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Post by alenka on Feb 26, 2019 15:25:33 GMT
Hoppy, I don't think the CA or the RYA are happy about spending money on lawyers at this stage as everything is so up in the air.
It would be easy for the UK HMRC to simply say you all have grandfather rights and can re-import back into the UK with no VAT owing no matter how long you remain in EU waters.... But. Actually it is a big BUT. HMRC have never been known to make life simple, either because they like the idea of extra revenue or because uncertainty is a good excuse for empire building!
The CA were hopeful that they would receive details regarding fines or otherwise for late registration (beyond April 10th) for the Greek tax but so far nothing.
People that have already contacted their local PP to enquire have been told that no instructions have been issued to them as yet.
Just as a safeguard I have already booked flights out their to cover this period. A wasted return ticket is cheaper than a €1200 fine.
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Post by vasko on Feb 27, 2019 15:09:42 GMT
My plan is from 10th of April to work for a week on my boat in Nidri and will leave th boat document in PP to avoid paying the tax when on hard till end may
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 1, 2019 18:51:02 GMT
New CA newsletter says: Confirmation from EU Commission on Brexit-day impact UK-based vessels to lose EU VAT-paid status"The RATS team has received confirmation that when the UK leaves the EU, the EU Commission will regard all yachts based in UK-waters as losing their EU VAT-paid status. This confirmation is consistent with the advice which has been provided by the RYA since
mid-January 2019.
The EU Commission has said to the Cruising Association that “after the UK’s withdrawal from the EU or the end of the transition period in case a Withdrawal Agreement with a transition period is concluded, in general, any goods in the customs territory of the UK will lose their Union status and will become UK goods,” and that “The customs status of a UK boat will depend on its location at that point in time: if the boat is located in an EU port or sails in EU territorial waters, it will keep its Union status; if the boat is located in the UK, its status will be that of a third-country boat when arriving in the territorial waters of the Union, i.e. it will be treated as non-Union goods. Customs controls for such UK boats will be the same as for boats coming from a third country”.
The implications for owners of UK-based yachts are considerable:
Once UK-based yachts lose EU-VAT paid status, VAT will be payable to the country of entry into the EU if a yacht does not have the
benefit of the EU Temporary Importation rules. In general, these allow a non-EU based yacht to spend up to 18 months in the EU
before VAT becomes payable.
If owners of UK-based yachts are likely to want to locate the yachts in the EU 27 in the longer term, they may wish to locate their yachts in an EU-27 port on Brexit day in order to retain EU VAT paid status.
Obviously, marina receipts and other evidence of the yacht’s location (for example, dated photographs and
insurance certificates stating the yacht’s home location) could potentially be helpful."More info available from the CA for members - Well WORTH JOINING - YOU CAN GET 25% DISCOUNT IN OUR DISCOUNT SECTION
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Post by hoppy on Mar 2, 2019 13:05:13 GMT
So as I expected, the VAT paid status will remain. No need to have anything other than the UK SSR....
I guess if you boat is currently in Turkey, you better plan to get it to Greece for the Brexit date..
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Post by vasko on Mar 2, 2019 14:36:25 GMT
The problem is how to prove that the boat ash been in EU... my guess is that up-to date DEKPA should be enough - not sure that I will get a invoice from the yard where my boat is
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 2, 2019 17:30:53 GMT
So as I expected, the VAT paid status will remain. No need to have anything other than the UK SSR.... I guess if you boat is currently in Turkey, you better plan to get it to Greece for the Brexit date.. Equally if you are in the UK then need to get across to an EU country at least by that date...whenever that might be....
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Post by hoppy on Mar 2, 2019 22:44:08 GMT
So as I expected, the VAT paid status will remain. No need to have anything other than the UK SSR.... I guess if you boat is currently in Turkey, you better plan to get it to Greece for the Brexit date.. Equally if you are in the UK then need to get across to an EU country at least by that date...whenever that might be.... but that is only necessary if you want to move your boat to the med...
