Iron Keel Question 2003 S043DS

[yachtingtypes]

The joint between the hull and the front of the keel has started to rust. The attached photo gives some detail but I would say about 1/4 inch has rusted out.

So my question is how do I treat the rust and what do I use to fill the gap. Also I need to re-caulk the rest of the hull/keel joint. What is the best caulk to do this. I will be painting it with anti-fouling in a few weeks.

Many Thanks.

[MartyB]

time to get out the grinder, clean really well, then put some new epoxy over the keel, then bottom paint. Silkaflex is one type of caulking for lack of better work that should work in the joint. 3m's 4200 or 5200 is another. I do not remember which is better, the 4200 is ringing a bell, but could be wrong.

Marty

[sailbleu]

I own a 40Ds , so the keel is somewhat similar.
I also had the same problem as you do , be it not that severe.
If you can find the patience to wait a few more weeks , I intend to post a story and pics from a complete hull/keel/rudder overall.
Meaning scraping all the old AF off , treating the whole ship below the waterline with epoxy barriercoat and coppercoat (homemade) .

I will show you a few pics and supply you with some info now , maybe you cant wait for the essay . I'm waiting for warmer weather to do the hull you see.
I allready did the keel last week , taking advantage of the couple of warm days we had over here.

First of all , scrape the complete keel.
Grind all the rust .
Reshape it with homemade epoxyfiller , meaning refill the holes you made by grinding away the rust.
The epoxyfiller can be made with epoxyresine and added aerosil untill you get a substance like pindabutter.
Dont exaggerate with the filler , aerosol filler is very hard to sand , but is completely watertight.
Afterwards sand the lot .
Cut away the joint (keel-hull) , sand and degrease the area ,tape around the joint and put on Sikaflex 292
With a wet or soapy finger make a smooth new joint.
Take off the tape immediatly after finishing the joint.

Now the keel itself:
After sanding the complete keel, degrease everything.
Prepare the epoxyresin for the first coat , the resin is transparant and I suggest you add some pigment to it (grey) so you have a distinct color difference for future sanding.
After the first coat is tacky (not wet , not dry) put on the second coat.
Same procedure for the thirth coat.
You can also buy the ready-to-use product of course , you'll be paying alot more than when you make your own epoxyprimer.

Then it's up to you to choose and put on the finishing coat , be it normal AF or like in my case (selfmade) coppercoat.

Sorry for the story in a nutshell , but I'm saving my efforts (I'm posting in what is for me a foreign laguage you know) for the coming extensive article as soon as the weather allows me to get the hull done while taking pictures .

Here's a few to get you through if your on a tight schedule for your keel.


Rust coming back every time during the season.



Previous temporary solution with Tec-7 for the losening joint didn't help that much , the Tec-7 came off gradually.
Sikaflex 292 is no doubt a better product. Sorry no pics of that procedure.
Remember degreasing is very important.



Homemade colored epoxy , I've put on 3 (very thick) coats of that.



Ok job done , ready for the coppercoat. Remember , each coat (coat on coat) has to be done within 24 hours -maybe less due to higher temps where you are- so you have a chemical bond between, the coats.
If you wait untill the epoxy is cured you need to sand everything before putting on another coat.
As a rule of thumb , chemical bond is better than mechanical.


Now the coppercoat goes on.
My mixture is 1 (weight) part epoxyresin (resin and harder) and 2 parts copperoxide.



This is (after 2 coats of copper epoxy) how my hull should look like in a few weeks time (depending on the weather here)
I need (dry) temps of atleast 15°C (55°F) around the clock for curing and to prevent amineblush.

Good luck

[Seagem]

That looks a really good job Sailbleu! Can you recommend where to get the copper oxide from? I believe it has to be cuprous oxide (CU2O).

