43 DS Heavy weather sailing

[jj2]

Hello there!

I'm learning to navigate this website and also how to follow groups who own 43DS, so please be patient with me… there’s great acquired knowledge among you and I thank you for letting me be a part of it…  

As we get ready to enter the winter season and the Christmas Winds in the Caribbean and the northeaster's blowing down, I wanted to ask about your experiences in sailing the boat in different sail configurations if caught in 30 to 45 knot winds.

Our boat has a 130 furling Genoa and a battened main that falls in a lazy jack bag. Both fairly new.

What have you found to be the ideal sail configuration and how does she take it?

Would you recommend furling the Genoa completely and just sail with a reefed main? I guess you could only do that in a reach…

So far, our experience with her has shown us that in 18knots and full sails she behaves very comfortably going into the wind, but haven't experienced higher winds yet....

Also, in reference to ground tackle, we have a Bruce 44# with 200’ of new chain. Do you all think it’s worth the cost of buying a Rocna for example and keeping the Bruce as a secondary anchor? 

Thanks for your input!

Best,

[andreshs1]

Hi there

I do not consider myself an expert sailor by far, so please dont judge...

I tend to reef both sails by 25% when winds pick up over 25knots, and by 50% if goes over 30knots.
only once I was suddenly caught with over 40 knots and 45+ gusts and with the full main out on a starboard beam reach...had to manage that for 4 hours. The boat behaved beautifully, but lesson learnt...check the weather forecast before setting off alone 

cheers

[Zanshin]

I had some 150 mile passages at sea against wind and waves in my 43DS with over 30 knots and big waves. While progress was slow, the boat handled very well. The furling main makes balancing the sails a lot easier.

It is always recommended to have both sails up, even if their area is reduced to a handkerchief. This is important in heavy weather as it keeps the loads on the mast and rigging balanced.

What I would recommend you try when the wind is up a bit at more than 15 knots is to heave to. The difference is amazing to feel as you go from fighting the seas and rolling around to a steady state in just seconds. Each boat has an optimal sail plan for heaving to, I seem to remember that I had to have a lot of genoa out to make my 43DS heave to with an acceptable angle.

I'm not an anchor nerd and don't think that the anchor type is as important as the amount of chain you have out. Put out as much chain as the situation allows. Using a pilot analogy, anchor chain in the locker is like altitude above you or runway behind you - not useful.

[papawads]

As for anchoring - there’s a lot out there to read.

This one is very helpful.  

www.sailmagazine.com/cruising/anchor-snubber-tips

[jj2]

Thank you guys for the input. It’s comforting to know our boats will handle well 30+ knots and large seas. 

as the old saying goes, probably better than the crew….

I’ll experiment with heaving to…. Haven’t done that in over 30 years….

50% genoa and main sounds like a good rule of thumb…. Some people would want to have a storm jib, but I’d like to avoid going that route if possible. Their claim is that the furled  genoa is not made for heavy weather…

The article on chain, scope and snubbers was very informative.

If someone else would want to add their experiences that would be great as well…

Thanks to all! 

[sitara]

My sailmaker recommended heavy weather sails that would enable the boat to sail away from a lee shore in heavy winds. I have a version of a "gale sail" which seems to work very well although so far have not had to use it in very heavy weather.

[virtualburton]

I totally agree that anchor rode is more important than the anchor itself... ask me how I know! 

That said, I have a Rocna 20 on my SO469 and it's worth every penny IMHO. It hooks beautifully every time. I used to charter a 41' and it used to drag all the time. I could never sleep well when it was windy b/c I knew we were cruising the anchorage. 

Thanks for all the info on winds guys - I had similar questions. the guy in the Marina who has the boat next to me once told me "if you think you should reef you already should have". LOL.

David

[jdl01]

I agree with Zanshin on a two sail solution to heavy weather sailing. My reefing preference is main first for the initial effort. I try and reef on the tack that allows me to see the anchor points of the reef in the main to ensure I get a balanced reduction with single line reefing. The success of foresail reefing is a function of the sail - foam luff, scalloped leech and the hardware - a reefing unit rather than a furling unit. If your foresail shapes well on furling, I would make it my second reduction - if not, I would go for the second mainsail reef. You want to keep as much bow down drive as you can comfortably get, so a well working headsail is important. You will pound more and go slower without a headsail.
With anchors, bottom conditions have a big effect. If your preferred cruising grounds have mostly softer, rockless conditions, I would not favor a Bruce anchor, as even when set in a blow it tends to plow up the bottom - all other conditions it works well. I cruise in an area with a wide range of bottom conditions and switched to a Rocna some years ago - I am happy with the results.

