SO 440 Selden boom single line reefing

[shenandoah]

We have had issues with our single line reefing system from the moment we took delivery of our boat. I wrote it off to a large extent because everyone seems to have issues with single line reefing especially with friction in the system. I finally decided to take a serious look at it and discovered that the Selden system actually has two lines. One attached to the reef tack and then to a car inside the boom and the other attached to the reef clew and run through the car, the boom and back to the cockpit. that line is the "single" line you pull to put in the reef. 

However, this is not how my system was rigged. The dealer seems to have bypassed the car inside the boom and simply run one long line. I have heard of others doing this but adding blocks on the sail to reduce the friction. This was not done either. 

My question is for those who have a Selden boom, how was your reef system originally rigged?  If using the car system inside the boom, how well does it work? 

Thank you!

Warm regards,
Chuck Osborne

[zaphod]

The single line reefing in our Selden boom works flawlessly. It definitely should be set up the way Selden designed it. If it isn't, then the dealer should make it right.

[shenandoah]

Thank you, that is helpful feedback. I have read some complaints about the Selden system so I wasn't sure if this was a mistake or something Jeanneau instructs its dealers to do. 

[rene460]

Hi Shenandoah,

We have over ten years experience with the Selden system, and as Zaphod says, it works flawlessly when rigged correctly.

It is a true single line reefing system, with 2:1 pulley system on both the leech and the luff.  That moving car is the device that allows a single line to do both with one continuous pull on the reefing line.  The SO30i has two reefs, with a separate moving car inside the boom for each reef.  That extra line to the clew you mentioned is the adjustable outhaul, nothing to do with reefing, and only works on a full sail, and also 2:1.

The dealer should definitely be re-rigging the boom,  though after he has made such a mess of it, you may be better to do it yourself if he gets difficult.  The Selden guide is perfectly clear on how it is intended to be, but it’s a big job and probably best to remove the boom from the boat and set it up on trestles.  You may need to remove both boom end fittings to make it easy.  It’s pretty crowded in the boom of a small boat, but yours should have more room.  Of course your cars and ropes will also be larger.

When it has been done, do check that you can pull in and shake out both first and second reefs in calm weather to prove it is correctly rigged.  And do learn to use the adjustable outhaul for sail shaping.  We initially had an issue with the second reef when first rigged, but the dealer fixed it without argument, though he admitted it required some bad language.  (Apparently one of the reefing lines went the wrong side of one of the cars).

Its a great system when rigged correctly.

rene460

[shenandoah]

rene460,
Thank you for that insight. I am curious now because this is the diagram I have from Selden support.seldenmast.com/files/595-706-E.pdf .

It shows two lines for the first and second reef. There is a forward reef line attached to the cringle on the luff, or the reef tack if you prefer, and to the car in the boom. There is an aft line which is run from the leech cringle, or reef clew, into the boom through a block on the car, back to a block aft of the car and then forward to the gooseneck and down the mast and back to the cockpit. That is the single line you pull. 

The outhual is rigged through the boom as you suggested, but that is a completely different line. As you suggested it is a very useful and under utilized trimming tool. 

Is this diagram incorrect?  

I have contacted the dealer but have not heard back. Ideally I get the dealer or Jeanneau to cover the cost of a different rigger fixing the situation, otherwise I will be doing it myself. 

Warm regards,
Chuck

[zaphod]

That looks like the basic diagram. As you can see there are cars inside the boom that need to be strung for the clew, and the tack is a separate line that terminates at the car. You will definitely have to take your boom apart to get the lines fed properly, and they may have to replace the line with longer if they cut it to length. There are a couple of differences on our boat. Instead of the aft reefing line going through a grommet on the leech of the main there is a block sewn to the sail which greatly reduces friction. The aft line is terminated to a padeye on the bottom of the boom with a stopper knot instead of looping around the boom with a bowline.

If you bought the boat new then the dealer should definitely pay the cost of rigging it correctly. Proper commissioning is their responsibility. I would insist on having a rigger do it rather than just their "handyman" since he was likely the one that did it wrong in the first place!

