SO 42.1 Rudder Removal

[bsafreed]

If anyone has info on the proceedures to remove the rudder please let me know.
I do understand this can be done without out the need to haul out to the yard.
Thanks in advance. Brian

[Zanshin]

(I'm bummed, I had written a long answer and a network hiccup swallowed it)

I'll take a stab at this, since nobody else has answered. I dropped the rudder on my 43DS and my current boat is similarly configured. The rudder stock goes into the hull pretty much exactly at the waterline on both boat. Is it the same with your boat?

[bsafreed]

Zanshin, I opened up the aft cabin panels to access the quadrant area. Looks like there are a few bolts to remove. I'm curiuos if you did your replacement in the yard or in the water? I'm thing to keep her in the water but not sure what kind of problems I'll run into on the re-installation as I don't see any means to hoist the rudder post. I may have a machinist drill the top of the post so I can attach an eyebolt.
Thanks form the response. I've searched around the other forums and came up empty.
Brian

[Zanshin]

I did the work in the yard. In my case, all that was left of the old rudder was about 2 feet of steel stock, it had sheared right at the hull join and I dropped the old shaft and installed the new while the boat was on the hard. I can't remember the details, but there wasn't so much work involved in detaching the stock.
Given a choice I'd prefer doing it on the hard. If you need to hire a diver or someone to help you, then that would be a significant cost that could go towards hauling. And you can do other PM type work while the boat is out of the water and if anything goes awry your boat won't sink on the hard

[bottleinamessage]

It's very heavy and will not float. Do it in a yard is my advice.

[bsafreed]

Bottleinamessage, how heavy is the rudder as the rudder post is about 4' in length and the rest is foam and fiberglass?
I plan to drop it in shallow water. Then tap&tread the top of the post for a eye bolt to help with the reinstall after repairs are done. Issue we have in St. Croix USVI is only one place to haul-out and they control the work. Thanks for the response. Brian

[MartyB]

For what it is worth, You will need to be is shallow or deep depending upon which term you need to drop it, At least I would guess 6-8' or 2.5-3M or so. As you will have the rudder depth, plus the shaft depth you will need to go down below the bottom of the boat. I would want to be in at least 8' for my 30' boat. I do not remember how deep my rudder is, but 3-4', total draft is 5.5, add in shaft at 3-4' above......... So as one says, shallow enough to dive the rudder if it falls to the bottom, yet deep enough to drop it. IIRC, when my rudder was dropped to do a cutles bearing, the yard had to lift the boat of the supports to drop the rudder.

I do feel it should be doable in the water worst case, at least my boat the shaft top is above the WL, so water should not ingress and sink the boat per say with out the rudder.

marty

[Zanshin]

While my 43DS rudder was quite heavy, it had neutral boyancy as I saw it float away from the boat when it broke.

[bsafreed]

Marty/Zanshin, thank you both for the response. I believe 3 to 3.5 meters of depth will work. The foam will help aid the buoyancy and I may need to fix a weight to the bottom of the rudder to force the end down upon the reinstall. It would be great if I could find out why Jeanneau installed a rudder that is longer than the keel? Brian

[MartyB]

Brian.

A swag on the keel vs rudder depth.

There is probably "ONE" rudder option for your boat, be it the shoal, std or Deep Performance keel. Some of the models, Malcolms SO39 has a shoal keel, but what he noticed, is they literally CUT the bottom of the rudder off just shy of the shoal keel depth. Other than the potential to drag the rudder before the keel, you probably have better steering than one with a cut off shallower rudder section. This is one of the other reasons, I can not see buying a shoal draft rig. Then again, where I sail, it almost always showing over 600' on the depth guage! Generally speaking, in Puget Sound where I am, shoals are not a real issue!

marty

[MalcolmP]

Jan 15, 2011 5:33:49 GMT MartyB said:

Brian.

A swag on the keel vs rudder depth.

