 680 amps. By installing a switch, I can access the alternator for the engine as the house system is isolated from the starting side. Hope this is helpful.
