Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on May 3, 2012 0:01:46 GMT
I have a brand new US production 409 that is on it's 2nd failed electrical panel. At least that's what the dealer thinks thus far. The problems: LCD Display Errors and Back Glowing red LED's on selected switches that are OFF. DC voltage readout fluctuations (between 11.0 and 12.9 VDC when the batteries were actually 13.8 or better). Low Voltage Warning Beeping... Water tanks showing empty warnings when full, and/or not displaying one of the two water tanks at all (i.e. only Tank 1 displays). Back Glowing LED's of Deck Flood Light and Steaming Light Switches while switches were off. Occasionally (two days in the last 5 months) the panel would behave and all indications were normal. Hmmm. Also, when the panel acted up, the Raymarine ST70 windspeed would depict wild wind speed readouts up to 130 kts when blowing only 10-12 kts. Round One Dealer Repair: first panel replacement was combined with Isolating the VHF Antennae from the mast...the back glowing LED phenomenon ceased on the Deck Light and the Steaming Light Switches in their off positions. All worked well for about 10 hours, motoring some, sailing some. Ran the Raymarine Radar unit for 20 minutes while motoring at 2400 rpm. Problems resurfaced... Now getting a back glowing flickering red LED of the Instrument/Nav Power Switch in the off position plus all the wacky LCD voltage, water tanks readouts as mentioned above...and the ST 70 showing wild variances in windspeed. Any similar experiences out there?
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Post by sitara on May 3, 2012 6:23:36 GMT
Hi Vivacite, The LCD panel (Scheiber) on our new SO36i is not showing water level in one tank. This problems appears to be due to a missing control module that joins the intank sensor to the wiring loom. Not the same problem that you are having. A 409 at our club is having hassles with the control panel but I do not know the details.
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Post by tedp on May 4, 2012 7:54:12 GMT
It is difficult to give a useful answer at a distance, but several of the symptoms you mention may be related to faulty earthing. If I was that dealer I would fit a wire to a known earth connection and touch various chassis parts behind the panel with it to see if it goes away. Put in a floating fuse for safety... Edit: using a voltmeter to check on chassis voltage against a known earth connection would be even better. They should all return zero volts. If any one is showing a voltage it may be suspect. I would do so with various groups switched on or off, testing all possible combinations.
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on May 6, 2012 18:09:12 GMT
Thanks for the posts folks, dealer tech coming out tomorrow with new circuit board. We'll see what happens next! Ciao, Ciao
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don
New Member
SO 439 June 2012 :)
Posts: 5
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Post by don on May 14, 2012 1:49:30 GMT
From what you have described, I would suggest you have an earth leakage problem
Hope this helps
Don
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Post by Tafika II on May 15, 2012 23:30:52 GMT
I would be VERY interested to know what the factory does to fix these problems, especially the volt meter readings and this seems to be a chronic problem with false alarms on a lot of models. Make sure they have the AutoPilot, radar & Raymarine systems on a completely separate DC circuit. If they have it wired to a reply, it will shut down your system.
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Jun 6, 2012 15:27:52 GMT
Hey folks, the latest in the saga...The dealer replaced the LDC (this makes this the third LCD). NO CHANGE. A few weeks later the Jeanneau sent an entire new Master Switch Panel. Swapped out, NO CHANGE. I believe there's a leak to ground...but where? When the domestic batteries are switched on, there are some systems that are "hot." They are: the LP gas valve, Electric Toilet, Shower Pump. And "monitored systems: Water Tank 1, Water Tank 2, Fuel Tank And Battery Voltage Shunts. The low voltage problems (alarm coming on) happens sooner when motor battery switch turned on. I took delivery 6 months ago, and these problems surfaced the day I took delivery with the dealer's VP of Sales on board! My dealer is 12 hours away motoring. I'm beginning to lose patience...
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Post by tedp on Jun 6, 2012 17:55:35 GMT
If the low voltage alarm comes on when you switch on the engine battery, there may be an inadequate earth connection between the engine and the rest of the system. I once had a car with a loose earth cable to the engine. All the instruments would point to funny values. Took me weeks to find out.
Try clipping a starting jumper cable (from a car emergency starting set) between the minus pole of the engine battery and the minus pole of the house battery. See if the alarm goes away.
Don't they have a qualified electrician to sort this out? Replacing components won't help if there is an underlying problem.
