Winch pulses/starts and stops

[virtualburton]

Hi everyone, I have a 2013 Sun Odyssey 469 and recently have noticed that the main electric winch beside the companionway hatch seems to start and stop when I push on the either button, low or high speed. For instance, if I am trying to haul the main for when I press the button, it will run for maybe half a second and then stop. If I push the button again it will do it the same so I have to "pulse" again, again, again, etc. and eventually the interval will get longer between presses until finally it will stay on.

It's very unusual and I don't think it's a wiring or voltage cutout issue because if it was, I would expect it to run normally in the beginning and then cut out as either the voltage went down or the wires started to heat up due to overload or something... in my case it acts up at the beginning and then runs fine.

Has anyone else experienced this? I'm wondering if it is some sort of a safety cut-out fault for the manual winch handle or something like that is maybe sticking?

This is my first sailboat so I really have no experience with these winches. Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,

David. 

[eoin2020]

Hi David, 

I'm guessing as it's the winch beside your companionway it's for your main?

Here's a suggestion;
 Have you tried winching your main manually? And or even hauled on the mail by hand to check for free movement of sail slugs/bearing rollers/mast head blocks etc., and that the halyard is actually free to haul the main sail up the first several feet/meters up the mast.

As you've already suggested that the issue only happens initially and then appears to stay on!
Is it possible that you have you answered your own question, is it a safety cut off feature to avoid damaging headboards/sails and or rigging if there's excessive friction noted in the torque of the motor?

(I have all manual winch's so I've not experienced your issue.)
But it does sound like a safety cut off as you've suggested already. 

[eoin2020]

As an addition to my last post (only if your issue is a safety cut off). 
Believe it or not too, coiling halyards can induce a twist within the halyards and they can work their way up the line to the mast head blocks and cause tremendous friction. This issue has actually restricted (when excessive) the main from fully hoisting also. Not in your case, but I'm wondering can excessive friction also cause your winch to cut off like what's happening to you. 

[virtualburton]

Thanks so much for the quick response Eoin!

I have manually hoisted the main and it is not stuck or excessively high friction as far as I can see. In fact, today when this happened I was pulling a friend up the mast (who was helping me clear my Christmas Lights from the spreader) and the main halyard was not even connected to the sail, so I think the issue is with the winch itself...

David

[zaphod]

It sounds no me like a switch problem or a bad connection. That is where I would start.

[virtualburton]

Hi all. Thanks for the answers and suggestions.

Here is what I learned:

- the Harken electric winch on my boat is call a model Radial 46 2 speed.
- electrically it has 4 components - the switches, the motor, the control box and a load controller (overload protector).
- the switches take power from a 5amp fuse and run to the controller. 
- the load controller is option, and if installed the switches are wired to it as well as the controller.

here’s the wiring diagram:



It looks like they have a new control box to replace the BEB500 and BEB1000. My boat has a BEB1000 with a size 46 winch.

for anyone interested, here’s the (whopping) costs of these components I found:

- Winch assembly (no control box or load controller) - $3800 USD
- Control box - BEB1000 - $196 USD, new one $597 USD (!!)
- Load Controller - $297 USD

Luckily I don’t think I need to replace any components. First I had to find them - there’s a panel under the winch and after opening it all of the components are there. There are several small (16ga) wires that run from the switches to the electrical control box and load controller. They are connected with Jeanneau spade connectors, which I have never been a huge fan of. I unplugged each one and inspected them for corrosion. They all looked clean, but some of them felt a little bit Wiggley, so I push them all back on firmly, retested the winch, and everything seems to be working fine. For now!

I’ll keep you posted if anything else changes, but maybe this is an easy fix. Fingers crossed!  

David

[zaphod]

Sounds like you've got it figured out. Just the fact that you pulled the Spade connector off and put it on again probably fixed a bad connection on the control circuit. If you want the spades to fit a little tighter you can gently pinch them with some pliers. Or if you have a pair of crimpers just cut them off and put new ones on. They shouldn't be wiggly, that means they aren't making good contact.

[virtualburton]

That’s what I’m thinking too. I’ll crimp new ones on and heat shrink them. I was an easy fix (again, I hope!) but I knew absolutely nothing about electric winches so wanted to start by asking here.

On another note - a good friend just bought a new 2023 SO 349! I’ll send him a link to this forum.

Take care guys,
David

[eoin2020]

Glad you got sorted David.

Just catching up and Zaphod's suggestion of the bad connection, reminded me of the first time donkey's years ago, when I'd come across the term "a bad earth", in automotive auto electrics.
And that's also caused by loose connections spade or otherwise which can cause some weird effects to cars lights when the current runs in the wiring.

Glad you got sorted and good idea to swap out the connections and get the tinned ones too.

[virtualburton]

Thanks eoin. 

Quick update for everyone - I was out sailing again today and it worked perfectly so pretty sure that’s all it was.