[shenandoah]

Zaphod,
Thank you. That is helpful. 

[rene460]

Hi Shenandoah,

Yes, that is the sketch you need.  Very difficult to understand how a single line pulls in both the luff and leech lines and both with 2:1 advantage, until you see that sketch.  Personally I think it’s brilliant, but only possible with a complex boom extrusion.  Obviously different riggers use slightly different boom attachments.  The leech has a block sewn onto the sail like Zaphod described, but used a loop tied around the boom as shown but through a pad eye per Zaphod description.  This means the pad-eye positions the line on the boom but the line does not pull the pad-eye sideways, but clearly both ideas work.  Note that nothing controls whether the luff or leech comes in first, it’s just a balance of the friction forces, but both stop at a firm endpoint, so the second one catches up as necessary.  First time you pull in a reef, mark the halliard so you don’t ease it too far when it’s needed in strong winds.

The sketch only shows one reef system (with full lines).  The second reef is identical, so second car, blocks, luff line to front of the second car etc, only the leech line attachment point to the boom differs (as shown in the dotted lines).  So single line, as drawn with full lines, refers to the first reef, there is a second “single line” for the second reef with second the complete internal system.  Different colour for each reef strongly recommended, though luff line colour is not important.  With two complete systems plus the outhaul system you can see why the boom is described as crowded on the inside, especially with the smaller section on the 30i.

Those written instructions above the sketch describe the procedure to get the the lines run and the cars in the correct starting position, attaching the necessary pulling lines etc., so follow them carefully.  Don’t cut the luff lines short until you have tried the system, they are a pain if too short. 

I hope the dealer can see that he needs to redo it properly for you, though in the end if he is really reluctant, if you do it yourself, you can be confident it’s done right.

rene460

[shenandoah]

Thank you Rene460. Going to get it rigged correctly and will report back. 

[shenandoah]

The saga continues. The dealer has responded to me saying they talked to Selden and were told that Jeanneau does not specify the single line reefing system on new builds. 

Can any recent buyers of traditional or performance rigs verify this? How was your reefing system rigged upon delivery? 

Thank you!

[zaphod]

Jun 13, 2022 20:05:06 GMT shenandoah said:

The saga continues. The dealer has responded to me saying they talked to Selden and were told that Jeanneau does not specify the single line reefing system on new builds. 

Can any recent buyers of traditional or performance rigs verify this? How was your reefing system rigged upon delivery? 

Thank you!

Wow, really? I know my 2011 39i came with it standard. Try to find markings on the boom that will identify which extrusion it is, that will tell you if it is capable of accepting the single line reefing cars. If it doesn't have the internal cars you may be able to retrofit them.

It is hard to believe that Jeanneau would go backwards on their classic main setup.

[John]

Any good rigger should be able to sort this , that's the first place to start .

[shenandoah]

Thank you joconor. Rigging the reefs correctly can certainly be done by any good rigger, or done oneself. That really isn't the question. Ours is a new boat still under warranty and if it was done incorrectly then the dealer / Jeanneau has to fix it. 

Thus far we've been unable to ascertain how the reefs are specified by Jeanneau. The dealer claims that the Selden system wasn't specified. I have not had a chance to take the boom cap off and verify if the cars are in there. Even if they are not I can't verify that they were not specified. 

If the system was not specified I have been given a price of $800 for the conversion kit, basically the cars inside the boom. That is just for the hardware and then I would have to install or pay a rigger. I may very well end up doing that but I was hoping others who have recently purchased a Jeanneau with a traditional mainsail would be able to shed some light on how their reefing system was rigged. This might show if there is a standard. 

I have also asked Jeanneau directly and am waiting to hear back. I will certainly share what I have learned. If it truly is not specified then I may very well be calling a rigger. 

Thank you,

Chuck

[shenandoah]

We heard back from Jeanneau and they no longer specify the Selden system with the cars inside the boom. They did provide a diagram which is slightly different from how it is currently rigged. I'll make those changes and see how it works. 

