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Post by fakinx on Nov 4, 2019 9:56:33 GMT
Hello all!
I'm considering to install wallas heater for my SO 42DS (2006) and Trevor's "how to" was valuable resource. Wallas is using different duct sizing plus multiple outlets so there will be some alternation of Trevor's project but nevertheless it's still a bit challenging.
First of all I would like to hear an estimate from other SO 42DS owners about internal volume of heating space? My estimate is some 70-80 m3 but I might be wrong. This is needed for correct pick of heater with consideration of infiltration. I'm estimating at least 2x exchange of internal volume on hour, so something with capacity of a least 140 m3 would be needed.
Secondly I'm considering picking wallas spartan. It's 1,4 - 4,5 kW heater witch should be more than sufficient for Med cruising grounds. It's relatively new so there is not much info on a web performance wise.
Any thoughts?
Best regards
Borut
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Post by NZL50505 on Nov 4, 2019 20:47:56 GMT
I installed 4kW Webasto following factory specs for ducting and outlets including insulating the pipes. The result is 6 outlets (1 in each space but 2 in after cabin) and the boat is super-warm. It’s actually over spec’d for our cruising needs in NZ and would probably be capable of keeping us warm if we dipped down to Antarctica! I wouldn’t reduce number of outlets but power of heater if budget was a factor. It’s useful to have an outlet in each heads for drying the area out after a shower or drying wet towels & clothes on cold wet days.
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Post by fakinx on Nov 4, 2019 21:05:20 GMT
Thx for your input NZL8970. I recon 4kW is more than enough for this type of yacht practically everywhere.
Question is wallas, webasto, eberspacher??? Differences are small but important (number of heater outlets, noise, power consumption). Wallas comes on top regarding my neighbor so...
I read some articles on topic and is all about personal flavor..,
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Post by NZL50505 on Nov 4, 2019 22:28:49 GMT
My Webasto is ok but we’ve had some trouble with it even after only 12 months of use. So I can’t recommend it and if I was buying again I’d try Eberspacher instead.
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 5, 2019 14:22:43 GMT
Our 2009 42DS has a Webasto 5kW unit fitted and that was fine in Scotland. I often used it when visiting the boat ashore in winter and remember it coping once when it was -3C outside. I might have used a 2kW fan heater to boost the temperature quickly but can't remember. However, it was much more than adequate in normal weather and quickly dropped to the low heat output mode. I don't know if it is of any use but have uploaded a diagram showing location of heater, ducting and wiring. It is in French but easy to read the duct sizes, junctions etc. www.mistroma.com/Manuals/HeaterFitting42DS.pdfI haven't used it much since leaving Scotland but do still fire it up every 6 weeks to keep it operational. The gap does get longer in mid-season when the temp. gets into high 30s to low 40s.  |
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Post by NZL50505 on Nov 6, 2019 6:50:14 GMT
That picture mistroma posted is the same one I used fir my set-up.
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Post by fakinx on Nov 6, 2019 9:46:46 GMT
Thx Mistroma. I studied this drawing previously from other threads. It’s factory setup which is preaty straight forward. My intended setup is a bit different because of different intended blower.
Wallas is quiet which is very good but has limited options per outlet (multiple hot air outlets per model). There is also some info about only 5 allowed outlets which is too little. There is also some concerns about duct lenghth. Blower is rather weak.
Option is Eberspacher (Espar on other side of the pond). It has single outlet and instalation would be identical per factory.
5kW is overkill for our cruising grounds although we use our yacht all year. Temps are around 5degC in winter at night and 10deg during day time. It could get colder but rarely so 4kW is very well on the safe side.
My original question remains unanswered. Internal heating volume? I thought about that some more and I think now it’s even less than 70m3. In that case even 4kW blower would be a bit overkill. I don’t mind some reserve power but I’m concerned about frequent start stop situations.
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Post by johannes on Nov 6, 2019 12:51:00 GMT
4 kW will not be overkill for a 42DS. It does not run at 4 kW start/stop, it has four power levels 0.9 - 4 kW.