I feel a bit stupid for posting it given such an easy solution. When I posted it I knew absolutely 0 about the system and assumed there was some sort of interlock failing. I had never even had the headliner cover off so didn’t know anything about the components or how it works. I feel better now knowing a little bit and hope this may help someone in future.

Another thing I learned was there are great service manuals and videos on Harken’s site for how to service most of their stuff. I’ll gon through all of my winches in the spring and give them some care becuase I doubt they’ve touched since new in 2013.

Happy holidays everyone,
David

[petros42]

Great to hear they are working again. Connectors are often the weak point.
I like to goop up the connectors with dielectric grease ... especially if sealing them with shrink tube.

[zaphod]

Dec 14, 2022 1:46:14 GMT petros42 said:

Great to hear they are working again. Connectors are often the weak point.
I like to goop up the connectors with dielectric grease ... especially if sealing them with shrink tube.

Dielectric grease is NON conductive. Not the best thing to put on a connector that you want to actually conduct electricity. If dielectric grease is in a connection it will reduce the conductivity of the connection.

[virtualburton]

Thanks Zaphod. I’m also curious about di-electric grease. I agree that it is non-conductive, nor would we want it to be! If you used conductive grease it would short across the connections so that would be no good.

However, I don’t agree with your comment that it’s “Not the best thing to put on a connector that you want to actually conduct electricity” though… 

The whole point of dielectric grease is to prevent the connection from corrosion and the environment and there is a myth about it reducing conductivity. If you’re not supposed to use it on electrical connections, then what would you use it for? The main use case of di-electric grease is preventing corrosion on electrical connections.

Here is a good video I found that debunks the myth that it reduces conductivity:

www.nyelubricants.com/myth-grease-interferes-with-conductivity

A real-life example is my wind instrument. A pin corroded and broke off and I recently had to replace the whole thing. It was professionally installed and when they installed it at the top of my mast, they put dielectric grease on all of those pins and said one contributor to it breaking was no di-electric grease.

In any event, there was no corrosion on my winch connections, they were just a bit loose and I think the spade connectors Jeanneau uses are poor.

My 2 cents…

Thanks,
David.

[petros42]

The nyelubricants article matches my understanding.  My goal is to prevent any oxidation or corrosion of the metal connectors and the grease helps with this. 

My masthead wind instruments failed and Raymarine replaced them but with a service note saying: if the connectors at the top are not coated with dielectric grease that they are not covered by warranty.

[Charlie-Bravo]

I use Vaseline on spades, it is a little conductive, and doesn’t want to be used with rubbery seals as on some electrical items, but it does seem to stop the corrosion for many years.

CB

[eoin2020]

Dec 13, 2022 23:13:14 GMT virtualburton said:

Thanks eoin. 

Quick update for everyone - I was out sailing again today and it worked perfectly so pretty sure that’s all it was.

I feel a bit stupid for posting it given such an easy solution........

No such thing as what we sometimes often think in hindsight as a silly question. If we knew the answer at the time we wouldn't ask .

I remember when first trying to get my noggin around the understanding of basic electronics, (and sometimes still I struggle). The replies while all great and informative, to me were like trying to learn Chinese through Russian when you speak english  and with Egyptian Hieroglyphics. 

Good to hear you're sorted though!

[zaphod]

Dec 14, 2022 17:26:00 GMT virtualburton said:

Thanks Zaphod. I’m also curious about di-electric grease. I agree that it is non-conductive, nor would we want it to be! If you used conductive grease it would short across the connections so that would be no good.

However, I don’t agree with your comment that it’s “Not the best thing to put on a connector that you want to actually conduct electricity” though… 

The whole point of dielectric grease is to prevent the connection from corrosion and the environment and there is a myth about it reducing conductivity. If you’re not supposed to use it on electrical connections, then what would you use it for? The main use case of di-electric grease is preventing corrosion on electrical connections.

Here is a good video I found that debunks the myth that it reduces conductivity:

www.nyelubricants.com/myth-grease-interferes-with-conductivity

A real-life example is my wind instrument. A pin corroded and broke off and I recently had to replace the whole thing. It was professionally installed and when they installed it at the top of my mast, they put dielectric grease on all of those pins and said one contributor to it breaking was no di-electric grease.

In any event, there was no corrosion on my winch connections, they were just a bit loose and I think the spade connectors Jeanneau uses are poor.

My 2 cents…

Thanks,
David.

Thanks for the link. That is good to know. I have used dielectric grease on multi pin connectors but have always been leery about getting it right into the contacts themselves. I have instead though of it as a barrier to keep moisture from getting in there at all. It is good to know it doesn't effect the integrity of the electrical contacts.

I have never used it on Spade connectors of the type we are talking about here, but then corrosion isn't an issue in the areas where the spades are being used on my boat.