Yachts 51 standing rigging problems

[jy51]

Having recently just completed our first major shakedown cruise with our new 51 (in mast furling and genoa) a number of issues have arisen regarding the standing rigging and sails.

Firstly I believe the tension on the rigging is far too loose, I understand that rigging wire will stretch and will need re-tensioning, however, not after a few weeks sailing in mostly moderate winds.

Sailing in 12 to 18 knots of wind the leeward mid diagonal shroud, between the upper and lower spreaders is so loose that the fittings rattle and the loose wire seems to have about 20 mm + sideway movement, at the same time the induced mast lean leaves the headsail luff so loose that it will not set.    

We also have a number of issues with the mainsail, one being the roach or curve of the leech which seems far too straight and tight. Looking up at the mast we don’t seem to have any prebend, which I believe would cure the roach problem.

So, a question to all 51 yacht owners, with in mast furling, has your mast some prebend and should it?  I appreciate that too much prebend with in mast reefing is not desirable as it not only creates trimming problems but would make reefing difficult. Incidentally we did not order the option of a backstay tensioner, maybe I should have?

Lastly we have a problem with the mainsail, we first noticed a large crease appear about one meter up from the foot and when fully extending the sail, the last meter of luff is loose and allows the edge of the sail and foot to exit the mast causing a fold that stops the sail from being furled back into the mast. The obvious reason would be a loose halyard, however it is very tight. Another reason could be a jam that is stopping the halyard from fully raising and tensioning the sail or lastly the sail could have been cut too big. I would be interested to hear if anyone has other ideas or similar problems.

Although we are waiting for a rigger to have a look and hopefully correct the problems, I do like to be involved and hear other peoples views and opinions, being aware of the problem and observe how it is rectified helps us to understand our boats better.

[ania]

Here's our port shroud before we had it adjusted 

[jdl01]

It sounds like the commissioning yard just dropped the rig in and said 'good enough'. Bringing in a rigger is the right choice. To get value out if this, he or she should examine the rig under load [sailing] as well as at the dock. Even mass produced sails can prove to be misshaped. As step two, after the rigger I would bring in a sailmaker from a trusted loft to see the sails when under way. As there will be bills to be paid, get written assessments from both professionals and if there appears to be mistakes from the factory or the commissioning yard, ask your broker to refund the outlays as well as fix the problems. Even if you are performance oriented, stick with the existing [maybe recut] factory sails for a year or two. Jeanneau is unlikely to offer you any significant value for them since they left the factory. After a year or two you should know your boat's sailing characteristics and thus you can offer meaningful input to your sailmaker when they design and build you a better suit of sails. Good luck with this; I envy you your boat.

[Zanshin]

I had loose D1 and D2 on both my Jeanenau 49DS and J57; something a good rigger can quickly detect and fix and that will prevent bad sail shape and perhaps even dangerous pumping in higher winds.

[briar]

You should have a rigger look at the rig if your concerned. But when looking at loose D’s you should also be looking up the windward side of the mast from deck level whilst sailing to windward. The mast should fall away to leeward in a nice curve. Image if your d’s are too tight the mast won’t bend smoothly and the D will be holding the mast to windward at that point. This point would be exerting extra load on the D’s and could cause issues or failures.

briar

[johannes]

Seldén has a good rigging guide on their web site:

www.seldenmast.com/files/595-540-E.pdf

We northerners who unstep/step the mast every season have to tension the rigg every year. The "2-metre rule" method is good for measuring the shroud tension. The cap shrouds should be tensioned to the amount appropriate for the rig type. Then, when sailing and the boat heels about 20 degrees, the mid and lower shrouds should be tensioned sufficiently to keep the mast straight.

A backstay tensioner is good even for a masthead rig. With a masthead rig, there is not much trimming of the mainsail that can be done with the backstay, but it gives two advantages:

1. Some trimming ability of the headsail. In light winds, a slight slack in the forestay opens up the headsail. In stronger winds, a straight forestay gives better pointing ability.

2. You can release tension on  the backstay when not sailing. If the backstay is constantly under high tension, there will be deformation of the hull over time.

[Syrah]

Re your question on prebend:
We were experiencing problems with our vertically battened mainsail getting jammed at the top of the mast when pulling it out. The number one thing that fixed this was getting a rigger to remove the prebend in the mast. A straight mast will work best.