[sailbleu]

Hi Seagem ,
indeed , cuprous oxide is the name of the game.
I have ordered mine in the Netherlands , please checkout " www. Polyservice.nl .
Paid nearly 70 Euro for 2,5kg (5,511 pounds)
Ordered 7,5 kg , that will cover 2 coats , hull , keel and rudder. (being in my case 30m²- 132.0 in²- in total)
More info on resin and CU2O consumption later on.
Dutch site though , but I'm sure they will respond to English mails.
I've checked the internet up to Ebay. com (US) , couldn't find any cheaper (less expensive that is)
Even contacted a UK company , they dont supply for domestic use.
China is the cheapest . But , huge quantities and high shipping costs are the problem.
Very hard to find other internet suppliers , I found this strange , is copperoxide a hazardous product or what ??

Regards

[yachtingtypes]

Many thanks for all your replies.

As much as I would like to strip the keel and refinish, I just don’t have the time at the moment.

I think I will grind out the rust and apply InterProtect 2000E for the first coat then apply Interlux VC watertight epoxy fairing compound, as needed. Then finish with another 5 coats of InterProtect.

The one question I still have is the use of phosphoric acid (Ospho) immediately after grinding. Although it sounds as though this is the way to go I am not sure about how InterProtect will bond with it.

Does anyone have thoughts or practical experience with this?

[sailbleu]

If I where you , and I would not have the time right now , I would choose for a temporary job.
The interprotect stuff is not really the cheapest of all , and when you decide to adress the keel in a serious manner you will have to get all those expensive coats off again.
Besides , not filling up the grinded area with epoxy filler will make the keel look like it his been run over by a train.

May I again suggest to grind the rust away , put on 4 or 5 layers of plain epoxy (1 liter mixture is more than enough) so the naked iron is sealed.
No hassling with acid and all.
Normal AF on top and that will get you through the season.

A day's work , 20 Euro-15pound -25$ and next year you turn that keel back to a beauty again.

If however you hold on to your strategy , after applying the acid a good rinse will flush the acid remains to the sewer no doubt.

Regards

[yachtingtypes]

I was reading an article from Practical Sailor about keel maintenance and they recommend three coats of zinc chromate paint as epoxy will not stick to other paints at the patch overlap.

On the other hand I assume that a Jeanneau keel already has an epoxy barrier coat so exposing this at the edge of the patch would allow a sound bond for the epoxy.

Does this sound reasonable?

[sailbleu]

Yes of course , your boat will have an epoxy barrier coat , that is standard procedure for all recent (I would say the last 15 years) boats.
Look at the pictures of my hull , you see patches of white - which is the gelcoat - and you see patches of grey - which is epoxy barrier coat.
Scraping and afterwards sanding my ship has got me through the epoxy occasionally.
No prob in my case since I will repaint everything.

Indeed , epoxy will not stick to self polishing AF.
Therefor you need to sand dow an area below the rust spots so you put on some epoxy also.
But again , all will depend on what your plans are.
Do you intend to adress the keel properly next year , do a low budget repair job now like I suggested.
If on the other hand you don't want the hassle , rub some zinc on and use international or whatever the shop gives you for a keel job.

To tell you the truth , I couldn't live with the thought of a keel looking like a rollercoaster.
But that's me of course.

You know , the way I see it , this is a 3 or 4 day job to do it properly , dont let anyone tell differently , epoxy sticks to metal like a 3 month old baby to the mothers breasts.
When you buy the produkts you'll be paying factor 3 for similar produkts you can make yourself.
Epoxyfiller for instance , check the shop prices , you can hardly call it cheap right ?
Well , for a fraction of that price you can make it yourself by just adding hardener to the resin and toss in some micro balloons or better yet , aerosil.
First class and top of the shelf filler you got there.

Oh we can go on and on , but I'm not really sure what you have in mind though.

Regards

[yachtingtypes]

Sailbleu – This really helps.

My plan at the moment is to grind the rust areas on the keel and then apply an epoxy primer. Probably Pettit 4700 as it’s cheaper than Interlux.

Depending on the condition of the keel when the boat is hauled in November I will decide if I will do the full job or not. In New York only licensed applicators can remove and apply bottom paint so this needs to be coordinated with the yard.

I agree that for larger quantities “home made” epoxy filler is the way to go but for 1 quart, buying the kit is cheaper.

