Sun Odyssey 409 - Loose Rudder

[klobuczek]

My Jeanneau Sun Odyssey has a loose rudder post, see the video. I have already 3 different bearings or parts: 16, 18, and 19 see the steering system schema. However my shipyard in Alaska is telling me if the replace all the 3 parts the play will still be there. Has anyone an idea what needs to be done to fix the problem?

Attachment Deleted

[ohana]

There is a discussion re rudder bearings for these series of SO boats on the Jeanneau Facebook  pages - worth a look

its on the SO 409 419 439 449 sub group

[rick63]

I have the same issue on my 409. I have about the same amount of play on my rudder shaft. I have had the boat 10 years and I noticed it about year 3. I check it every year and it never gets any worse so as of yet I have not changed any of the bearings. Will continue to monitor each year

[klobuczek]

I actually did change 3 parts. 2 bearings and a bronze ring. It didn't make any difference. The old bearings did not look worn at all. 

Afterwards talked to a dealer in France. He told me it is normal and poses no problem as the rudder is well balanced. If you really wanted to remove the play you would need a custom made bearing with precise measurements. 

[ohana]

I replaced the rudder bearings while the boat was in the slings on lift out a few weeks ago. There was a fair amount of movement by the end of this past sesason. THe new bearings were supplied by Jeanneau. The movement has now all gone, which is great.

[loredo]

I don't know how these SO 409 419 439 449 rudders and bearings are build. What I do know though is that no rudder should have play / lateral movement.  Are these "bearings" actual bearings or bronze rings with low friction stuff applied to them?  My JY 57 had also play and the problem was the installation of those bronze rings during commissioning. 

[ohana]

They are more bushes than bearings. I believe most rudder stocks use this approach, either with low friction plastics or as you say bronze materials with low friction plastic liners. They bear on steel rings which are fitted onto the rudder composite stock.

[loredo]

OK, so then the system is at least very similar to the 57. When I had problems with my boat, after long pressing I was able to get complete installation instructions from Jeanneau. I've got several documents from Jeanneau. One is in PDF format (287kb) and explains in a nutshell how to do it right. Only problem, I have no clue if this stuff is copyrighted and if I can publish it here.

Malcolm???

The problem with the play / moving rudder is due to the installation during commisioning done wrong.  In the various documents from Jeanneau they mention different types of "glues" to use to install the bearings in the hull.  The latest one then mentiones methacrylate glue (it's a resin I think) to be used.  That's what I did and it solved the problem. My bearings were first installed using silicone!  That didn't work out!!!

With the moving rudder the autopilot does even have a hard time to keep an accurate course.  (That's how I got aware about my

rudder problem.) Scenario, go out on a day with flat calm sea. From a couple miles from the coast, pic out a building and try motor holding a steady course on it. With the play in the rudder, no joy. The autopilot would allow the boat to wander right-left-right of the building by 2-3 degrees before correcting course. At first I investigated the autopilot. Long story short, with the fixed rudder the autopiolot keeps the bow of the boat pointed directly onto the building. 

One last thing, I had ordered new bearings from Jeanneau before haul out and tearing down the rudder.  Turned out I could have used the old bearings. There was no reason to replace them. Just glue them back in using a very strong bonding "glue", done deal.  

[ohana]

Thanks Loredo. I too asked Jeanneau for info re the bearings and how to replace them, but all I could get was some outline schematics from teh UK agent. I would be very interested to see the info you have managed to get - perhaps you could share this via a PM?

The method of installation as you describe is the same for my 439. I had help from my local yard shipwright who has done many of these before, especially for Beneteau and Jeanneau who use the same designs (not surprising as they are both part of Group Beneteau). So they knew exactly what to look for and how to bond the new ones back in. 