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Jun 7, 2012 0:14:54 GMT
I appreciate the input. The house bank of batteries and the motor battery share the same common ground bus, in fact the house bank's negative parallel cable daisy chains right up to the solo motor battery...from the motor battery to a ground bus bar. I talked to the VP of Sales at the dealer where I purchased the boat today. They are trying to get Jeanneau to provide a comprehensive wiring schematic since the dealer's is limited (same as mine in my owner's manual). So, basically we are down to isolating the items/wires/relays that are "hot" when the batteries are switched on...and yeah, the switching of the motor battery to "on" compounds the problem of the LDC panel's glitches/readouts/alarms. Also weird: my motor "self-started" due to an apparent faulty Yanmar engine panel rocker switch in Dec. 2011 before I took delivery. That switch was replaced. I was told it would be safer to turn my motor battery to off at dock. I turned the motor battery switch to OFF one night and my friend said "hey, your Glow/Stop rocker switch is flickering! (ALL other switched electrical items off except house battery switch on). Enough for now
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Jun 7, 2012 0:19:10 GMT
sitara...Do you have any information on the 409 at your club with the the Electrical Panel issues? I'd like to get in contact with them. Thanks.
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Post by sitara on Jun 7, 2012 1:18:36 GMT
Vivacite, I will chase him up when I an down at the club this weekend. I don't have his contact details. If I can't contact him this weekend it will have to wait a few weeks as we will be away overseas in warmer climes! (not with the boat unfortunately).
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Post by tedp on Jun 7, 2012 7:47:46 GMT
I appreciate the input. The house bank of batteries and the motor battery share the same common ground bus, in fact the house bank's negative parallel cable daisy chains right up to the solo motor battery...from the motor battery to a ground bus bar. I talked to the VP of Sales at the dealer where I purchased the boat today. They are trying to get Jeanneau to provide a comprehensive wiring schematic since the dealer's is limited (same as mine in my owner's manual). So, basically we are down to isolating the items/wires/relays that are "hot" when the batteries are switched on...and yeah, the switching of the motor battery to "on" compounds the problem of the LDC panel's glitches/readouts/alarms. Also weird: my motor "self-started" due to an apparent faulty Yanmar engine panel rocker switch in Dec. 2011 before I took delivery. That switch was replaced. I was told it would be safer to turn my motor battery to off at dock. I turned the motor battery switch to OFF one night and my friend said "hey, your Glow/Stop rocker switch is flickering! (ALL other switched electrical items off except house battery switch on). Enough for now That is funny! If the ground bus of both systems is connected up that should be OK. A flickering light from the engine panel when the engine battery is off could mean they have crossed a wire, connecting a +12V from the house battery bank instead of the engine battery. Or there is a short circuit between the two systems. But probably you had that figured out for yourself.
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juanluis
Full Member
Posts: 25
Jeanneau Model: SO 409 Performance
Home Port: Valencia
Country: Spain
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Post by juanluis on Jun 25, 2012 17:07:32 GMT
Hi Vivacité, I was delivered a SO409 three weeks ago, and have observed some of the electrical panel problems you have described (Glowing red LED's on selected switches that are OFF, DC voltage readout fluctuations, low voltage warning beeping...) after installing Raymarine equipment (radar, wind, etc.) The local Raymarine installer has put an earth connection in the mast and for the moment the problems have been fixed. I’ll post again if there is more information of interest.
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Post by Tafika II on Jun 25, 2012 18:31:57 GMT
Hi Juanluis! I have a 2008 SO42DS and had some of these same problems. I was wondering if you might tell me where they ground from to the mast to make the earth connection. I have a SSB ground plate and could use that also, but I am unsure from where is should originate. FYI, I had my entire Raymarine system taken off the Jeanneau relay circuit and split the autopilot, chartplotter and radar into three separate circuits directly back to the battery with a #6 wire 30A fused line due to the voltage fluctuation as low as 10.8VDC. Since then I have never had the system go down.
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Post by tedp on Jun 25, 2012 18:48:29 GMT
Any chance the Seatalk cross-instrument power supply is the culprit?
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juanluis
Full Member
Posts: 25
Jeanneau Model: SO 409 Performance
Home Port: Valencia
Country: Spain
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Post by juanluis on Jun 27, 2012 9:39:52 GMT
Hi Tafika II, I have asked the Raymarine local installer about the earth connection. He told me that he put a 10mm. cable from one of the bolts at the foot of the mast to one of the bolts which fix the keel to the hull. If you want more information, don’t hesitate to ask.