[rxc]

Crossed the Atlantic in 2008 in my 43DS, with the standard Jeanneau 140 jib and RF main. 5 storms with sustained winds above 50 kts for 3-4 days at a time. Max winds of 59 kts. Seas to about 21 ft.

We used both sails, reefed down almost to handkerchiefs, and also ran the engine at a very slow speed. The boat did very well. The RF jib and main meant that we did not have to go on deck at any time to adjust the sails, which is very important, in these conditions.

Two summer trips from Bordeaux to Scotland in 2010 and 2012. Not quite as bad, but exciting at times. Same sails, same results. Blew out the leech of the jib and had it repaired in Milford Haven/Neyland. Great service in a short period of time.

Sails replaced by Mack Sails (Stuart FL) in 2015, and boat still sails well.

We have a full cockpit enclosure, which makes life under these conditions MUCH easier. Still have the motion, but no need to wear foulies. Ran into a 9 ft standing wave coming out of Strangford Lough (Ireland), and made like a submarine - green water from bow to stern, OVER the bimini, and only a few drops of water got thru a zipper. It also likely saved the boat when the steering quadrant failed off Bermuda and the boat fell over on its side in Force 7 conditions.

Anchoring depends on how/where you sail. I am a full believer in chain. Great stuff. The Lewmar 44 I have is original, and it set everywhere, except for a few places in the Chesapeake Bay that are soupy, and in weed at Cana, Scotland. Also carry a genuine Bruce 33 on chain, and a FOrtress FX-37, in pieces in a locker. All have been tested, and all work well. Make sure you use at least one snubber in heavy weather, and watch out for chafe on the snubber. WInd against tide can be tricky with this boat because it has a LOT of windage, especially with our enclosure.

[rxc]

One last thought. The time to reef is when you first start to wonder about whether you should do it.

[vasko]

Uo to 45 is fine just reef to max the sails

[katk]

We are in the Pacific Northwest (America) and have had 35kts and she’s sailed very well with both sails reefed in close- she feels quite stout in a blow.

For ground tackle we have a 55# spade and 300’ chain + 100’ rode and we sleep like babies. The spade works extremely well in the sand and mud but would probably not faire well in hard bottom so your cruising ground bottom matters! Also use a soft shackle and bridle to take the tension off the windlass.

Have recently started deploying “flopper stoppers” in swelly anchorages which has been wonderful and works to cut the roll quite a bit. (Lots of DIY options online- we bought the way overpriced (but effective) floperstopper.com). Highly recommend the space/time/$ investment if you spend time on an open shore.

[alenka]

Reefing. As other have said the time to do it is when you first start to think about it.

For me, or should I say my wife, that's once the wind goes through 16kts because I can do it single handed (and auto pilot) without having to luff up; and doing a little at a time on our furling sails keeps the boat as a nice steady balanced platform.  It used to be about 20+ kts but age as crept into our reckoning.  Not just ours (we both have bus passes!) but also the sails.  Ours are at least 10 years old and as stretch has crept in over they years so too as the amount of heel.

Running downwind I find the easiest sail platform is 25-30% of main and full Genoa. You won't blank the headsail with the main and the hull is not over-pressed. We have still managed just short of 10kts in this config with a real good blow from behind.

Anchors.  Think you will find you need to modify your bow roller arrangement to fit the Rocnor.  It wouldn't fit on ours so we went for the Manson Supreme.  Whilst I do not disagree about the amount of chain you let out being important in very crowded anchorages, like those here in the Ionian, if you start going much beyond 5:1 to you will find yourself swinging into other boats. 

[saltymetals]

I agree w most that has been said already but would add that if you do not have a storm jib then the way to get the genoa flatter when partly furled is to have it made with a foam luff. My new genoa (55 Sqm which is effectively 150%) has a foam luff and is in a laminated cloth. Same cloth for the main (41 sqm which is 20% more than the original of 34sq m) which is rolling furling with vertical battens. The latter means that it is even +8% sail area over the classic non-furling main which i believe is 38 sqm.

