43 DS batteries going flat

[byo]

Hi folks, Im new to the Jeanneau Yachting scene and yachting in general, I recently purchased a 2000 Jeanneau 43 Deck Saloon, I inadvertently left the battery charger turned off and the fridge turned on for a week, when I tried to start the engine all 4 house batteries and the engine battery was flat. I was under the impression that the engine battery would not discharge with the house batteries, does anyone know if this correct and if so what the problem may be?? Cheers, Bruce.

[rc sail]

Ahoy Bruce,
I would expect your vessel should have a battery selctor switch or dial which would connect or isolate your battery banks-one bank of your 4 house and second bank the engine battery. For all batteries to be flat would suggest both banks of batteries were switched or selected on, or the engine battery was not selected on when you tried to start the engine. Good practice to leave engine battery not selected or off unless starting engine and than to deselect or turn off engine battery when sailing with engine off. All the best with your Jeanneau. Cheers and Good day-RC

[Mistroma]

Could be wrong, but I'd be surprised if Jeanneau didn't fit a split charging system on 43DS roughly similar to the one used on my 42DS.

This should stop the engine battery discharging even if the domestic batteries are run flat. Switching is automatic so no need to manually change between engine and domestic batteries.

Of course, someone might have modified it and removed the diode. Older systems might have introduced a voltage drop that made charging less efficient so encouraging a modification.

Perhaps a 43DS owner can confirm the std. equipment supplied and that would give you an aide where to start looking for a fault.

[byo]

Hi folks, thanks for the info, it appears that I left both the house and engine batteries turned on at the isolating switches, but there seems to be some kind of diode system that all the batteries leads go to, I thought that this may be faulty. I guess it allowes all the batteries to be charged, but is supposed to stop the engine battery going flat??
Cheers, Bruce.

[Zanshin]

I had a 2002 43DS and the two systems were indeed split with a diode and running your house bank flat should not have affected the starter battery. The starter battery is next to one of the house bank ones underneath the aft cabin bed, and perhaps someone wired the starter battery into the house bank (I did that one when my starter battery went bad and I couldn't get a new one immediately). If you charge your batteries up and then (with the engine off) measure voltage on the starter battery at the terminals, then put as much DC load as you can on the house bank and see if your starter bank voltage is affected. It shouldn't be.

[sailbleu]

Hi Brice,

had the same prob over here with my 40Ds some years ago.
Seemed that the diode bridge was internally broken and when starting the engine it drew current from the household bat. I noticed that everytime when the 100 amp fuse blew.
I replaced it with this www.ebay.com/itm/320500867322?item=320500867322&pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&cmd=ViewItem&hash=item4a9f5720fa&vxp=mtr
I'm happy with it.
Make sure you buy an over capacity one.

Regards

[davidknell]

Hi Bruce -

As per others' comments, there's something wrong: that's not supposed to happen.

One further thing to be suspicious of. If the fridge on yours is the same as the one on ours (it's a Frigoboat something-or-other) then it's supposed to cut out when the battery voltage falls below a certain level to prevent the batteries being completely drained. So, if all batteries were completely flat, there might be a problem elsewhere.

--Dave

[rxc]

Rather than buying a replacement diode isolator, you should have a battery combiner that parallels the two banks only when a charging source is present, and isolates them completely when the engine is not running, or the battery charger is not operating. It also eliminates the ~1v voltage drop thru the diode, and ensure that your batteries are properly charged.

[byo]

Thanks everyone for your help, Im sure that I will be able to rectify the problem with info recieved, very helpful
Regards, Bruce

[haven]

I wouldn't be surprised if it is your battery isolator gone bad. Often when an isolator fails the symptom is the alternator will no longer charge the batteries, but they could fail in a way where both banks are shorted together (could be your case). I have a 2007 39i and the factory installed battery isolator is garbage (wouldn't even meet US UL approval)- I'm surprised Jeanneau installed one of that quality. Mine failed last spring. Battery isolators that use diodes should be a thing of the past (prone to frequent failure, voltage drops cause slow charging, etc.). I replaced my isolator with a ProMariner ProIsoCharge unit... this is a digitally controlled isolator with NO DIODES and ZERO voltage loss (waterproof, built like a tank, 5 yr warranty, lots of cool features, probably won't screw up in the middle of a trip, etc.) . Defender has a good selection of ProIsoCharege units (West Marine has limited selection). Buy a two or three bank unit depending upon how your boat was originally set up from Jeanneau (mine was three bank due to extra bank for bow thruster). Go up one or two sizes in the amp rating to be conservative (they come in 120amp, 180amp, etc). I installed a 180amp three bank unit and also upgraded the alternator to a 110am Balmar with a smart regulator and replaced all batteries with Lifeline AGMs. I'm a happy boy now!!