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Post by hoppy on Mar 2, 2019 22:50:16 GMT
The problem is how to prove that the boat ash been in EU... my guess is that up-to date DEKPA should be enough - not sure that I will get a invoice from the yard where my boat is There is never too much proof when it comes to Greece. I'd ask for an invoice
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Post by hoppy on Mar 2, 2019 22:58:21 GMT
Anyway, for those of you with your boats already in the EU, the Brexit looks like it will be a minor inconvenience as far as your boats are concerned.
However, you do need to see what the UK Government will do about maintaining your UK VAT status for when you return to the UK.
The biggest issue you might have will be your own access to the EU if you spend more than 3 months of the summer cruising. A no deal Brexit will mean you will require a Schengen visa and it's stupid ill thought out limitations.
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 2, 2019 23:28:11 GMT
Equally if you are in the UK then need to get across to an EU country at least by that date...whenever that might be.... but that is only necessary if you want to move your boat to the med... Or the Baltic or the inland waterways of Europe or the Atlantic coast of France too...certainly the impact is much more than just those going to the Med....
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Post by jy51 on Mar 10, 2019 16:53:25 GMT
I don’t think all this talk of U.K. flagged boats in EU waters is a problem as long as the VAT was paid whilst we were still EU members.
Anyone purchasing a new boat after we leave will probably have to pay the VAT twice if the boat is commissioned in the U.K. and then used in EU waters, as I do not think, and there is no reason to believe the EU would recognise a tax, called by any name, and levied outside of the EU. I assume the way around this would be to purchase any new boat in Europe and pay EU VAT if you wish to sail the boat in European waters. This could, of course lead to Country of registration problem.
No, the really big problem as hoppy pointed out will be for U.K. passport holders who will become none EU citizens. Brussels have already granted the U.K. visa free entry but that is under Schengen rules. Basically this means a one time entry for a maximum of 90 days in any one 180 day period. No more picking and choosing different weekends on the boat for those that still have to work for a living. If you visit at Easter for a long weekend in April you will not be able to return until the 180 day period has finished, that means your next visit will be in September after the summer break. Those retirees, will from Brexit day only visit for a max 90 days so no more long summers on the boat.
Multi entry is possible under Schengen rules but will require a visa which will be costly and time consuming to organise and still only allow the holder to tot up a maximum of 90 days in 180 days.
if you keep and sail your boat in any EU Country the only way to maintain the freedom that you have experienced as a EU citizen will be to apply for residency in that Country. Unfortunately I believe Brexit will destroy any ambition to keep and sail a boat in the Mediterranean for U.K. citizens.
As drastic as it sounds I have chosen to take up French residency to enable me to visit and sail my boat whenever I wish. With a U.K. passport I can return to the U.K. at will but the French residency allows me to sail all the summer and gain the maximum enjoyment from my new boat.
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Post by johannes on Mar 20, 2019 11:22:33 GMT
Under the normal Schengen visa waiver rules, multiple entries are allowed during the 180 day period as long as the total number of days does not exceed 90. For example, a lot of Americans travel to Schengen without visa many times during a given 6 month period with no problem. It will be the same for UK citizens.
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Post by alenka on Mar 20, 2019 21:49:08 GMT
I don’t think all this talk of U.K. flagged boats in EU waters is a problem as long as the VAT was paid whilst we were still EU members. Logically you are correct.... Has anyone seen any logic in these proceedings? Now, here is a thought. If all the boats in Jersey register on the SSR to look British (mainland) and dash over to France on the day in question are they all suddenly classed as VAT paid in the EU???