[MalcolmP]

Nov 30, 2023 10:07:18 GMT loredo said:

OK, so then the system is at least very similar to the 57. When I had problems with my boat, after long pressing I was able to get complete installation instructions from Jeanneau. I've got several documents from Jeanneau. One is in PDF format (287kb) and explains in a nutshell how to do it right. Only problem, I have no clue if this stuff is copyrighted and if I can publish it here.

Malcolm???

The problem with the play / moving rudder is due to the installation during commisioning done wrong.  In the various documents from Jeanneau they mention different types of "glues" to use to install the bearings in the hull.  The latest one then mentiones methacrylate glue (it's a resin I think) to be used.  That's what I did and it solved the problem. My bearings were first installed using silicone!  That didn't work out!!!

With the moving rudder the autopilot does even have a hard time to keep an accurate course.  (That's how I got aware about my

rudder problem.) Scenario, go out on a day with flat calm sea. From a couple miles from the coast, pic out a building and try motor holding a steady course on it. With the play in the rudder, no joy. The autopilot would allow the boat to wander right-left-right of the building by 2-3 degrees before correcting course. At first I investigated the autopilot. Long story short, with the fixed rudder the autopiolot keeps the bow of the boat pointed directly onto the building. 

One last thing, I had ordered new bearings from Jeanneau before haul out and tearing down the rudder.  Turned out I could have used the old bearings. There was no reason to replace them. Just glue them back in using a very strong bonding "glue", done deal.  

Hi Loredo. These documents will be of great interest I am sure. I have just replied to your message. Jeanneau are very relaxed about me publishing their documents on the site. So sure it will not be an issue.

Thanks Malcolm

[loredo]

Ohana,

I've just send everything to Malcolm. If you want the documents too, I have no problem sending them over.

Shoot me a PM and with an E-Mail address...

[ohana]

Hi - PM sent ........

[loredo]

Have a look at your inbox.

[Valor323]

The previous owner of my boat had to replace the rudder bearings as a fault found on survey 3 months ago. They replaced the copper sleeve, the upper bearing and the large plastic white washer between the hull and the rudder. Upon arrival in Florida, the boat was on the hard and the rudder had zero play. I sailed the boat from Florida to NY last month and there was significant play in the bearing when I hauled out 2 weeks ago. The fiberglass hole in the hull unevenly gets a little bigger over time as it was explained to me requiring a shim to be used to fill the gap.

I have attached 3 videos below. The 2nd and 3rd videos seem to make a lot of sense and looks easy.

The first one is from a Beneteau with the same issue. HTTPs://youtu.be/oTw-GIzhucc?si=SOryUlUDa1gjZUi8 

The second one is a similar issue and how they fixed it on a catamaran. On this video, fast forward to the 8:14 minute mark.

This third video is almost the same as the 2nd video but on a Beneteau.https://youtu.be/ogA7Qp-BDXw?si=W6bWxaqQCOJvUrT6

[loredo]

Valor 323, what year was your boat build?  Reason I ask is that the earlier boats had an entirely different setup for the rudder(s) from what we're talking about in this thread.

Sorry, what Parley revival does in that video is complete NON SENSE!  These bushings need to be glued in using the correct resin.  That's all that is to it. Think about the forces that the rudder develops in a sea way, how could a shim made out of a plastic bottle be up to the task? You can see that the bushing was loose in his boat. It was not held by any kind of glue. That's what happened in my boat too.  Whoever installed his and my rudder had no idea of what they were doing.

[Valor323]

2013 41ds which is 409 hull unless I'm mistaken. Is this not the same rudder and bearing setup? 

[MalcolmP]

Nov 30, 2023 16:20:18 GMT loredo said:

Ohana,

I've just send everything to Malcolm. If you want the documents too, I have no problem sending them over.

Shoot me a PM and with an E-Mail address...

Thanks to Loredo. It is now all uploaded at: 

jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/11140/rudder-information-jeanneau-yachts-57

Malcolm

[loredo]

What I’m going to discuss is how to install the bronze rudder bushings correctly. I’m not going into detail how to remove the rudder from the boat since that would need to be boat specific.

