Cost to replace keel bolts?

[pipemma]

A quick question: can anyone give me a rough ball-park of the costs involved to replace keel bolts? Obviously I assume the keel needs dropping and hence it's a big job (and I dare say there's a bit of "piece of string" involved). Would appreciate any guesses/past experience

Thanks!

[bj]

What´s the  reason for change the bolts?

[pipemma]

I just need a rough ball-park assuming the worst and they need changing. In an ideal world they don't.

[jdl01]

You can drop the keel or replace the bolts sequentially, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. The latter is a far cheaper procedure.

[pipemma]

Apr 25, 2023 17:54:08 GMT jdl01 said:

You can drop the keel or replace the bolts sequentially, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. The latter is a far cheaper procedure.

Good to know it doesn't necessarily entail dropping the keel. Personally I feel there's no need to replace them; the boat is only 14 years old. Unfortunately a surveyor has spooked a nervous buyer by calling some surface corrosion "dangerous", presumably to cover his own back.

[zaphod]

Apr 26, 2023 19:17:28 GMT pipemma said:

Apr 25, 2023 17:54:08 GMT jdl01 said:

You can drop the keel or replace the bolts sequentially, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. The latter is a far cheaper procedure.

Good to know it doesn't necessarily entail dropping the keel. Personally I feel there's no need to replace them; the boat is only 14 years old. Unfortunately a surveyor has spooked a nervous buyer by calling some surface corrosion "dangerous", presumably to cover his own back.

That sounds a bit extreme!

Do you have pics of your keel bolts?

[pipemma]

I hope I can add them here OK

Apparently I can only attach 3 files, so I'll add the fourth in the next post

[pipemma]

And here's the fouth. The surveyor wrote:

• All the keel bolts and nuts were noted to be exhibiting significant amounts of corrosion.
• All the bolts and nuts were hammer tested which saw the signifiant corrosion noted resulting in pieces of the mild steel detaching from the nut and bolts.

Recommendation - Dangerous: The keel nuts and backing plates should be removed and the keel bolts further inspected below the nuts and backing plates. Given the level of corrosion noted to both keel bolts and nuts, these may require replacing following further investigation. Quotations for dropping the keel and replacing the keel bolts and nuts should be sought prior to purchase as the cost of such a repair could be significant.

[Charlie-Bravo]

Cautious fellow that surveyor, or perhaps inexperienced, or somehow you upset him …. however, he has said what he said and the prospective buyer could possibly be a little alarmed, so, what to do now.

I would say to the buyer that you agree there is some corrosion , and that you would be happy to remove nuts washers and backing plate, but initially from one or two sets , and that should this show the stud area hidden at the moment to be sound, you would arrange for the remaining nuts and stud ends to be ‘refurbished’ (wire brush and paint) to prevent further deterioration of their condition.

Agreeing to things will be seen by the buyer as a positive move, but needs to be kept manageable, so this may be a way forward toward a successful sale, and the proposal of the refurbishment is more than would be expected, and may get agreement from the surveyor.

I think they look fine, if a bit rusty but only surface corrosion, and it is most likely that the studs are fine .

Hope your studs are lovely below the nuts and plates.

CB

[pipemma]

We've never met the surveyor (the only contact ever was when we asked for a quote for a survey on a boat and our offer was rejected so it never got that far)

I too didn't think the bolts were too bad.

We've already offered to get the minor work done and to get the keel bolts pulled - the buyer is demanding all 11 get pulled! Also trying to impose totally unreasonable timescales (especially bearing in mind it's Greece), and conditions such as surveyor should vet the engineer and stand over him while the work is done

We're waiting on the quote from the engineer as we will have to get the work done anyway. If it's less than 5% of the boat value, the buyer contractually can't pull out. He's been quoted 20k by the most expensive service providers in the area (which is totally ridiculous)

[zaphod]

I have to admit I wouldn't like it if my keel bolts looked like that. I don't blame the buyer for being cautious. To me, that is a sign of a perpetually wet bilge.

Having said that, my last boat, which DID have a perpetually wet bilge, had keel bolts that looked like that, (although it took over 40 years to get to that state). Of all the surveys the boat went through, including when I sold it, the surveyors never recommended replacing them, they just recommended that they be cleaned and painted.

If that deal falls through, I suggest you get in there with a wire brush and clean them up before the next buyer comes along.