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Post by fakinx on Mar 20, 2019 22:18:31 GMT
I actually feel sorry for British. But it’s your choice and you’re entitled to it no doubt about it. It’s happening right the opposite of what happened when Croatia became EU and our boats were ‘caught’ there and suddenly became EU goods (if flying Croatian flag). A LOT (!) of paper work, stupid small costs, disinformation... Some people took one road others something different. It was very hard to prove EU VAT paid for boats with different flags than Cro. That meant all flags except CRO were checked for VAT status. T2L is of utmost importance to have along with proper exit within 18 months after brexit from EU waters for at least one night. Then you’re good for another 18 months upon next entry. That’s of course for third country (Britain) flag only. If you currently fly any other EU flag yoll good. Oh, and with EU goods status you’re allowed to be ‘missing’ for 3 years from EU waters. After that all is lost and VAT payable again. Go figure.... The 90 days rule remains But you can always obtain visa.... Yes, it’s gonna be HUGE change REAL FAST*. Just my 2 cents.
edit: *in case of a hard brexit. In any other case there will be protocol or international treaty. Why the hell you chose that path I’ll never understand.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 21, 2019 9:52:51 GMT
Under the normal Schengen visa waiver rules, multiple entries are allowed during the 180 day period as long as the total number of days does not exceed 90. For example, a lot of Americans travel to Schengen without visa many times during a given 6 month period with no problem. It will be the same for UK citizens. I would disagree with your interpretation. I have read much of the Schengen Agreement, and although it could be said that some of it is contradictory, however, explain to me why they have 4 types of entry; (1) a visa entry (2) a visa free entry (3) a visa double entry and lastly (4) a multi entry visa. Every one of these entry systems have the same 90/180 day ruling. I too have American friends that have come many times over the last ten years and have flaunted the rules by overstaying, but in the end they were caught out by an observant Swiss boarder guard who sat down for ten minutes and toted up each date stamp then refused them entry to Europe. After Brexit there will be lots of confusion and people will get away with multi entries and overstaying but when the new ETIAS computerised system comes into force in 2020 it will be the end, no more individual boarder guards turning a blind eye, every passport will be scanned and on the data base they will know when you arrived, how long you stayed and when you left, if you have broken the rule it will be flagged up and either a fine or banned entry, its that simple.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 21, 2019 9:57:35 GMT
I don’t think all this talk of U.K. flagged boats in EU waters is a problem as long as the VAT was paid whilst we were still EU members. Logically you are correct.... Has anyone seen any logic in these proceedings? Now, here is a thought. If all the boats in Jersey register on the SSR to look British (mainland) and dash over to France on the day in question are they all suddenly classed as VAT paid in the EU??? Jersey is not a part of the EU and have their own fiscal system, VAT is not payable on Jersey registered boat even though they are SSR registered and fly red ensigns. I have friends from Jersey who keep their boat in Spain, to get around the none VAT paid status they have the Spanish authorities put the boat in locked and sealed none usable bonding for six months of the year. Also my comment on not being a problem relates to the boats currently in the EU zone. I understand from a friend based in a Spanish marina that there is a lot of activity with boats arriving daily from the UK to get around the VAT statues problem, but I don't believe the owners realise the bigger problem they will have as non EU citizens.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 21, 2019 10:04:50 GMT
I actually feel sorry for British. But it’s your choice and you’re entitled to it no doubt about it. It’s happening right the opposite of what happened when Croatia became EU and our boats were ‘caught’ there and suddenly became EU goods (if flying Croatian flag). A LOT (!) of paper work, stupid small costs, disinformation... Some people took one road others something different. It was very hard to prove EU VAT paid for boats with different flags than Cro. That meant all flags except CRO were checked for VAT status. T2L is of utmost importance to have along with proper exit within 18 months after brexit from EU waters for at least one night. Then you’re good for another 18 months upon next entry. That’s of course for third country (Britain) flag only. If you currently fly any other EU flag yoll good. Oh, and with EU goods status you’re allowed to be ‘missing’ for 3 years from EU waters. After that all is lost and VAT payable again. Go figure.... The 90 days rule remains But you can always obtain visa.... Yes, it’s gonna be HUGE change REAL FAST*. Just my 2 cents. edit: *in case of a hard brexit. In any other case there will be protocol or international treaty. Why the hell you chose that path I’ll never understand. You say the 90 day remains but you can always obtain a visa, what visa? I have already outlined the statues of UK passport holders after Brexit, visa or no visa, 90 days in each 180 is the limit, that is it, that is the freedom of movement we are giving away. The only true way to continue as before is to take up residency (if possible) in the Country where you sail, although the 90/180 day rule will apply to any other Country you visit in Europe with your British none EU passport. This will put stop to long term cruising of the Med.