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Post by Tafika II on Jun 27, 2012 14:35:46 GMT
Hi Juanluis! Thanks for the reply. I understand what you state, but where does this tie/connect into the electrical system as a ground? Thanks
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juanluis
Full Member
Posts: 25
Jeanneau Model: SO 409 Performance
Home Port: Valencia
Country: Spain
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Post by juanluis on Jun 29, 2012 17:54:52 GMT
The installer put antiparasite filters (I hope this expression is correct in english) in the Raymarine displays also. As for the mast, that's all he's done. He thinks the problem here has been caused by the vicinity to the radar of the port authority and to the airport radiobeacon. I've been sailing today and all was OK.
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kahuna409
New Member
SO 409 "Kahuna"
Posts: 6
Country: USA
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Post by kahuna409 on Jul 5, 2012 14:29:45 GMT
We have a 2011 SO409 that we took delivery in May last year. Last August the raymarine fluxgate compass failed while out cruising. That night while at anchor the battery alarm went off. We had been playing the stereo and using lots of lights, so at 2am I ran the motor for an hour. When I shut off the motor I still had the problem. The panel showed varying voltages from something like 12.3 to 11.5. Checking the batteries with a multimeter showed them all at 12.7 volts. Later in the day I noticed the wind speed instrument reading up to 130kts. Obviously I was becoming very concerned.
I reported all of this to the dealer and they promptly replaced the fluxgate. I am not sure if that had anything to do with the other issues, but they went away. We went on a 10 day cruise in September with no problems and basically put the boat away for the season.
This year, with cool weather and other trips we have only used the boat a couple times. Last night after watching the 4th of July fireworks in Barton the battery alarm went off and all of the symptoms you mention were present, though I have not checked the wind instrument yet; voltages for both batteries reading varying low voltages, water tank showing 1/4 when I had just filled it yesterday, will not display water tank 2, panel lights glowing slightly with switches off, multimeter check shows house bank at 12.8 volts.
Has the dealer found a solution for your situation? I will be contacting them later today.
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kahuna409
New Member
SO 409 "Kahuna"
Posts: 6
Country: USA
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Post by kahuna409 on Jul 8, 2012 5:17:04 GMT
This is really strange. I left Docton/Burton July 5 and everything was once again working fine. Spent 2 days in the south Puget Sound, then on the way back north, headed into the Docton area for the night. As we approached Docton, I noticed my wind speed indicator reading 130kts. Apparent wind was actually about 10. Shortly I after I shut off the motor, the low battery alarm went off and all of the symptoms listed above were once again present. WTF Maybe there is a program glitch in one of the chips on the power panel circuit board.
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Nov 24, 2012 6:31:12 GMT
Guys and Gals...I am STILL fighting these problems. I took delivery of the boat December 2011, and it's been nearly a year and these problems still persist! 11 visits to my boat so far by the dealer: nine trips to my dock in Tacoma, WA., two trips by me to Anacortes and back. So, over 48 hours of run time on my Yanmar for two round trips to Anacortes from Tacoma. Cumulatively, the boat has spent a month at the dealers dock in Anacortes. Numerous electrical switch panel replacements, numerous LCD panel replacements. As to the wind overspeed: the wind pod/transducer has been replaced, the anemometer has been replaced. Still not working correctly. They even de-masted my 409 and rewired all the mast internals. Now, it appears that the fuel tank sender is a possible culprit. The dealer techs put in a quick disconnect junction for the fuel tank sender wire going into the main electrical switch panel. With the fuel tank wire disconnected, the water tanks now read properly and the voltages have stabilized. However, Switching the motor battery on and off still yields changes to the domestic voltage readout. And I'm still getting a reverse polarity light for a/c shore power when we've exhaustively affirmed that there is no reverse polarity coming into the boat. And still getting backlit/"glowing" LED's on various deck light switches even when the switches are off. The dealer has been doing all they can. However, I am not impressed with Jeanneau America at all. I've had to initiate calls to get things moving, and they suck at follow-up with their customers. Here are some links to some video clips I put together coming home from the dealer with the problems supposedly fixed. Forgive me for the poor quality since they were produced from my iPhone. Again, if anyone else is having these problems, lets talk. Send me a message/reply here on this post please! I do understand my dealer has experienced problems with some other new Jeanneau models as of this post...I'm not alone, but we have yet to really identify the "smoking gun" so to speak. I just hope my electrics don't fry out. This experience has totally soured my new boat purchase.