I just completed two separate 72 hour offshore passages and hammered the crap out of the batteries with autopilot in rough seas, chart plotter on 24 hours per day, radar on all night, etc. Solid and reliable. Very highly recommended.

[sailbleu]

Nov 7, 2011 22:42:26 GMT rxc said:

Rather than buying a replacement diode isolator, you should have a battery combiner that parallels the two banks only when a charging source is present, and isolates them completely when the engine is not running, or the battery charger is not operating. It also eliminates the ~1v voltage drop thru the diode, and ensure that your batteries are properly charged.

Never charge two diffferent bats in a parallel combination.
If one of them is rather bad , the other one will soon follow suit.

Regards

[haven]

Nov 24, 2011 5:48:23 GMT sailbleu said:

Nov 7, 2011 22:42:26 GMT rxc said:

Rather than buying a replacement diode isolator, you should have a battery combiner that parallels the two banks only when a charging source is present, and isolates them completely when the engine is not running, or the battery charger is not operating. It also eliminates the ~1v voltage drop thru the diode, and ensure that your batteries are properly charged.

Never charge two diffferent bats in a parallel combination.
If one of them is rather bad , the other one will soon follow suit.

Regards

I agree with this, and the ProIsoCharge "sort of" addresses the problem - it gives priority to the lowest bank, completely isolating it. So if one bank is very low it will isolate it from the others and just charge it, hence it won't kill the others. Pretty good for an automatic solution that is almost plug and play with the factory setup! (not quite plug and play however, as the terminals on the larger proisocharge units have much bigger terminals than the factory isolator, so you will need to change the lugs or drill them out).

Just for the record, I am not affiliated with ProMariner in any way at all, other than as a very happy customer with this product. If they were designing an ultimate isolator, i would love to be able to push a button and manually select the bank as an option, and for it to have some type of configerable current limiting on a per-bank basis.

[rxc]

Nov 24, 2011 5:48:23 GMT sailbleu said:

Nov 7, 2011 22:42:26 GMT rxc said:

Rather than buying a replacement diode isolator, you should have a battery combiner that parallels the two banks only when a charging source is present, and isolates them completely when the engine is not running, or the battery charger is not operating. It also eliminates the ~1v voltage drop thru the diode, and ensure that your batteries are properly charged.

>Never charge two diffferent bats in a parallel combination.
>If one of them is rather bad , the other one will soon follow suit.



I am going to have to agree and disagree with you on this. I agree that it is not a good idea to mix battery types, or batteries of a different age, or even different sizes, if you are going to operate/discharge them in parallel. However, charging the same chemistry type (i.e., wet cell, AGW) in parallel is fine. The diode isolators that Jeanneau installs do exactly this.

The difference is that a battery combiner senses the charging voltage, and only parallels the batteries when the charger is running, and voltage is above about 13v (if I recall correctly). Below that voltage, the batteries are separated form one another, so that they only supply the loads they are meant to supply. They do not charge/discharge one another.

In addition, the diodes of an isolator reduce the voltage at the batteries by about 1v, which ensure that you never fully charge your batteries unless you use a smart charger with a sensor on the batteries themselves, and then, you are operating your alternator(if it is possible) at a higher voltage than intended.

Now, charging batteries of different age _can_ be problematic, in some unusual circumstances, such as when one battery is really low on water, but if you only have one charging source (like an engine alternator), there is no alternative to charging them in parallel. If you just use a multiple output shorepower charger, you can do it, but most people like to be able to charge with the main engine, without having to hang another alternator on the engine.


Regards

[sailbleu]

There is a way to eliminate the 0,7 volts drop over the bat isolator (diode bridge) , by using a regulator (on the alternator) which has a compensation .
That means you connect the compensation wire to the battery and the regulator will sense the voltage drop over the isolator and will increase the output voltage? Works just fine , the bats are always charge up to 14,2 volts. Completely full but also venting oixigen and hydrogen. Keep an eye on the waterlevel and make sure ther's enough ventilation.

BUT !!!!!

Let me tell you a story about battery isolators (diode bridge) .
I'm running my third already.
This time I replaced it with an oversized .
The previous one almost ruined my engines electrical system. It toasted the engineroom ventilator , and I was lucky it was just that.