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Post by Mistroma on Nov 6, 2019 14:29:58 GMT
Thx Mistroma. I studied this drawing previously from other threads. It’s factory setup which is preaty straight forward. My intended setup is a bit different because of different intended blower. Wallas is quiet which is very good but has limited options per outlet (multiple hot air outlets per model). There is also some info about only 5 allowed outlets which is too little. There is also some concerns about duct lenghth. Blower is rather weak. Option is Eberspacher (Espar on other side of the pond). It has single outlet and instalation would be identical per factory. 5kW is overkill for our cruising grounds although we use our yacht all year. Temps are around 5degC in winter at night and 10deg during day time. It could get colder but rarely so 4kW is very well on the safe side. My original question remains unanswered. Internal heating volume? I thought about that some more and I think now it’s even less than 70m3. In that case even 4kW blower would be a bit overkill. I don’t mind some reserve power but I’m concerned about frequent start stop situations. I didn't have a figure for the internal volume but thought a reference point with 5kW might be useful. I think it's overkill even in Scotland and that 4kW would be fine in your area. Johannes makes a good point. My previous boat had an Eberspacher unit and it only ran at full power for quite a short time. Our current Webasto is the same and you never notice any stop/start. The output drops to a low rate and the fan is barely audible. I imagine Wallas might be similar but only have experience of Eberspacher and Webasto. I remember reading that it wasn't good to continually run the heater at low settings because carbon built up in the combustion chamber. My first Eberspacher was used regularly and ran at the low setting for about 80% of the time. There was a large build up of carbon but only after about 10-11 years use. I test run our Webasto at full power every 6 weeks or so even though that means cranking the thermostat to full. I also used to turn it to full power for 10 minutes before turning it off when using it in cold weather. No idea if this regime helps but figured it was worth a try to minimise carbon build up (of course it might even make it worse). I've heard about cheap Russian and Chinese heaters and some people say that they are better than expected. Not such a big problem to replace regularly as they are a fraction of the price charged for Eberspacher or Webasto. I haven't looked into these but would certainly do that if I returned to Scotland and my Webasto needed replacement. |
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Post by pagoda54 on Nov 6, 2019 22:22:51 GMT
Our 42iP came with a 5KW Webasto, which worked OK initially. The heat output was fine for Scottish/Norwegian/Baltic sailing. However it became noisy and ultimately the thrust bearing on the blower fan gave up. The heater gauze was also heavily carbon coated.
The cost of replacement parts alone was well in excess of the entire "Planar 44D" Russian built system I finally fitted. It was nearly a drop-in fitting. Same exhaust/ mountings and fuel supply. Fairly easy. I figured that if the Planar heaters were designed to keep truck drivers warm in Siberia they would be robust devices. They are.
I rebuilt the Webasto by stripping down the controller card and replaced several destroyed power FET switches - and a cost of about £30. It now provides space heating in my garage!
There are also very inexpensive Chinese copies around. They seem to get fair reviews. I hear of people buying two and keeping the second as spares.
The days of Webasto- Eber-Espar monopolies on high cost are now disappearing.
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Post by fakinx on Nov 7, 2019 9:56:24 GMT
The days of Webasto- Eber-Espar monopolies on high cost are now disappearing. Amen to that, but... Out there is a swamp of low cost diesel air blow heaters with little to none working history. That is because of monopoly a very limited number of producer had for the last 30 years or so due to patent pending technology. Now those patents expired so everybody is using that (30 years old, mind you) technology, some just adapted a little, some made advancement and some just using old patents and reverse engineering without even understanding the problem. That often results in one season operation only. There are nevertheless some new producers which wants to make things proper so I would like to rephrase my question: What brand is your heater? How long is it working as expected? How quiet and reliable is normal operation? I think we could make some interesting list here... For one, I already looked at Planar heaters but they are infinior to brand names mostly due to all the problems with carbon deposits with low power settings which is very well known. The price is not that much lower so it's questionable at least if it's worth all the hassle with disassembling, cleaning etc. The unit can not be easily used just for summer ventilation which is standard option with brand names (no fire, just vent). The pump is also rather noisy, no automatic shut-down... I looked also at this Chinese heater branded from Heatspace NZ. It looks like exact copy of webasto/eberspacher etc... (they all do!) except this guy said he actually hand picked it from this swamp of cheap heaters. Certainly needs more look-in. And then, there is Wallas. A bit of complicated approach with 2 air inlets (some recycled air from cabins and some from outside to keep moisture at more or less right spot), multiple hot air outlets (at least two) with different temps of air to provide more distant parts of boat with hotter air and vice versa, intelligent control unit etc. There is also long record of use at sea so... On the down-side no long term use (live aboard which we are not - yet!), no long time heeling (admiral doesn't want that anyway), more complicated ducting in already tight space, mandatory use of magnetic fuel valve (we have additional fuel tank in starboard locker behind aft bulkhead where fuel level can be higher than heater), more costly solution... Decisions, decisions, decisions...   *edit: Webasto is ruled out due to bad reviews lately and very high cost servicing. Wallas on the other hand has record of working without glitch for decade or so... (casual use) |
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Post by Trevor on Nov 10, 2019 1:11:18 GMT
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Post by fakinx on Nov 11, 2019 9:26:13 GMT
Thanks Trevor, I got it. Document suggests EVO 55 (5kW continuous power) but I think I'll stick to 4kW. We hardly (if ever) use front bathroom and cabin but when guests are on board there are always some options...
Next issue, ducting.
I'm considering using an insulated pipes (at least to the front) so how difficult is to exchange already laid webasto duct behind the galley? Applying insulation sleeve over original pipe on-site seems difficult at least if not impossible. Has anybody replaced this pipe with new one?
All the best!
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Post by pagoda54 on Nov 13, 2019 21:33:49 GMT
Our 42i has the same hull layout, and original Webasto ducting. I think it would be seriously hard work changing the ducting as it is secured in various inaccessible places. Easy when the boat was building.... but not any more!
Perhaps somebody has tried this?
Graeme
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