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Post by johannes on Mar 21, 2019 15:33:36 GMT
This is from an official EU website about visa-free entry: "3. Can I enter the Schengen area more than one time during that period? Yes, you can. However you must carefully calculate your days of stay as the overall period of stay must not exceed the overall total of 90 (ninety) days of stay within any 180-days period (see above)." I don't think it is up for interpretation, it is very clear that multi entry is allowed. Also, all available information on the coming ETIAS says that it will be unlimited number of entries as long as the 180/90 rule is fulfilled. The four types of entry are not contradictory: (1) Single-entry visa. This is for travellers from non-visa-free countries who wish to only enter once in a 180-day period. (2) Visa free entry for travellers from countries on the visa waiver list, including eg. USA. There is no limit on the number of entries per 180 day period. This would be the rule for UK citizens post-brexit. (3) Double entry visa. This is for travellers from non-visa-free countries who wish to enter twice in a 180-day period. (4) Multiple entry visa. This is for travellers from non-visa-free countries who wish to enter an unlimited number of times in a 180-day period. There are a number of possible reasons why your American friends were denied entry in Switzerland, eg., having overstayed on a previous 180 day period, failed to have their passport stamped on the way home the previous time, not showing sufficient funds for the stay, not showing a return ticket, the border guard had a suspicion that they would overstay or do illegal work, their passport had too short expiry date, etc.
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Post by vasko on Mar 21, 2019 15:54:50 GMT
Generally if you are really thinking of staying more then 90 days every 180 days - there you should consider residency in EU country - it actually means that you live more there then in UK - e.g. some of the EU countries have better tax deals
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Post by jy51 on Mar 21, 2019 16:18:09 GMT
This is from an official EU website about visa-free entry: "3. Can I enter the Schengen area more than one time during that period? Yes, you can. However you must carefully calculate your days of stay as the overall period of stay must not exceed the overall total of 90 (ninety) days of stay within any 180-days period (see above)." I don't think it is up for interpretation, it is very clear that multi entry is allowed. Also, all available information on the coming ETIAS says that it will be unlimited number of entries as long as the 180/90 rule is fulfilled. The four types of entry are not contradictory: (1) Single-entry visa. This is for travellers from non-visa-free countries who wish to only enter once in a 180-day period. (2) Visa free entry for travellers from countries on the visa waiver list, including eg. USA. There is no limit on the number of entries per 180 day period. This would be the rule for UK citizens post-brexit. (3) Double entry visa. This is for travellers from non-visa-free countries who wish to enter twice in a 180-day period. (4) Multiple entry visa. This is for travellers from non-visa-free countries who wish to enter an unlimited number of times in a 180-day period. There are a number of possible reasons why your American friends were denied entry in Switzerland, eg., having overstayed on a previous 180 day period, failed to have their passport stamped on the way home the previous time, not showing sufficient funds for the stay, not showing a return ticket, the border guard had a suspicion that they would overstay or do illegal work, their passport had too short expiry date, etc. I hope you are right, it will make it easier on those wishing to come and go on short weekends or different holiday periods without having to apply for a multi visa and all the problems involved. Although, I do think it's a little unfair of you to say your answer is not open to interpretation because you have read it on an internet site. I am not a lawyer, but am aware that many things are open to interpretation as I have read conflicting stories on the internet and in the UK press. I have read the Council of the European Union proceedings regarding the UK leaving and ceasing rights to free movement and the offer of visa free entry for short stays. No reference is made of a further concession to multi entry. You might be right and it could be contained in the original act that offers visa free entry but I have not yet found an official reference to it. However, our disagreement is irrelevant whether it means multi access by default or by applying for a multi entry visa the problem doesn't change. Once the Brits become non EU passport holders they are restricted to 90 days in and 90 days out in every 180 day period. Previously we could stay in any one Schengen or EU Country for up to 181 days before having to register as a resident, meaning we could, more or less, come and go and move around as we pleased as long as we didn't overstay our welcome in any one Country, that is considerably different than what is in store for the British after Brexit.
