360 docking

[johnnyboy]

I am considering buying a new 42 ds with the 360 docking system. I'm a little nervous as it a new system. I'm concerned about glitches and problems with it and how it will be serviced here in the us (east coast).

any thoughts??

[MalcolmP]

Oct 19, 2010 12:22:21 GMT johnnyboy said:

I am considering buying a new 42 ds with the 360 docking system. I'm a little nervous as it a new system. I'm concerned about glitches and problems with it and how it will be serviced here in the us (east coast).

any thoughts??

Much of the equipment in the system are already standard parts, so at least have been tried and tested independently, eg the Bowthruster and the autopilot and the Zeus ZF gearbox has been tested on much larger boats



so the 360 degree version should also be robust

tinyurl.com/33xcfn6

ZF also make mega-wind turbine gearboxes, so a little sailboat unit should be a doodle

Do keep the board informed on your choice

cheers

Malcolm

[ladauphine]

We have owned a 42ds since early 2007. The first item we replaced was the prop. We installed a Max Prop and it works great. I think the new 360 system will become an industry standard in a few years but also a lot more money than a Max Prop. We moor in a marina with tight waterways and crosswinds. The prop and personal experience with your boat will save you a lot of money on this size boat. Did I mention we usually sail with only my wife and me. Use your money for new sails since the stock sails really suck.

[grantgoulding]

The 360 system sounds rather good however the 42ds as with many other boats will, in a blow, struggle to go sideways. We have the bow thruster and that's great until we have gusts above 20kts in which case it will not move the boat as you would want. I am not sure if the 360 system will make us all lazy (just like having the thruster has) or allow us to become unable to dock a boat using skills we learn from doing it the hard way! I tend to think it's great on huge vessels but on a 42ft I wonder if things are just getting too complex and we are in danger of losing sight of what we go sailing for.....

[riversideyachts]

twenty knot breeze, the 360 will still do the job. I can't wait to get next stock boat with the 360

[gdefalco]

I am taking delivery of a new 44i in March with the 360 system (east coast, US). After many years of wrestling with a 35 and 41 footer with long keels and skeg hung rudders, I'm just tired of the docking jitters. I have never had a major mishap around the dock, even in high winds, but the heart palpitations that come with every marina arrival and departure just take away from the fun.

As with any new technology there may be some bugs, but I'm willing to take the risk that the tradeoff will be worth it. More to come this summer after a few months of real world testing...

GFD

[westwind]

We have a 50DS with 360 docking on order and we are expecting spring delivery. We were in France at the factory last week and they are already shipping boats with the new system. They claim they have not had problems with the testing of the production system. I was told that 360 is only available with the 75 hp Yanmar on boats 44 or longer but maybe this has changed.

[yachtsea]

I was at the Miami boat show and had a test run on the new 360.
Very interesting but will take some time to get use to it. I do not like the idea that the auto pilot locks the helm. Also they said the bow thruster will still over heat and shut down if used too long. I wasn't sold yet on 360. Prop walk is your friend and less money lol

[tedp]

I'll give you that docking in a high wind isn't always easy, but what happened to using an old-fashioned spring line and fenders? And indeed, prop walk is your friend.

[gdefalco]

Yeah, I hear you on the prop walk & spring lines, but why reject technological advances out of hand just because 'the old way works'. Maybe the new way will work better? I grew up with hank on jibs, dead reckoning, and no radar. Just because I know how to sail like that does not mean I want to give up my roller furler or GPS/Radar chartplotter. Time will tell, I suppose.

[Zanshin]

I have to agree with gdefalco; using new technology such as the 360 docking doesn't mean that one immediately forgets how to use spring lines and prop walk to one's advantage. I see the downside that the system now gets more points-of-failure; but I'm sure that the engineers have built in a fail-safe, i.e. if the electrics fail one can still move the saildrive to point straight aft manually so that the boat is functional.