Let me explane.
Because the isolator was a bit to small it had to sustain severe currents when I was making water with my watermaker , using a washing machine and using all the navigation instruments while sailing (on engine) at the same time.
Therefor one of the diodes inside burned up. Of course it was the one that supplied the household battery.
The compensation diode from the regulator was fixed to that household battery.
The bat isolator did not supply current anymore to that battery , and it was draining due to watermaker, washing machine and so on. The compensation sensed a low voltage and commanded the alternator to increase the voltage.
That voltage was entirely pumped into the start (engine)battery. Resulting in blowing the ventilator and gassing off the battery.
If my engine would of have electronics they would all be gone no doubt.

I accidentily noticed the household voltage drop on the meter inside and was wondering why this phenomena occured. It took me a while before I found out the diode was gone and the engine voltage was off the scale.
I now have a voltage indicator on the helm.
www.tuning-rdi.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p409_raid-hp-Night-Flight-Digital-water-temperature-gauge.html
It's normally a temp gauge , but has an integrated voltage indicator .
I use it also to monitor my engine temp , engineroom temp and cooling water outlet.(using a selection switch)
4 in one so to speak.


After replacing the isolator I decided to just fix the compensation wire to the main lead and accept the 13,5 volts on my batteries willingly.
In that aspect a parallel battery setup might be a good idea.
But I think (hope) I've neutralized the danger of a overvoltage by installing an oversized isolator and also by reconnecting the compensation.

So beware of battery isolators. They can blowup your entire system.

Regards

[haven]

Nov 26, 2011 7:01:28 GMT sailbleu said:

There is a way to eliminate the 0,7 volts drop over the bat isolator (diode bridge) , by using a regulator (on the alternator) which has a compensation .
That means you connect the compensation wire to the battery and the regulator will sense the voltage drop over the isolator and will increase the output voltage? Works just fine , the bats are always charge up to 14,2 volts. Completely full but also venting oixigen and hydrogen. Keep an eye on the waterlevel and make sure ther's enough ventilation.

BUT !!!!!

Let me tell you a story about battery isolators (diode bridge) .
I'm running my third already.
This time I replaced it with an oversized .
The previous one almost ruined my engines electrical system. It toasted the engineroom ventilator , and I was lucky it was just that.

Let me explane.
Because the isolator was a bit to small it had to sustain severe currents when I was making water with my watermaker , using a washing machine and using all the navigation instruments while sailing (on engine) at the same time.
Therefor one of the diodes inside burned up. Of course it was the one that supplied the household battery.
The compensation diode from the regulator was fixed to that household battery.
The bat isolator did not supply current anymore to that battery , and it was draining due to watermaker, washing machine and so on. The compensation sensed a low voltage and commanded the alternator to increase the voltage.
That voltage was entirely pumped into the start (engine)battery. Resulting in blowing the ventilator and gassing off the battery.
If my engine would of have electronics they would all be gone no doubt.

I accidentily noticed the household voltage drop on the meter inside and was wondering why this phenomena occured. It took me a while before I found out the diode was gone and the engine voltage was off the scale.
I now have a voltage indicator on the helm.
www.tuning-rdi.de/product_info.php?language=en&info=p409_raid-hp-Night-Flight-Digital-water-temperature-gauge.html
It's normally a temp gauge , but has an integrated voltage indicator .
I use it also to monitor my engine temp , engineroom temp and cooling water outlet.(using a selection switch)
4 in one so to speak.


After replacing the isolator I decided to just fix the compensation wire to the main lead and accept the 13,5 volts on my batteries willingly.
In that aspect a parallel battery setup might be a good idea.
But I think (hope) I've neutralized the danger of a overvoltage by installing an oversized isolator and also by reconnecting the compensation.

So beware of battery isolators. They can blowup your entire system.

Regards

The above story isn't unusual, rather it is totally typical of what happens when an isolator fails. And they ALWAYS FAIL in my experience. To anyone reading this, if your boat has a diode based battery isolator, replace it NOW before it goes bad. Get a good battery combiner like the ProMariner ProIsoCharge unit or something made by Balmar, etc (something without diodes!). Also, if you take the time to install a smart regulator on the altenator, like a Balmar ARS-5, the regulator would sense the over-voltage situation (over 15v if memory serves) and prevent the situation where a single failure like a diode causes a voltage spike that wipes out all of your electronics, etc.

In terms of cost, I bought a ProMariner ProIsoChage digitally controlled battery combiner, and a kit with a 110amp Balmar altenator and ARS-5 regulator from Defender and the total cost was under $1,000 U.S. My real world charge rate into the house bank went from 28 to 32 amps with the factory setup to 80 amps with this setup (at a 1200 to 1400 RPM fast idle), so litterally 1 hour of engine running is equal to charging for 3 hours with the old setup. Life at anchor/mooring without shore power is vastly better!!! You could install the whole thing in a day.