One last question if I may. I see from your post that you use Sikaflex after applying the first epoxy coat then finishing with three more epoxy coats. Is that correct?

I will post some pictures of the finished work in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks again for your help.

[sailbleu]

Yachtingtypes,

No , no I've used the sikaflex directly to the sanded joint (hull/keel) , straight to the metal or gelcoat depending how deep you sanded the joint area.
Sikaflex 292 (marine) is the real deal .
Awesome stuff , you can use it for a variety of applications , be it sealing , glueing , you name it.Always remove dust and grease before applying , but that goes for many things of course.
It's also paintable , so epoxy sits tight.

Good luck on the job and yes , please post pics , always interesting to see.
I'll also post my endeavour when it's wrapped up.
Kind regards

[Seagem]

Sailbleu,
I have checked out the polyservice.nl web site and saw that the tub of copper powder was the West System 425B copper compound. According West System instructions it recommends this is used under normal AF???
I have also spoken to a boat builder in the North of England (Rob Hewitt of UK Epoxy Resin) who recommended using copper flake supplied by a company called Robert Britton in Rochdale Lancashire (www.colorlord.com) To make matters more confusing this company told me that they also supply copper powders ''Irregular' 'Dendritic' and 'Spherical' The cost of 'Irregular' is £15.40 (18.53 EUR) per kilo and the copper flake £26.34 (31.69 EUR) per kilo plus a delivery charge of at least £25 (30 EUR) as it is considered hazadous. They told me that they have supplied all of these products knowing they were going to be used with epoxy as an AF but did not have any knowledge on how well they performed. I still have plenty of time to consider my options but at the moment I think the recomendations from a very helpful Rob Hewitt at UK Epoxy Resins to use copper flake is the best option.
I am looking forward to your article and will let you know what I do and supply some pictures later in the year (when it warms up a bit!! - snow forcast here this week!!!!)

[sailbleu]

That is very interesting info you given us Seagem.
You know , there is still a bit of a mystery around coppercoat . With regards to homemade coppercoat that is.
I will try and make that clear when I post my essay , but mind you , I'm still learning while I'm at it.
Maybe most people dont realize , almost every AF has copper oxide in it because this is the main ingredient that prevents flora and fauna on the hull.

Last year (spring) I've put up an experiment and coppercoated my rudder to check the effectivness of the homemade coppercoat , in the autum the boat went on the hard and the rudder looked like a nightmare.
Afterwards I understood why , I made 2 major errors .
1- I used a 1 on 1 combination where I should of used 1 on 2 (epoxyresin/copper powder)
2- I didn't smoothly sanded the surface before going in. When you appy the coppercoat the copper oxide is capsuled in by the resin so it has no contact with the water and therefor not being able to play it's activ part.
Rubbing the surface down with a kitchen sponge of some sort gets the surface epoxy off and allows the copper to breath and destroy.
This will have to be done on a regular basis , so they say.

Anyway , if my set up fails , I will still be having 5 coats of epoxy on the hull giving me the garanty osmosis will never keep me awake. I can always rely on selfpolishing AF in the end.
In case of failure the experiment itself will have cost me around 220 Euro on copper oxide , I can live with the thought of that.

Regards

[yachtingtypes]

I spent about 10 minutes with a grinder today to see how big a job this will be. Most of the rust came off very easily and I removed the old caulking as well. Not sure what to do with the "pockmarks" on the leading edge. Its either strip it all off or patch each one.



Leading edge of keel



Hull/Keel joint



Hull/Keel joint at the front of the keel

[Seagem]

Yachtingtypes,
If I were you I would do a proper job and either grind out or use a sanding machine with course sandpaper on the pockmarks until I was back to rust free metal. I would then use a 'cure-rust' type product to prevent further rusting. I would do the same on the rusted area at the keel joint. Seal with a coat of epoxy then fill it with an epoxy filler and sand back until smooth and in shape with the rest of the keel. Sikaflex the hull keel joint then for good measure epoxy the whole lot with pigmented epoxy resin to provide a base for either AF or coppercoat.
Its alot of work but if you 'bodge it' the problem will only re-occur and get worse.
Good luck

Andrew