Inner forestay 43DS

[manaia]

Hi all,

I am contemplating installing an inner forestay on my 43DS (2002). I understand that the stay can be factory fitted, does anyone have details or photos that they can share?

I would like to fit a furling genoa for heavy winds - there appears to be 2 main choices for this.

Either a Solent stay (fitted near the top of the mast) which removes the need for runners, or attaching the stay near the top spreaders (and so is roughly parallel to the existing forestay), but should have runners to support it.

I'm also interested in the deck plate fittings (using the anchor winch bulkhead for support) and whether anyone has set up without using runners, what are your experiences with sailing like this ?

Advise and suggestions appreciated, Regards, Steve

[Donrob]

I once stumbled upon the site of a 43DS owner who fitted an inner forestay. This is the link:

www.mediterranean-yachting.com/Galana-River/improvmts.htm

[manaia]

Hi donrob,
Thanks for the link - it looks like a substantial installation.

Does anyone have pictures of a factory installed deck plate?
Does anyone use an inner jib without running back stays ? Does the factory installed equipment include runners ?

Thanks, Steve

[sailbleu]

What I would like to see is how that innerstay is attached to the mast.
Since my mast is down for a complete stay replacement it could be wise to provide the mast with an innerstay preparation

Regards

[sailbleu]

I haven't been doing nothing in the mean time , after some research I decided to make a similar fix as the Selden nose tang.
pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/selden/yacht-product-catalogue-version-6-a4/21696-45231-_27.html
Maybe , if Malcolm thinks its valuable this article could be of some use for the H&T section.

EDITOR: Complete article is available at:
www.jeanneau-owners.com/hintsandtips/forestaytang.html


Sparmast has made things easy for us to install a fixing point for an inner forestay.
Selden , but also Wichard sell the necessary gadgets.
With the Selden fix the mast has to be down and the mast top needs to be taken of to slide the nose tang in.
Wichard on the other hand has two seperate parts that can be slided in from the outside and then bolted together.



First things first , make a small example of the front mast curve/bent so I can copy that to the base of the nose tang.



I'll start by making the base. 5mm thick SS and the small width does make it hard to get the proper curve/bent into that base.Heating it up makes it more cooperative.




Then hammer it down to the right angle




That is that as they say in the business




Cutting out the actual nose was a bit of a guesstimation , I didn't have any factory sizes.




After the cutting a primary cleaning up of the surface was in place , also drilling the holes.




Taking the angle into consideration




Cutting thread , I was reluctant to use rivets.





Making a template of the holes so that could be easily set on the mast.No lucky drilling shots for me thank you.




Time to get things together. Temporary fix




After obligatory checks (angle ) Time for some real welding



Acceptable result I would say , I'm still an amateur you know




Nice 24hour bath in nitric acid to eliminate any iron residues.




Once arrived at the mast I first checked the curve/bent. I could live with this result.






Marking the drillholes



The top mast had to come off to slide the nosetang in.Before screwing in the bolts I made sure to squeeze some Tec7 between the base and the inside of the mast so no Alu/SS contact was possible.



Voilà (sorry for the French Malcolm  ) my mast has gained a shiny tiny nose.



Leaves me to get a proper stay , but what's more important ,finding out on how to make a solid deckfix for the innerstay.

Kind regards

[sailbleu]

Now my question , if you allow me that is.
Does any 40DS or 43DS owner have any pictures on how the deckfix of a inner forestay is done ?

I know the H&T section has an example , but I'm not very keen on ruining the front cabin view you see.
I was wondering how a factory setting is made.


Regards

[MalcolmP]

Apr 28, 2013 7:37:34 GMT sailbleu said:

I haven't been doing nothing in the mean time , after some research I decided to make a similar fix as the Selden nose tang.
pdf.nauticexpo.com/pdf/selden/yacht-product-catalogue-version-6-a4/21696-45231-_27.html
Maybe , if Malcolm thinks its valuable this article could be of some use for the H&T section.

Is there nothing that you would not tackle? Most impressive

I have now loaded it up at:  
www.jeanneau-owners.com/hintsandtips/forestaytang.html



keep those ideas coming ;-)

Malcolm

[sailbleu]

Thanks Malcolm , I only wish I could find a 40DS boatowner with a factory installed inner forestay so that would give me some inspiration on how to make my deckfix.
I really hesitate to copy the H&T example . Besides , not exactly the location for the deckfix I had in mind.
I found an other project on the net , but that owner reinforced and extended the deckfix by means of a ....not sure how you call it in English , pipe that goes all the way to the bow where it's been glassed in.
That support had to run through the forward cabin , awfull sight of course.
Not many inner forestay stories (with pics) to be found in cyberspace. Regrettable infact.