[tedp]

Well actually I do see an advantage in a 360 system - if you have a dual rudder boat that doesn't have the rudder(s) in the prop wash. If you're dead in the water you don't have control if you have an ordinary prop sitting between the rudders. When I had an 18ft daysailer I used to turn the transom-mounted outboard to assist when docking, but since I sail inboard-fitted boats I'm happy enough with propeller and rudder.

There is a parallel example in commercial shipping. For years harbour tugboats have been using their equivalent of a 360 system for improved manoeuvrability. So if you're happier with a 360 system in your boat and you don't mind the expense, by all means do so. Docking a 50-footer probably is no joke, but on my 32-foot boat I can still manage without one, and I like the challenge (most of the time, that is!).

[gdefalco]

Well I promised to get back to everyone with a report on the 360 docking system once my new boat arrived, so here it is.

Yesterday was my first day on the boat (44i) in the water. Wind was blowing 10 knots steady inside the marina. With only 5 minutes of 'how to' on the proper start up procedures from the dealer, I was able to easily slide laterally out from a side-to dock situation, against the wind - and using only small bursts of thrust. Then fueled up and executed an effortless 180 degree turn in a deadend fairway, and later another 180 turn in a tight fairway followed by a lateral move right back into the same spot on the side-to dock.

All I can say is WOW. Even though I am not used to this system, I can tell it is a gamechanger. Tight quarters marina situations are just not going to be a big deal any more.

First impressions/notes:

- This system is not meant for driving around. I found that as soon as I was clear of obstructions it was easier to steer the boat with the wheel rather than the joystick.
- The pivot maneuver is fantastic - it literally spins the boat on its keel (no bow thruster - just the pivoting sail drive).
- There is no reverse gear, the drive spins 180 to reverse thrust. This takes a second, so will require me to adjust my timing on regular, wheel steered approaches.
- Maneuvers like entering a slip bow on might still be just as easy using the wheel, as opposed to the joystick.
- All of the thrusting maneuvers are variable speed, i.e. the more you move/rotate the joystick, the faster the maneuver takes place. This gives much more control than I had anticipated. I expected the sort of on/off choice of a typical bowthruster.
- Power consumption is a bit of an unkown, but is a concern to me until I have more experience with it.

Bottom line is you still need to know how to handle a boat to effectively use this system, but if you do, this is very simple to use and can really take the stress out of tight quarters maneuvering. I kept thinking to myself as I was trying different things - even if I screw up and put the boat in a bad position - I can engage the 360, get myself out of trouble, and try again. No boat hooks, no yelling, no scrapes on the hull. Pretty neat.

p.s. there is a back-up 'workaround' in case the electronics crash. ZF supplies a cable with the drive unit, that when connected from point A to B (in the engine room) bypasses the drive brain, locks the drive facing aft, and gives you forward gear. So I (hopefully) can get home in the event of a failure.

[j57]

Congrats and many thx for the very informative report on the 360! I'm considering a Jeanneau with 360 and curious as to why there is such concern about electronic failures...is there something unique about the 360 system which might cause electronic failures, or is it just the amount of power required to operate?

Another question: In your travels re the 360 did you encounter those who say long distance cruisers would prefer shaft drive because it is more durable, even though sail drive has less drag?

[gdefalco]

j57

I actually was not all that concerned about electronics failure until after I had placed my order and was reading other's (sailing magazines) test reviews. They all wondered 'what if the electronics fail?', so I started wondering too. I would not think the system is any more or less prone to electronic failure than other boat systems, but the fact that it concerns a means of propulsion it is more important than, say, the fridge or GPS.

Not sure about shaft vs. saildrive for long distance cruising. I had shafts on past two boats and they were fine (one fixed prop, one folding). The ZF 360 unit ships with a fixed prop. We zipped along at 9.5 knots on a broad reach in 17 knots true on Sunday during the test sail, so based on that I'm not too worried about drag. If I were to race I would inquire with ZF about a folding prop switchout. Hope that helps!