[ania]

This is what our jib looks like, can't get those creases out no matter how hard we pull the jib halyard, any ideas?

[Don Reaves]

I had the same problem with my jib until I lowered the tack, which was an easy change to make.

[ania]

Cant’t visualize the tack, not on the boat today, it’s possible to lower it?

[sitara]

Maybe the splice/knot attaching the halyard to the jib is too big/long and is getting jammed in the top sheave. I assume you raise the job with no wind in the sail. Unlikely but the sail could be too big ie the luff too long.

[jy51]

Jun 4, 2019 19:54:44 GMT ania said:

This is what our jib looks like, can't get those creases out no matter how hard we pull the jib halyard, any ideas?

Ania,

Your photo is identical to how our boat looked before we called in a rigger.

I am no expert in these matters but the rigger was, he has a best selling book published in Spain on how to tension and trim rigging and sails. He said our problems were due to a number of issues.

He tensioned the diagonals, mains and backstay, this introduced the correct amount and curve of pre bend, while tightening up the foresail stay.

After this process you will need to loosen the genoa halyard ever so slightly to remove the stress creases.

With the problem of the foot and webbing strop protruding from the mast grove, which I thought was a jammed halyard leaving the last meter loose or possibly the sail cut to big, he simply lowered the sail and raised it with the topping lift tighter holding the boom just above the horizontal and loosened the main to allow the boom to swing. He said the weight of the boom was introducing uneven stress on the last part of the sail that doesn’t enter the foil groove. We still have a number of small diagonal creases in the sail but not as bad as before and he said they will fall out within time. He said each time you furl the main in or out keep the boom up and the main slack, I have now marked my topping lift to show the correct height which is difficult to judge from under the bimini while sailing.

Just a quick question before I go? Is your photo back to front?  Your two main halyards seem to be on the starboard side of the mast, the opposite to mine.  I'm a little confused as Jeanneau fit the halyard winch on the port side of the cockpit or are they up-hauls for a pole or a cruising chute halyard.

[Syrah]

Hi Ania,

We had the same problem with our headsail. I had the local sailmaker make some minor adjustments and it fixed the problem. It was quite a low cost fix.

[ania]

Jun 5, 2019 6:47:47 GMT jy51 said:

Jun 4, 2019 19:54:44 GMT ania said:

This is what our jib looks like, can't get those creases out no matter how hard we pull the jib halyard, any ideas?

Ania,

Your photo is identical to how our boat looked before we called in a rigger.

I am no expert in these matters but the rigger was, he has a best selling book published in Spain on how to tension and trim rigging and sails. He said our problems were due to a number of issues.

He tensioned the diagonals, mains and backstay, this introduced the correct amount and curve of pre bend, while tightening up the foresail stay.

After this process you will need to loosen the genoa halyard ever so slightly to remove the stress creases.

With the problem of the foot and webbing strop protruding from the mast grove, which I thought was a jammed halyard leaving the last meter loose or possibly the sail cut to big, he simply lowered the sail and raised it with the topping lift tighter holding the boom just above the horizontal and loosened the main to allow the boom to swing. He said the weight of the boom was introducing uneven stress on the last part of the sail that doesn’t enter the foil groove. We still have a number of small diagonal creases in the sail but not as bad as before and he said they will fall out within time. He said each time you furl the main in or out keep the boom up and the main slack, I have now marked my topping lift to show the correct height which is difficult to judge from under the bimini while sailing.

Just a quick question before I go? Is your photo back to front?  Your two main halyards seem to be on the starboard side of the mast, the opposite to mine.  I'm a little confused as Jeanneau fit the halyard winch on the port side of the cockpit or are they up-hauls for a pole or a cruising chute halyard.

Yeah, its a starboard side. Red line is a code zero hazard and blue is for the asymmetrical spinnaker.
That Code zero is a whole new problem furling it with Harken Reflex 3.

[SeaDarer]

I recently purchased a new JY51 and it has exactly the same sail issues.  The plans discussed in this thread are extremely helpful.  

[rene460]

Hi Seadarer, congratulations on your new boat and welcome to the forum.  As you have already found, there is a wealth of ideas in the previous posts and they are well worth browsing through on winter evenings.  And it’s great to have you on board.

By the way, where in Canada is Van Isle?  You have so many great waterways there.

rene460