I would add one further comment, that you need to be careful if running the engine while sailing in heavy seas since it might not get sufficient oil if the oil in the sump all flows across to one side and leaves the oil pump dry. That is the risk, but i admit i still do it from time to time (at low revs) since it helps the rudder to hold the boat on the chosen heading.

After crossing Biscay and going down Portuguese coast in F 6-7 (occ F8) I fully endorse and was pleasantly surprised how well the 43ds handled in what were enormous Atlantic rollers.
Andrew

[alenka]

Hi Andrew,

You raise an interesting point regarding oil levels.

I always used to keep my oil level up to the top end, but in recent years other have suggested a much lower level to compensate for when the boat is heeling.

Is this new approach fashion or fat based?

Has anyone here been adversely affected by heel when motoring - resulting in engine problems??

[rienningsuk]

Not been in that boat but I feel there's something general missing here about balancing sails.

If you're aware of what balancing sails means, ignore this. If not read on, because this is how you decide how much headsail vs mainsail you need. You can generally get a feeling for percentages but it's better to understand what's going on.

If you have too much headsail out, the wind will drag the bow of your boat downwind. If you have too much mainsail out, it'll drag the back of your boat downwind, in turn pushing the bow up wind. So depending which way your bow goes depends which sail you need to reduce.

This becomes more important when reefing because your mainsail has reefing points vs your headsail been furled (in the most common setup), so you should set your reef on your main then adjust your headsail until she feels like she's generally pointing in a direction. There'll be some back and forth and movement from waves but you'll be able to tell which way it's pulling overall. 

This also helps take the load off your autopilot fighting the balance if it's incorrect too.

Again if this is known, ignore it. If not it's quite simple and a lot of people overlook it.

[jy51]

Just another point to consider; 

In heavy weather, up wind sailing, one needs power to punch through confused seas, to maintain straight line stability.  And that means having sufficient wind in the sails without the boat leaning too far or becoming unmanageable.

Hitting a breaking wave, can be like hitting a brick wall, with the boat coming to a sudden stop, resulting in wind and waves causing the boat to fall away, a manoeuvre not unlike a broach.  

Although I agree with the general census that the boat should be balanced with both sails, sometimes it is necessary to carry slightly more foresail or only foresail.

Yes I agree that the forces on only having a foresail are greater, but the argument would make sense in severe survival conditions, and nobody, if they have any sense would try to sail into the wind under those condition.

Lastly I would like to say that every condition is different and requires a different approach there is no one plan fits all.

Crossing the North sea from Sweden to Portsmouth in the winter of 2006, just after a passing hurricane took down most of the electricity pylons in the region,  We experienced Force 9 severe gale conditions for 6 days and nights, the wind was on the quarter ( thankfully) but the sea state was the worst I have ever experienced in my life, surfing down waves as high as buildings required a totally different technique, slowing the boat down and maintaining straight line stability was the main concern, most of the time running on poles alone gave us a boat speed of 8 knots and at one time we hit 10 knots in our 37 foot boat.  Yet when we put out sail is was only a heavily reefed working jib.  Since that experience I rushed out and purchased a drogue, but not a storm jib as I promised myself I would never attempt to sail up wind under those conditions, the boat might handle it but I wouldn't. 

[rienningsuk]

Jan 13, 2022 11:45:04 GMT jy51 said:

Just another point to consider; 

In heavy weather, up wind sailing, one needs power to punch through confused seas, to maintain straight line stability.  And that means having sufficient wind in the sails without the boat leaning too far or becoming unmanageable.

Hitting a breaking wave, can be like hitting a brick wall, with the boat coming to a sudden stop, resulting in wind and waves causing the boat to fall away, a manoeuvre not unlike a broach.  

Although I agree with the general census that the boat should be balanced with both sails, sometimes it is necessary to carry slightly more foresail or only foresail.

Yes I agree that the forces on only having a foresail are greater, but the argument would make sense in severe survival conditions, and nobody, if they have any sense would try to sail into the wind under those condition.

Lastly I would like to say that every condition is different and requires a different approach there is no one plan fits all.

Crossing the North sea from Sweden to Portsmouth in the winter of 2006, just after a passing hurricane took down most of the electricity pylons in the region,  We experienced Force 9 severe gale conditions for 6 days and nights, the wind was on the quarter ( thankfully) but the sea state was the worst I have ever experienced in my life, surfing down waves as high as buildings required a totally different technique, slowing the boat down and maintaining straight line stability was the main concern, most of the time running on poles alone gave us a boat speed of 8 knots and at one time we hit 10 knots in our 37 foot boat.  Yet when we put out sail is was only a heavily reefed working jib.  Since that experience I rushed out and purchased a drogue, but not a storm jib as I promised myself I would never attempt to sail up wind under those conditions, the boat might handle it but I wouldn't. 