[gdefalco]

j57

Oh, one other thing. I had the yard install a galvanic isolator on the shore power circuit to prevent galvanic corrosion of the saildrive unit caused by stray current when hooked up at the dock. Also do pay attention to using the correct kind of bottom paint for the saildrive unit (Pettit and Interlux both make one specifically for aluminum). Copper based bottom paint will cause problems with the aluminum drive units.

There was a very good article in Cruising World two months ago about saildrives and how to combat corrosion.

[j57]

Thx...I hope I have as much good fortune as you...maybe I should settle on a 44!!

[j57]

Very helpful thx. Where do you hail from and do you live aboard?

I'd be very interested to know how you decided on a Jeanneau because there are so many d**n choices out there...thus far I'm headed for a Jeanneau too!

[gdefalco]

Keep her in Newport, RI. Don't live aboard, but try to sail as much as possible.

We (my family and I) looked at Beneteau, Catalina, Hanse, and Jeanneau pretty seriously before deciding upon the 44i. For us it came down to the fact that we liked the boat better than all the others (including other Jeanneaus) we went aboard, and liked the dealer we worked with immensely as well.

This is the first new boat we've owned, and the first 'production' boat. Our first two boats were both 1980's vintage Bristols. Based on what I have seen in terms of finish quality, systems, and advice from longtime boat yard service folks, the Jeanneaus have higher quality than most other production builders. My rigger says the French built Jeanneaus are are better than the few built in SC, for what it's worth.

The electrical work, plumbing, through-hulls and glasswork are very good to my eye, and just as beefy as the stuff in my old boats, which both served me well. Of course, the two year warranty is nice as well, and longer than what most other builders offer.

Best of luck with your search. If you are in New England look up Bluenose Yacht Sales in Newport (office in Maine as well). Glenn Walters is the owner and sold us our boat. He was easy to work with and delivered ahead of schedule.

[j57]

I'm going thru the same process and agree with all you say...dealing with two very knowledgeable brokers at Cruising Yachts in San Diego and Marina del Rey. I had a 57 under contract but decided I want 360 docking which wasn't available on 57 so canceled that contract. Jeanneau is in process of making 360 available on 53 and 57 and I'm told I can test that in France in June...but now not sure I need a boat that big, but I sure do like the dinghy garage! If you have a dinghy where do you stow it on the 44?

[gdefalco]

I have a ten foot high pressure air-floor inflatable that I keep rolled up and stored in the starboard lazarette (under the starboard helm seat). Also opted for a Torqeedo electric outboard that also stores in the locker.

Frees up the transom (no davits, lift, or motor mount) and keeps me from having to keep the gasoline somewhere. Only downside is having to lift the dinghy out of the locker and inflate it, but I'll do that at the beginnning of each trip then tow it for the duration, so it's only once per weekend.

I went aboard the 57 in Annapolis. The dinghy garage is pretty cool...

[j57]

All makes sense. Not sure I need all that comes with a 57' boat and wish smaller boats had garages! Thx.

[esmith]

We have a couple of boats in service now with this. We also have a 45DS in stock with the system available for any serious buyer to try.
There have been a couple of minor glitches--but primarily related to installation (Calking a drain hole, causing water retention, etc.) These are now addressed and all past instances corrected.

As gdefalco says, this is not meant for normal navigation. Excessive use of the bow thruster will cause excessive battery drain. Jeanneau is considering dedicated batteries for the Bow Thruster which should be the ultimate fix--BYA is offering this as a suggested option until Jeanneau makes it standard.

More and more, we are seeing this as a "must have" on future orders and it's bound to be a real plus at resale time. The technology is proven on power boats and ships, and it was only a matter of time until it would come to the sailing community. The parts are generally off the shelf so no big deal for service (as webcrew mentioned).

Thinking of getting a new Jeanneau with this system--come try it out in Annapolis.

By the way, all Jeanneau owners are welcome to join us for our Chesapeake Jeanneau rendezvous in July. Call Kris 410-263-2311

[j57]

thx esmith...do you have any info as to when 360 might be available on J53 / J57?