Fingers crossed. 

Warm regards,

Chuck 

[zaphod]

Jun 27, 2022 16:36:04 GMT shenandoah said:

We heard back from Jeanneau and they no longer specify the Selden system with the cars inside the boom. They did provide a diagram which is slightly different from how it is currently rigged. I'll make those changes and see how it works. 

Fingers crossed. 

Warm regards,

Chuck 

My guess is that the boom section can still accept the cars, you just need to order them. It is worth looking into. It would bexwell worth the expense.

It seems pretty cheap of Jeanneau to cut corners on something like that!

[shenandoah]

I may very well do that. It seems strange to me as well, but I think so many new owners are requesting in mast furling that there isn't as much attention being paid to the traditional set up. 

[rene460]

Hi Shenandoah,

Its good to hear that you are at least getting some clear information, and it was supplied as intended, even if not as those of us with older boats expected.  I believe that if you quote the mast number (usually engraved at the foot of the mast on the aluminium extrusion, just above the foot casting), Selden will tell you the boom section that was supplied and whether it will accept the cars via a query on the Seldenmast website.

Having experienced the single line system, and really liked it, I would be likely to do it as an upgrade project, but it makes sense to first try it the way intended and see if you are happy with the simpler version.  If it all works well, it might not be worth the effort to change it.

Do you have a sketch of how the alternative system is rigged?

rene460

[shenandoah]

Yes I agree. Selden has confirmed that we can add the cars to our boom. They have a kit which we could purchase. They quoted $800. This is the diagram that Jeanneau sent. Hopefully I attached it correctly. This is simpler than the way it is done now. I'll give it a go and see if how it works. 

[Don Reaves]

Jun 28, 2022 13:04:16 GMT shenandoah said:

Yes I agree. Selden has confirmed that we can add the cars to our boom. They have a kit which we could purchase. They quoted $800. This is the diagram that Jeanneau sent. Hopefully I attached it correctly. This is simpler than the way it is done now. I'll give it a go and see if how it works.

Your picture is identical to the way the reefing system is rigged on my SO35, which has a Sparcraft mast and boom. I have added blocks at the reef turning points as indicated, and it helps a lot. The system works well, though it apparently doesn't have as much mechanical advantage as the in-boom cars would provide. Frankly, I like the simplicity.

[rene460]

Hi Shenandoah,

That sketch makes it perfectly clear thank you.  I guess that is a standard way of providing single line reefing on booms by other spar makers, as indicated by Don’s boom being similar.

The cars on the Selden system provide a two to one mechanical advantage on both the leech and the luff over what you have shown there.  Of course it adds friction too, so some of the advantage is lost to friction.  As much as I like the Selden system, like Don, I do like the simplicity of your system.  I would definitely suggest trying out before springing for the conversion kit.

On the 30i, I was able to pull in the reefs by hand without resorting to the winch, but on your larger sail area, increased friction, weight etc, you might be using the winch anyway, with appropriate care not to overdo it in case of any snags.  Perhaps leaving off the extra complication is a sensible cost saving, at least on larger boats.

Two minor points, which are probably due to simplification of the sketch, I suggest the line coming down from the luff reef to the deck needs a block on the mast carefully positioned so the line runs true, just below the gooseneck to help ensure adequate foot tension for good sail shape when reefed.  Similarly, the bowline on the boom for the leech reef points needs to be a little aft of directly below the reef point in the sail, to provide foot tension towards the end of the boom.  The bowline also needs an eye fixed to the underside of the boom to hold it in place.  The Selden boom has a track which facilitates its positioning and fixing of the eye.

I would definitely include the blocks in the sail at the reef points if they are not already there.  Pulling a line through a standard eye causes a lot of friction so you loose any feel for what is going on.  My previous boat was only 24 ft, with two line reefing, and the friction was still very high without blocks.

We will all be interested to hear how you go with the simpler system properly installed.

rene460

[shenandoah]

Rene460,
Thank you that is good advice. I will report back after the reefs get some use. 

Warm regards,

Chuck