Regards

[MalcolmP]

If the inner forestay will only be used for storm sails, maybe you could have the strengthening tie inside the cabin as a removable "hand billy" tackle? That way you could have the reinforcing point glassed to the hull with a neat eye in the headlining which you only had to use when setting up the stay?

Malcolm

[sailbleu]

Yes Malcolm , I'm aware of the possibility of a removable cabinstay , or extension of that anyway.Tie down I believe it's called.
Most likely that will be the outcome , I dont plan of using the existing deckfix just like it is , that will surely rip the deck off.
I was hoping the topic starter could elaborate on his findings and/or decision , but up to now it's been very quiet. Strange though , no follow up is present.
Is there really no 40 or 42DS owner with a factory installed innerstay ?

Regards

[Trevor]

Nice work Sailbleu,

I don't have a need for this but do like to read and see your handiwork. Very industrious and the end result very professional. I am a weekend amateur TIG welder and really like to see others projects.

Very impressive,

Regards,

Trevor

[sailbleu]

Thanks Trevor , it's always nice to receive a compliment. But next to getting one , I also like giving a few , that's why I'm a great fan of the H&T . Only wish more boardmembers would make articles of their DIY projects.
Like last year , where (thanks to Malcolm's intervention as an in between and after permission of the member !) I could get hold of the email adress of a member who posted a homemade bowsprit article.
Turned out to be a US retired engineer who gave me some insights on materials and their strenght , resulting in giving me the confidence to make my own sprit.
I never got around in sending a pictorial essay to Malcolm because I thought one bowsprit on the H&T would be enough for him.
Anyway , what I'm trying to say is that posting homemade stuff is not to be considered as showing off (which is definitly not the case in my case) but as sharing information that can help us all.
I think each article is a small incentive for others to do the same , there's is so much ingenuity on the internet , it's just a matter of getting it to the right place. The H&T could/should be one of those places I think.



Thanks to a boardmember , this simple construction is capable of supporting a 100m² gennaker.

In the mean time I also know never to run a Gennie a windspeeds above 5 Beaufort , the bowqsprit was more than man enough to handle that ,he didn't budge an inch , the Gennie however

Oeps , this is sliding to the off topic area , but it also keeps the topic alive and could work as a wakeup call for the starter.


Kind regards

[manaia]

Well, my research has not been able to turn up as much and as I had hoped.

Another 43DS, Monkey Fist, is in NZ on its way through to French Polynesia and a friend kindly took some pictures of the deck fittings.


Attachment DeletedAttachment Deleted

Paul and Francis have emailed that their deck fitting does not take much strain:
"re the staysail: no there has been no re-enforcing of the deck. The reason is that the deck takes very little of any extra strain. The deck fitting is actually a through-deck fitting. The underside of the fitting is attached to a plate at the foot of the stem by ss wire with a turnbuckle. In our case the stem foot fitting also acts as a bobstay chainplate for our moveable prodder for our asymmetrical spinnaker. Even without the need for a bobstay then a plate at the foot of the stem takes the strain of the staysail, not the deck itself. "

I too would prefer not to put a reinforcing wire through the fore cabin....

[manaia]

Another view of the deck fitting on Monkey Fist



Attachment Deleted

[ianpowolny]

Attachment Deleted



Here's the info I got from Jeanneau for our 45DS (2008).

We have a 110mm x 11mm slot in our Z-Spars mast and will have a Wichard 9150 babystay tang fitted.

I should also say we used a Wichard 10mm watertight u-bolt. If you use the Wichard u-bolt go to Halfords and buy 2 anti-vibration nuts. The ones that come with the u-bolt are only plan and I suspect will lossen in time.

The tang cost £45 and the u-bolt £25.

Jeanneau have also advised that we use 8mm s/s rope for the forestay. Owen Sails can make the forestay with tensioner and fit the lot for £600.

The underdeck plate is an original Jeanneau part purchased through our dealer in Brighton. Don't ask why I use a Brighton dealer and live in Scotland!!!

[sailbleu]

Hey Manaia , thanks for elaborating.
Your respons was helpful , be it that I'm not eager to make a fix that close to the windlass.
The more I come to think of it , the more conviced I become a tie down is eventually inevitable.
But the thought of glassing in a plate to the bow scares the hell out of me.
That means grinding the area to get a proper fix for the glass/epoxy.
Not the work itself , but the idea of the grinding dust is repulsive.
Been there , done that a few years ago (see H&T P-bracket repair) and I can tell , it's a real nightmare.

And then there's the sight of a wire , or better yet , SS extension (pipe) running trough the cabine .
But on the other hand , this could turn out to be convenient for building up an extra storage in that lost corner using the tie down as central fix.
Maybe with some creativity we could be making a virtue of necessity.
Oh boy , this needs some contemplation.
Like this brainstorming though.