There is probably "ONE" rudder option for your boat, be it the shoal, std or Deep Performance keel. Some of the models, Malcolms SO39 has a shoal keel, but what he noticed, is they literally CUT the bottom of the rudder off just shy of the shoal keel depth. Other than the potential to drag the rudder before the keel, you probably have better steering than one with a cut off shallower rudder section. This is one of the other reasons, I can not see buying a shoal draft rig. Then again, where I sail, it almost always showing over 600' on the depth guage! Generally speaking, in Puget Sound where I am, shoals are not a real issue!

marty

Marty is right (as so often) have you checked if you have the standard keel or shallow draft option? If you do have a shallow draft SO42.1 it is possible that a previous owner had a new rudder fitted which would be the standard one out of the mould, - hence the extra depth

Malcolm

[bsafreed]

Malcolm and Marty, I attached an image of my SO42.1. The keel vs rudder depth may not be obvious from this image but I recall the surveyor mentioning the rudder was about 6" longer.

I'm sure one of you can tell me the type of keel installed as I would assume shallow.

In respect to the repair vs length my main concern would be her performance and overall maneuverability. I have noticed she rounds up in to the wind during gusts. Thanks again for the responses. Brian

[MalcolmP]

Hi Brian

From the image, it does look like a shallow draft - IE 1.5 m v 1.9m for the deep draft - you should be able to measure this easily to confirm. I would suspect that the rudder has been changed in the past and you have the standard deeper rudder fitted. In the original, if like many other shallow draft jeanneaus, the tip of about 6" would have been removed and faired off.

I think if you did this almost certainly your rounding up would be worse, but that needs to be considered in regard of the type of cruising that you do. If there is any risk of grounding, even in mud your rudder will take the full impact, if you only sail in deep water with no intention of even occasional grounding then your may consider the extra bite that the deeper rudder has is worth it

There are quite a few threads on this and other forums about rounding up, which is common to most full beam modern designs. Sai shape, size and control are best ways to reduce but not eliminate this - it is a penalty of the large aft quarters which are great for both accommodation and off the wind sailing

It was good that Daniel responded, shame that he could dig out the archive though

cheers

Malcolm

[MartyB]

As Malcolm mentioned, you have a shoal keel. You have less draft than my 30'r!

The shoal draft is part of the rounding up issue, which other than sail trim there is not a lot you can do. Leaving the rudder deeper if you can, doe help. BUT, as Malcolm mentioned, this can make it so the rudder hits first, not the keel! more potential damage in a grounding. BUT< if you cruise here in Puget Sound and north to BC, the chances of you grounding are pretty thin. I am not saying impossible, but compared to other countries and areas one can travel, it is not as likely.

Marty

[bsafreed]

Marty,
Thank you for the "shoal keel" verification.

I'm in Puerto Rico and will be sailing mainly in the local Islands where grounding is an issue. I suspect this was the preceding event for the rudder break while in the open sea.

I'm in process of contacting a naval architect to see if there is a possible redesign to the rudder.

I suspect the surface area of the rudder can be adjusted by adding length to the trailing edge of the rudder. I've also requested advice on sails and settings. I need to purchase a new Genoa and soon a main as both are original.

Thank you, Brian

[MartyB]

If you have original sails, this can lead to some rounding up as the sails get blown out, or stretched. I've been using some laminates lately, they seem to work/last longer before blowing out, but once they do. oh boy!

You might look into Ullmans CAL sails, a panel sewn scrim laminate, same cost as a GOOD dacron sail! but a wider wind range to work with, less stretch etc.

Talking to a NA to see what you could/could not do to the rudder to make it better able to handle things, could be worth the cost etc. I would try to go with a shorter rudder considering where you are sailing. WHere I am, probably not an issue.

Marty

[bsafreed]

I've decided, after careful thought and the fact that I'm moored in a place with murky water and mud bottom, to not drop the ruder while in the water. I'm in need to take her out the water soon for painting and thru hull valve replacements.

Questions that were raised during the analysis and planning are: 1) Bushings and bearings. If these can be replaced and are available does anyone know a resource to find these? 2) There is one through bolt holding the rudder post in position. Once this is removed, what else needs to be undone to drop the rudder? Assume the quadrant bolts but I cannot tell if the rudder post runs through a sleeve that is attached to the quadrant. Thank you in advance....Brian

[moleman58]

Brian
www.jeanneauparts.com have the information (and the parts)
They are in that well known seafairing nation Austria!