Hey jy,

What's the purpose behind needing more headsail in those conditions? From what I'm aware of if you have more headsail you run the chance of the front digging in, in more extreme weather? I don't have much experience in big seas myself (had around 30 knots but not much more so far, actively avoided it) and looking to do some Bay of Biscay stuff this year to increase that. Would be interested in knowing why having more headsail is beneficial in those circumstances.

[rienningsuk]

Jan 13, 2022 11:45:04 GMT jy51 said:

Just another point to consider; 

In heavy weather, up wind sailing, one needs power to punch through confused seas, to maintain straight line stability.  And that means having sufficient wind in the sails without the boat leaning too far or becoming unmanageable.

Hitting a breaking wave, can be like hitting a brick wall, with the boat coming to a sudden stop, resulting in wind and waves causing the boat to fall away, a manoeuvre not unlike a broach.  

Although I agree with the general census that the boat should be balanced with both sails, sometimes it is necessary to carry slightly more foresail or only foresail.

Yes I agree that the forces on only having a foresail are greater, but the argument would make sense in severe survival conditions, and nobody, if they have any sense would try to sail into the wind under those condition.

Lastly I would like to say that every condition is different and requires a different approach there is no one plan fits all.

Crossing the North sea from Sweden to Portsmouth in the winter of 2006, just after a passing hurricane took down most of the electricity pylons in the region,  We experienced Force 9 severe gale conditions for 6 days and nights, the wind was on the quarter ( thankfully) but the sea state was the worst I have ever experienced in my life, surfing down waves as high as buildings required a totally different technique, slowing the boat down and maintaining straight line stability was the main concern, most of the time running on poles alone gave us a boat speed of 8 knots and at one time we hit 10 knots in our 37 foot boat.  Yet when we put out sail is was only a heavily reefed working jib.  Since that experience I rushed out and purchased a drogue, but not a storm jib as I promised myself I would never attempt to sail up wind under those conditions, the boat might handle it but I wouldn't. 

After more thought I'm assuming you mean that having more headsail is beneficial as if anything it will push you down wind and in heavy weather that's where you want to be heading anyway. And rounding upwind in heavy weather would not be fun. So it's better to be balanced forward to aid that and for safety.

[jy51]

Basically, Yes, but, as I said before, every condition is different, I was implying when the sea state is very agitated with short confused waves, the need then is to punch through to maintain straight line stability.  In most sloop configurations the foresail drives the boat and gives the power.

I can explain this by referring to one occasion many years ago when I was leaving the French port of Cherbourg to cross back to the Solent in the UK.  Although the wind was not above a 6 the sea state was like a washing machine.  Whilst sailing across the flat outer harbour I was overtaken by much faster and lighter boats of a similar size.  However, as soon as we left the protection of the outer harbour wall, these faster boats with full sail started to slam into the agitated seas, many reduced sail or motor-sailed on reefed main, this resulted in boats almost coming to a standstill as they hit the seas.  Although a much slower boat we managed to maintain constant forward motion by reefing the sails but keeping a larger foresail.  It was the wind that kept the bow cutting through and maintaining the straight line stability, we soon left many the others in our wake. 

I would like to stress that we were not a heavy displacement boat but carried an in-mast furling main and a working jib rather than a large overlapping genoa.  It is for this reason I said we were a slow boat.

Remember, I am simply giving my opinion, based on my sailing, and the conditions I have managed to cope under, I am not an expert and will never become complacent, regardless of the number of years I have sailed, we all know mother nature is the boss, we just learn to cope as best we can.

 

[jy51]

Jan 16, 2022 16:14:08 GMT rienningsuk said:

Jan 13, 2022 11:45:04 GMT jy51 said:

Just another point to consider; 

In heavy weather, up wind sailing, one needs power to punch through confused seas, to maintain straight line stability.  And that means having sufficient wind in the sails without the boat leaning too far or becoming unmanageable.

Hitting a breaking wave, can be like hitting a brick wall, with the boat coming to a sudden stop, resulting in wind and waves causing the boat to fall away, a manoeuvre not unlike a broach.  