Regards

[sailbleu]

May 2, 2013 19:06:55 GMT ianpowolny said:

View Attachment

Here's the info I got from Jeanneau for our 45DS (2008).

We have a 110mm x 11mm slot in our Z-Spars mast and will have a Wichard 9150 babystay tang fitted.

I should also say we used a Wichard 10mm watertight u-bolt. If you use the Wichard u-bolt go to Halfords and buy 2 anti-vibration nuts. The ones that come with the u-bolt are only plan and I suspect will lossen in time.

The tang cost £45 and the u-bolt £25.

Jeanneau have also advised that we use 8mm s/s rope for the forestay. Owen Sails can make the forestay with tensioner and fit the lot for £600.

The underdeck plate is an original Jeanneau part purchased through our dealer in Brighton. Don't ask why I use a Brighton dealer and live in Scotland!!!

Hey Ian

Can I make a suggestion with regards to the inner forestay.
600£ for just one stay ? Sweet lord , that must be a golden one.
No serious now , there's nothing to it to hook on a stay ,so again , 600£ is a lot of money .
I recently replaced my complete rigging (with invoice) and payed 1800£ , 10 stays that is , including brand new tensioners, the lot so to speak.
Installed it myself , the mast is down you see.

www.tuigerij-online.nl/webwinkel/verstaging-op-maat/bestel-hulp
This is the Dutch online company they ship to anywhere I would think.(I'm not affiliated mind you !)

I took your example for a 15 meter/8mm stay including tensioner and a top toggle terminal and came to 191£.
I thought I just mentioned it.


Back to the deckfix , your solution (jeanneau's suggestion) looks OK , but it has to said , its' getting a bit crowded at the bow no ?
Genoa furler , storm sail furler , anchor .
It's a no can do for my part , my bowsprit would not agree I guess.




But thanks for sharing the info .
Regards

[ianpowolny]

I want everyone to understand that the drawing I put up is Jeanneau's engineered solution for the lower end of the inner forestay. They sent me the drawing and the parts pick list along with the sail plan for your 45DS. Z-Spars told me they use the Wichard 9150 as standard on their masts.

[manaia]

I think I would like to retain even a small gap between the forestay and inner forestay to assist when tacking the genoa. If the inner fore stay was terminated right forward in the bow, it may impede the passage of the genoa. We have friends who furl the genoa for each tack, but this does not sound like much fun...
This is why the stay terminating near the anchor winch is appealing, it retains a sizeable gap between the stays for tacking.

I am away on the boat this weekend, so will have a closer look at the situation, and perhaps some inspiration...

ps. Sailbleu, my adjustable genoa cars are working just fine, thanks agin for your picture. I have copied your single line and need to luff the boat to move them forward, but easing them aft is a simple matter of slacking the line. A better shape for a furled jib without leaving the cockpit, magic !

[sailbleu]

Infact , what is the best place to put up a storm sail (high aspect sail) ?
I would think it's better to bring it a bit towards the mast no ?


Regards

[manaia]

My solution in the end was to get a smaller jib, in fact the genoa required replacement and as we sail in a windy part of the world, a smaller headsail made sense.

The jib is able to be used unfurled in up to 20 knots comfortably and then I roll a portion of it away. This reduces the pointing ability, but hopefully we do not have to beat to windward too often...
We probably suffer being underpowered in lighter winds, around 10 knots and less, but we are happy with the trade off - and of course there is no cable through the cabin.

I have seen sailbleu's modification, a neat ss beam to spread the load across the underside of the deck, we will file this solution away for a later time.

[bedfordman]

Mar 19, 2013 6:10:45 GMT manaia said:

Hi all,

I am contemplating installing an inner forestay on my 43DS (2002). I understand that the stay can be factory fitted, does anyone have details or photos that they can share?

I would like to fit a furling genoa for heavy winds - there appears to be 2 main choices for this.

Either a Solent stay (fitted near the top of the mast) which removes the need for runners, or attaching the stay near the top spreaders (and so is roughly parallel to the existing forestay), but should have runners to support it.

I'm also interested in the deck plate fittings (using the anchor winch bulkhead for support) and whether anyone has set up without using runners, what are your experiences with sailing like this ?

Advise and suggestions appreciated, Regards, Steve

[bedfordman]

You are getting plenty of advice!  My input is: go for it.  Fitted inner/ babystay to our 45.2 and performance is transformed.  
Apart from the fact it looks great. Especially with 2 foresails goose winged. And mast security in bad weather is enhanced. 
 
Ours is parallel to the foresail.  We don't have furling on the babystay.  The advantage is that with hanked on sails you can have big one for light winds used with the main genoa, and,  storm one for use on its own or with small amount of main-- allows sailing in 30 plus kn.      Ours babystay has detachable foot so you can hook it away--  we never do, so my advice is don't bother with that.