I have attached the info on the SO42.1 from their site (it takes a while to load)

hope this helps

Mark

Attachments:

[bsafreed]

Mark, again. Thank you. I've sent an e-mail to the contacts at Jeanneauparts. I hope they respond. It only makes sense to replace the seals and bearings once I drop the rudder.
Best regards, Brian

[bsafreed]

Update to the removal.

I made the decision to remove the rudder while in the water. This was done primarily to save on the cost to keep her on the hard while the rudder was being repaired (days to fix (?) times XX$ dollars per day waiting as I would have had to ship the rudder from the haul-out location for repair).

Water inflow was not a concern as the water line is at least 12" below the fiberglass riser (I don't know the technical name). See Image Rudder Quadrant - Link posted below.

Steps to remove the rudder were straight forward:
1) Remove the rudder stop bracket
2) Unbolt the two cables (see image rudder quadrant)
3) Unbolt the quadrant from rudder post.
4) While in the water to catch the rudder, a second person unbolted the through-bolt that holds the rudder post from dropping past the top sleeve and bearing. What was noticeable during this step was that there was little pressure on the through-bolt? Ok, the rudder, and what was remaining, creates a positive buoyancy.

Now, what was of concern before we finally released the through-bolt was the rudder stock key. This is a metal bar pressed into the rudder stock that protrudes out and locks into the quadrant bracket. The key is the main component that prevents slippage when rotating the rudder. As this was my first time attempting the rudder removal I tried to remove the key which was impossible with basic hand tools. Amazingly, we were able to drop the rudder with the key in place as I was not sure if the key would catch on the lower bearing and seals. It did not. The rudder dropped with ease. While I was in the water I grabbed the rudder post and with help was able to lift it out of the water with no problem as the rudder floated. (I did have standby dive gear in case it dropped to the muddy bottom 10' below). Given that 1/3 of the rudder was broken off, it still had positive buoyancy.

Additional images show the Rudder Stock and Key, Backside of the rudder where a biological ecosystem developed....

dl.dropbox.com/u/16242392/Rudder%20Removal%20Images.doc

I'll send updated on the rudder repair and installation....
Brian

[bsafreed]

All,

After a few months my rudder has been re-fabricate and reinstalled. The reinstallation was not difficult as the rudder is buoyant and will not sink in the water. The challenge to overcome is the the post will sink down and the rudder will float up. This issue was solved simply by using a thin cord tied though the top of the rudder post. Then running the cord through the hull into the quadrant area. To reinsert the rudder in to the hull I had to wrap my legs around the rudder and with my feet push the bottom of rudder down while my friend pulled the rudder post upward and into the hull. Once the post is seated just a few inches inside the hull remove the line. The rudder will insert easily. Installing the quadrant and cables was the most difficult of this whole process. Check the cables on all rollers before final connections.

Redesign of the rudder was a concern but having the upper part of the rudder shell and most of the foam core remaining helped in the reshaping. The concern for us was the reduction in its length. The original rudder was 6" longer than the keel. Why? I have no idea. Now the rudder is 9" shallower than the keel. Upon sea trials in 20Kts of wind with main and genoa out she performed well. I still have weather helm but furling in the main 20% from full helped reduce this during gusts.

For those of you who may be interested in how a rudder would break without it running aground is as follow.

The breakage was due to the delimitation of the rudder skin from the foam. How could this happen? When the break occurred I was in mod-sea with 20kts winds on broad reach with both sheets out full. Kaian has a lot of weather helm, and I will assume this is comes from the shoal draft ball-fin-keel, and that the 17yo main sheet is stretched. On one of the swells and gusts she nosed into the wind and the helm was heavy. I'm sure at this moment the fiberglass shell, below the rudder post, reached its critical point of failure.

Our theory is this. Jeanneau molded and pressed to the two outer rudder skins together. (Perhaps they injected the foam after creating the rudder shell). During this process a seam is formed all around then sanded down on the leading and trailing edges of the rudder. However, on the top of the rudder the seam was not taken out. It was on this seam where I found a 1/2 inch long by 1/8 wide gap. Over years the salt water leaked in and soaked in the foam. This was evident by the rust stains on the rudder post and also on the stainless steel plate that protrudes horizontally from the post.

I hope to have images of the refabrication posted soon.

Brian