I received this document from Jeanneau : link to PDF

Although this PDF is for the JY53/57/57 it should be universal for the installation of these bushings in all boats.There are videos on YouTube showing people dropping their rudder with the shaft still in the rudder tube (opening in the hull where the rudder is inserted). That’s a no go. To install the bushing(s) the surface where it’ll sit needs to be cleaned. (How could a resin / glue do it’s thing on a dirty surface?) I can’t imagine a way to clean the internal of the rudder tube with the rudder stock still in there. The rudder needs to come out completely. One word of caution, I had ordered new bushings from Jeanneau, but I could’ve re-used the old ones. There was nothing wrong with them. The only problem with them was that the glue (silicone was used in my case) was not strong enough to hold the bushings in place. A thorough cleanup of the bushings would’ve been enough.

Step one : (picture one and two,page 1in the PDF) clean the -rudder tube - the bushing(s) – the sleeve(s) on the rudder stock- thoroughly. I think it is a good idea to roughen the ruder tube and the outer side of the bushing to provide better adherence for the methacrylate resin. (In the PDF Jeanneau calls it a glue.)
To do so, I used 80 grit sandpaper. On the sleeves I used 500 grit and then 1000 grit wet sandpaper.

Step two: lay wax on the internal surface of the bushing and on the sleeve. The wax does two things, lubricate the bushing, not allow the resin to stick on those surfaces. (BTW no grease or other lubricant is needed on the bushings.) Jeanneau mentions TR104 wax. It’s a mould release wax: link to wax

At this point it is a good idea to de-grease the surfaces (acetone) which will come in contact with the resin.

Step three: (picture three, page1 in the PDF) place the bushing on the sleeves and tighten it with a large zip tie. Tight enough to not have any axial play between the sleeve and the bushing. Too tight and the rudder will become hard to turn, not tight enough will result in play. Using 12mm wide reinforced adhesive tape keep the bushing in measure. Then cut the zip tie. (Zoom into pic #3 in the PDF to see how Jeanneau does it.) If you then slide the bushing off the rudder stock and place it into the opening in the hull, you’ll see that there will be a gap between the hull and the bushing. That’s not because the opening has become enlarged, but it’s supposed to be the space for the resin. The bushing was never meant to be inserted using pressure to hold it in place. Pressure on the bushing would then compress the bushing onto the rudder stock… Having seen how much of a gap there is between the bushing / hull gives you an approximate idea how much resin to apply on the bushing before you insert it. Better too much rather than not enough…
Side note, the JY57 has two bushings. One on the top another one at the bottom of the rudder stock. I don’t know if all rudders use two of them. My guess would be that smaller boats might use only the bottom one.

Now it’s time to reinstall the rudder and bond the bushings to the hull. As mentioned above, Jeanneau recommends the use of methacrylate resin. I’ve had a hard time getting ahold of that resin. It is a very strong two component structural adhesive. The problem I’ve had was that most of the resins I was able to find on the web were the ones with very rapid cure times. Like five minutes before it starts to cure. The job of re-installing the rudder surely isn’t complicated but takes a bit longer than five minutes from the moment the resin is applied to the finish. Be advised… After a longish research I found this one : link to resin

Step four: (picture two-three-four, page2 in the PDF) apply the resin on the perimeter of the bushings. *Insert the upper bushing into the self-aligning bearing. Place the lower bushing onto its sleeve on the rudderstock above the compensation ring. The gap in the bushing has to face forwardstowards the bow. Setup the rudder and do NOT MOVE it until the methacrylate resin is completely cured. Depending upon temperature +/- two hours.

To setup the rudder I removed the emergency steering cover and fed a rope through it. Fixed it on the top of the rudderstock and then winched the rudder up using a halyard. Just make sure the pull on the rudder is centered with the opening in the deck so to make sure the rudder is aligned correctly in the rudder tube. (*IF you have an upper bushing.)

Hope this helps some.