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Nov 24, 2012 6:38:55 GMT
Hey Al, "kahuna409," To your question in your above post: I've been told the guys at the South Carolina plant are trying to duplicate the problem and can't. They have finally admitted that other boats are having problems, but only in the Northwest US. HMMM.
Apparently I'm the "only" 409 with these problems? Not so if you still are! And if you are, please chime in. It's time to resolve these very frustrating problems. Ciao, Peter
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mpj
New Member
SO42i p - Zosha
Posts: 6
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Post by mpj on Dec 6, 2012 12:44:18 GMT
Hi,
All the symptoms you have, seem to point to a problem in the ground wiring (as someone said earlier in this thread). I looked at the owners manual of my SO42i (not the same, but same electric panel and likely similar installation) and unfortunately the drawings are quite ambiguous on the details of the grounding wires. Anyway, the likely place for the fault is somewhere between the electric board (behind the switchboard) and the battery compartment negative rail. Could even be a faulty terminal block behind the panel (the one that connects all the wires to negative and positive supply) or a poorly crimped connector terminal in the connector of the switchboard. Check all the terminals and ground wire connections for loose screws etc (well, your dealer should have already checked those, if they have a professional electrician).
When there is a poor connection in the ground side, the voltage on the remaining grounds fluctuates and/or rises significantly in reference to the battery minus rail. If it rises high enough, the current may find another path to the negative battery rail, e.g. through the LEDs or fuel gage (depending on where/how they are grounded). For example, I had the deck-light LED glowing when I had a poor connection at ground wire going to the mast: When switching on the steaming light, the current (or part of it) went through the deck-light (that has common ground with the steaming light) to the LED and through it to the ground. But like I said, in your case I guess the problem is between the electric panel and the battery negative rail. One way to check this is to measure the voltage between the negative terminal block in the panel and the negative battery terminal. It should be well below 0.5V even with high load and practically 0 with low/no load (the lower the better, but the cable sizes are a bit on the low side so there are quite high voltage losses between the battery and the switchboard).
In my opinion the switch on the fuel gage wire just hides the problem from the LDC meter (simplifies the circuitry, removing a possible alternative ground path), but does not fix the real issue.
Hope this gives at least some clues to solving your problem.
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Vivacité
Junior Member
SO 409 - Vivacit
Posts: 17
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Post by Vivacité on Dec 16, 2012 18:41:12 GMT
After a year, I finally got an email from Jeanneau America..."BGM" (Beneteau Group Marion). They seem to believe my problem is in the fuel tank sending unit which is causing all the stray voltage to perpetrate the ground side of the electrical system...Even into my Raymarine Seatalk System thus messing up my wind readout. However, they tell me the problem is isolated to boats here in the Pacific Northwest, NOT the Vancouver, Canada dealer but to boats sold by the dealer in Anacortes, Washington, USA. I don't think it's isolated to just boats here as these "issues" seem to be popping up around the world....And when the two year warranty runs out, folks are simply finding other measures to fix or reengineer their boats...and the factory is now "off the hook" so to speak. So now I'm trying to solicit input from everyone that knows of or has a Jeanneau with these problems to truly get to the bottom of these anomalies. My dealer has an extremely talented marine electrician (24 years as a Naval Electrician) who has, with his team, exhaustively researched the problems with my boat thus far. I've had her just over a year now...and the problems still persist. Thank you for your inputs on this thread!
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kahuna409
New Member
SO 409 "Kahuna"
Posts: 6
Country: USA
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Post by kahuna409 on Jan 13, 2013 8:28:16 GMT
Just checked back into this thread. "Kahuna" SO409 is still waiting for the dealer to fix the problem. It is very sporadic on our boat and only seems to occur when sailing for a few hours or sitting on the hook and the batteries drop a few volts. The dealer asked me to disconnect the fuel gauge sending wires when the problem was happening and all of the symptoms went away. Reconnect the fuel gauge wires and the bug was back. They said this was an indication but not the cause. Like I said, we are still waiting for a resolution.
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