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Post by jy51 on Mar 21, 2019 17:09:17 GMT
Generally if you are really thinking of staying more then 90 days every 180 days - there you should consider residency in EU country - it actually means that you live more there then in UK - e.g. some of the EU countries have better tax deals Vasko, that is all very well if you can get residency, which was a right that came with EU membership and will now cease. Applying for residency in an EU country for non EU passport holders is not impossible, but will become a lot more complicated. My own French residency application was made while an EU member but still it has been a slow long climb through French bureaucracy involving over 7 hours total queuing at immigration to receive a temporary card, and six weeks later I am still waiting for my first yearly residency card.
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Post by vasko on Mar 21, 2019 18:50:25 GMT
Generally if you are really thinking of staying more then 90 days every 180 days - there you should consider residency in EU country - it actually means that you live more there then in UK - e.g. some of the EU countries have better tax deals Vasko, that is all very well if you can get residency, which was a right that came with EU membership and will now cease. Applying for residency in an EU country for non EU passport holders is not impossible, but will become a lot more complicated. My own French residency application was made while an EU member but still it has been a slow long climb through French bureaucracy involving over 7 hours total queuing at immigration to receive a temporary card, and six weeks later I am still waiting for my first yearly residency card. but in the end you will get it some countries are good for residency - e.g. Bulgarian tax for example is about 15% in the end on companies...
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Post by fakinx on Mar 21, 2019 20:06:21 GMT
You say the 90 day remains but you can always obtain a visa, what visa? This for instance... There are options other than suggested but it takes time and money. Some EU countries are "selling" citizenship (Portugal, Malta...). I'd rather not talk about of some more shady variants of staying over 90 days but it's possible. The down side of some option is you become "locked" with your guest country. Best way is still citizenship of EU remaining country. Like I said, I'll never understand this.
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Post by alenka on Mar 21, 2019 22:11:44 GMT
JY51,
Could it be that you are taking my comments a little too seriously?
I am fully aware of the situation re the Channel islands. My wife lived in Jersey for many years I also worked for a Jersey company for some time. Our first boat was based out there on the Guernsey register! You fly a defaced ensign for boats registered in the CI not a standard red ensign.
My tongue in cheek comment was taking what the EU have said to a new dimension. Will all boats British boats in EU waters really be given VAT paid status on BREXIT day? And how would they do it? I cannot imagine the PP in Greece running around handing out VAT certificates.
The 90 days in 180 rule is going to be a real pain for British cruising folk wanting to cover many countries in the Med on an extended cruise. Ironically a British chap (on a half million pound yacht which they live on all summer long) was leaping up and down in delight when the result was announced. I wonder if he thinks it might be a bit of a home goal now??
Maybe the saving grace in Greece is that they will probably never get around to computerising passport control. They cannot even introduce the new cruising tax on time because their website still isn't working. They've only been on with it about five years though.
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Post by hoppy on Mar 22, 2019 2:53:44 GMT
The 90 days in 180 rule is going to be a real pain for British cruising folk wanting to cover many countries in the Med on an extended cruise. Ironically a British chap (on a half million pound yacht which they live on all summer long) was leaping up and down in delight when the result was announced. I wonder if he thinks it might be a bit of a home goal now?? It's the same issue that Aussie, Kiwi, American, Canadian and many other nationalities have been dealing with for so long. The Schengen Visa is really a dumb arse system with it's 90 in 180 days rule. Given that tourism is such a massive industry for Europe, it does not economically make sense. The UK and Ireland have probably benefited from the Schengen stupidity as it ensured that many long term travellers spend a lot of time there waiting for 90 days to be reset.
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