Although I agree with the general census that the boat should be balanced with both sails, sometimes it is necessary to carry slightly more foresail or only foresail.

Yes I agree that the forces on only having a foresail are greater, but the argument would make sense in severe survival conditions, and nobody, if they have any sense would try to sail into the wind under those condition.

Lastly I would like to say that every condition is different and requires a different approach there is no one plan fits all.

Crossing the North sea from Sweden to Portsmouth in the winter of 2006, just after a passing hurricane took down most of the electricity pylons in the region,  We experienced Force 9 severe gale conditions for 6 days and nights, the wind was on the quarter ( thankfully) but the sea state was the worst I have ever experienced in my life, surfing down waves as high as buildings required a totally different technique, slowing the boat down and maintaining straight line stability was the main concern, most of the time running on poles alone gave us a boat speed of 8 knots and at one time we hit 10 knots in our 37 foot boat.  Yet when we put out sail is was only a heavily reefed working jib.  Since that experience I rushed out and purchased a drogue, but not a storm jib as I promised myself I would never attempt to sail up wind under those conditions, the boat might handle it but I wouldn't. 

Hey jy,

What's the purpose behind needing more headsail in those conditions? From what I'm aware of if you have more headsail you run the chance of the front digging in, in more extreme weather? I don't have much experience in big seas myself (had around 30 knots but not much more so far, actively avoided it) and looking to do some Bay of Biscay stuff this year to increase that. Would be interested in knowing why having more headsail is beneficial in those circumstances.

If you're looking to cross the Bay as far as La Corona, don't make the mistake we did, head much further south west if the sea state is bad and then turn back when you are just off the Spanish coast to run down into La Corona.  There is a large area of shallow water which goes well offshore across the entrance which in heavy weather can become quite dangerous with breaking waves.

[rienningsuk]

Jan 18, 2022 11:15:50 GMT jy51 said:

Basically, Yes, but, as I said before, every condition is different, I was implying when the sea state is very agitated with short confused waves, the need then is to punch through to maintain straight line stability.  In most sloop configurations the foresail drives the boat and gives the power.

I can explain this by referring to one occasion many years ago when I was leaving the French port of Cherbourg to cross back to the Solent in the UK.  Although the wind was not above a 6 the sea state was like a washing machine.  Whilst sailing across the flat outer harbour I was overtaken by much faster and lighter boats of a similar size.  However, as soon as we left the protection of the outer harbour wall, these faster boats with full sail started to slam into the agitated seas, many reduced sail or motor-sailed on reefed main, this resulted in boats almost coming to a standstill as they hit the seas.  Although a much slower boat we managed to maintain constant forward motion by reefing the sails but keeping a larger foresail.  It was the wind that kept the bow cutting through and maintaining the straight line stability, we soon left many the others in our wake. 

I would like to stress that we were not a heavy displacement boat but carried an in-mast furling main and a working jib rather than a large overlapping genoa.  It is for this reason I said we were a slow boat.

Remember, I am simply giving my opinion, based on my sailing, and the conditions I have managed to cope under, I am not an expert and will never become complacent, regardless of the number of years I have sailed, we all know mother nature is the boss, we just learn to cope as best we can.

Thanks for the explanation/example. Appreciate it.

And yeah for the bay of biscay I'd be crewing on a large 50ft boat with some really seasoned heavy weather skippers to gain knowledge and experience off of them. They're based around there so know the area really well so hoping I get that opportunity.

[moonshadow]

Lots of good advice already on sails in this thread. I will only add that since I sail a lot singlehand I’m glad to have roller curling main and jib. Not leaving the cockpit to reef and having unlimited reef points has been helpful.
As to anchors I sailed a few years with a big spade and now use a Mantus. 65 lb on a Jeanneau 469. The spade usually held well in sand and mud. So far the mantus has never failed me. One of the big differences is in setting technique. There was a good article a while ago in practical sailor if you have access to that. But they describe a similar finding to what I learned. The spade ( and maybe Bruce?) took some time and gentle nudging to dig in deeply. Testing it with a big pull too early would just pull it out. The Mantus ( and apparently the other newer types) either set hard really fast or they won’t set at all. I have many times taken a dive to look and every time the Mantus seemed to set fast it was solidly buried. Whenever I wasn’t sure it turned out to be hung on a rock bottom poorly. So I feel that just having that solid hook feeling instead of a 15 min process settling in is worth it.