On a side note, it is interesting to see that they went with conventional studs and nuts on your keel. My 39i is the same generation, and it has stainless capscrews instead of studs.

[Charlie-Bravo]

With you already agreeing to pull the bolts, they are not really an issue, just a job to be done, and at an acceptable cost.

If the bolts are not hiding under a fuel tank or other large obstacle, and the yard is well equipped, it’s a day or two job, …. new studs would be inserted so the old ones can be attacked without fear of thread damage during the removal , so, parts (not much )plus yard time (always more than you hope) no where near the price mentioned, but perhaps that price included a re rig, new sails and new radar, plotter etc.

Surveyor supervision of engineer: as long as the surveyor knows when the work is proposed, it’s down to him to be there, if he ‘sleeps in‘ on the day,  the work still goes ahead, if he doesn’t like the look of the engineer ….. too bad.

Time scales: if it is all ‘unreasonable’ call their bluff, and unfortunately seek another buyer if they walk, at least you can put “new keel bolts fitted” in the advert.  If waiting an extra week or two is threatening to make the buyers walk, it sounds like they may not be serious about buying your boat.

You probably know about how it feels when you find ‘the’ boat you want , yes you want a great deal, you know the owner wants to sell, and you can make all sorts of demands ……. and can always climb down when your demands are refused, and either accept things as they are, or walk.

All you can do is behave reasonably, be a little generous if you can afford to, and then leave it to play out as the Gods intend.

Hope the Gods smile on you.

CB

[pipemma]

The offer price took account of needing to re-rig and possibly new sails in due course. The plotter is an Axion 9+ Pro and there is already a Quantum radar. 

[pipemma]

Apr 27, 2023 18:50:12 GMT Charlie-Bravo said:

If the bolts are not hiding under a fuel tank or other large obstacle, and the yard is well equipped, it’s a day or two job, …. new studs would be inserted so the old ones can be attacked without fear of thread damage during the removal , so, parts (not much )plus yard time (always more than you hope) no where near the price mentioned, but perhaps that price included a re rig, new sails and new radar, plotter etc.

Verbally we understand the engineer/yard are talking about 11-13k to change the keel bolts which still seems rather steep, but we/our representative are struggling to get that in writing, let alone itemised or a timescale - this on a 999 emergency request. And until the bolts are pulled, I would have thought nobody knows whether or not they actually need changing.

[Charlie-Bravo]

Steep indeed at around 1000 $£€  to wind out a stud and pop a new one in, cheaper to fly out an engineer for a 2 week Nidri holiday, or a Greek flotilla engineer looking for some pocket money …….

I guess it’s better that 20k, and suppose if it doesn’t ruin you, and makes the sale go ahead , perhaps it’s the only way forward, 

CB

[bj]

Apr 27, 2023 18:31:33 GMT zaphod said:

I have to admit I wouldn't like it if my keel bolts looked like that. I don't blame the buyer for being cautious. To me, that is a sign of a perpetually wet bilge.

Having said that, my last boat, which DID have a perpetually wet bilge, had keel bolts that looked like that, (although it took over 40 years to get to that state). Of all the surveys the boat went through, including when I sold it, the surveyors never recommended replacing them, they just recommended that they be cleaned and painted.

If that deal falls through, I suggest you get in there with a wire brush and clean them up before the next buyer comes along.

On a side note, it is interesting to see that they went with conventional studs and nuts on your keel. My 39i is the same generation, and it has stainless capscrews instead of studs.

Cast iron keel and stainless steel bolts is not a good combination.

[pipemma]

Apr 25, 2023 17:54:08 GMT jdl01 said:

You can drop the keel or replace the bolts sequentially, it depends on what you are trying to achieve. The latter is a far cheaper procedure.

FWIW I've had two separate professional people (one in Greece, one in Italy) say the same: if there's no delamination and no signs of grounding, you only need to pull and replace the bolts sequentially (if they do need replacing). In fact, one of them, who is also a GRP specialist, specifically says *don't* drop the keel unless there's a hard grounding because dropping the keel will cause delamination.
The guy in Italy recently did it on a 42i, cost 3k+VAT - bit different from the 10/11/13k that's being bandied about (or was until people started ghosting me)

[bj]

Why would dropping a keel cause delamination?