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Post by vasko on Nov 24, 2018 22:05:14 GMT
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Post by alenka on Nov 27, 2018 19:14:47 GMT
Actually, the tax was supposed to be implemented on November 16th this year with fines for anyone who hadn't paid by the 26th of November.
Unfortunately, yet again, another classic of one Greek department acting without the knowledge of another. After very strong protests from the Cruising Association its implementation has been deferred until April 2020 and payment is likely to available via electronic means. It as also transpired that the taxing of foreign registered/owned boats in Greek waters was never really on the agenda but that somehow got distorted between two ministerial factions.
There is still much work to be done to ensure innocent cruising folk are not fined because of over zealous officials.
Anyone with an interest in cruising this area or indeed any area would do well to consider joining the CA. The membership discounts often gained in marinas, etc., tend to outweigh the membership fee.
They do a great job but they need your support!
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Post by hoppy on Nov 27, 2018 21:12:38 GMT
LOL LOL LOL The Greeks really are hopeless....
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Post by MalcolmP on Nov 27, 2018 21:23:43 GMT
,..... Anyone with an interest in cruising this area or indeed any area would do well to consider joining the CA. The membership discounts often gained in marinas, etc., tend to outweigh the membership fee. They do a great job but they need your support! Jeanneau owners can also get 25% off first year fee here: www.jeanneau-owners.com/discounts.html
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Post by jy51 on Nov 28, 2018 15:11:20 GMT
They mention a transit log for non EU boats (us Brits after April 1st 2019) what a palaver! Will we be faced with this everywhere we go after Brexit, I hope not!
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Post by alenka on Nov 28, 2018 15:39:10 GMT
Consensus of opinion is that the post over simplifies the situation. I have just read through the CA's initial reaction and counter proposals to the Greek Ministries and they are aimed at no-one being fined in the first year of this tax introduction; Mainly because the tax will kick in before many flights to the area begin, so making it impossible to visit port police in April.
Setting up a system of e-payment is also proving difficult for the Greeks so don't bank on this as a get of jail card!
Thanks again to Malcolm for setting up the introductory 25% discount. Give the CA a try and you will be surprised at the help and support you can get when away from home port.
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Post by alenka on Feb 22, 2019 12:25:11 GMT
This has just been issued by a Greek marina and is the best indication of the current status on this tax. It is around four years since this tax first raised its head and the arguments are on-going. By no means 100% certain that it will be introduced, but best be aware of the fines for late registration. The CA are petitioning for no fines to be levied this year for late registration provided it is completed at the time of boat launch. www.23hq.com/Alenka43ds/photo/51886021/original
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sailingabsea
Junior Member
Cruising the Mediterranean
Posts: 16
Jeanneau Model: Sun Odyssey 45.1
Yacht Name: A B Sea
Home Port: Wherever we drop anchor
Country: Australia/UK
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sailingabsea/
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Post by sailingabsea on Feb 22, 2019 13:06:27 GMT
Hmmmm... Watching this develop as we plan to leave Turkish waters somewhere around May/June 2019 and stay in Greek waters for almost a year.
It's disappointing that more and more countries are taxing liveaboard private yacht owners away from their waters.
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Post by vasko on Feb 23, 2019 6:29:31 GMT
It seems lately that the Brexit date will be moved to some point in summer which will put us in a strange situation that our boats will become from EU vesselto non-EU one. Any one have any idea how we will need to handle DEKPA , TEOAH etc. then ?
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Post by alenka on Feb 23, 2019 9:05:51 GMT
Don't mention the B word Logic would dictate that when or if we leave the EU we also lose our freedom to come and go as we please in Europe and 'may' be limited by the 90 day Schengen rule. Equally, our boats 'may' be restricted to the 18 month rule (VAT regulations) when flying a UK ensign and in an EU country. In Greece (as it stands) you could apply for a visa to stay longer than 90 days in 180; And by nipping either to Turkey or Albania for a night re-set the clock on the boat. The DEKPA would probably become null and void and we would need a Transit Log. Just like American, Canadian, Australian, Kiwi boats. If the Cruising Tax does go ahead on the 2nd of April and Brexit on the 29th March my guess is the Port Police in Greece will go into meltdown.
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Post by vasko on Feb 23, 2019 14:56:22 GMT
Stricktly speaking our boats are currently all with EU VAT paid status and if they do not leave EU for more then 2 years they should keep this status - e.g. all boats which are in EU waters and leave only for short period should not be subject of the 18months rule.
Altought I have no idea how to explain this to Greek authorities ..,at this stage my plan is to renew my dekpa always on time to use it as a proof that my boat is in EU waters as I do not plan to bring the boat back to UK e.g UK VAT status is not interesting in my case
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Post by Mistroma on Feb 23, 2019 19:00:10 GMT
Vasko, I obtained a T2L declaration because of this issue. Some people say it won't be required and others say the T2L isn't designed for this purpose. However, it takes a few minutes to complete and cost is 2 stamps. I couldn't see any reason not to get one before HMRC get swamped.
It should provide some proof that your boat was of EU origin and in the EU prior to Brexit. It isn't really a proof of VAT payment but should help avoid having to take the boat out of the EU within 18 months allowed for "Temporary Importation" of third country vessels (i.e. UK immediately after Brexit if no deal).
I can post detailed instructions if you are interested for any reason. I scanned my original paper form and turned it into a PDF form with dropdown to select correct code and help text to explain how to fill it in.
I used the PDF version to submit my own C88(Status) form for T2L and can post a link if anyone thinks it might be of any use.
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Post by alenka on Feb 23, 2019 22:13:37 GMT
Mistroma sums up what is developing into a VAT headache. If we crash out of the EU with no deal then the EU does not have to recognise our VAT paid status. After all we shall no longer be part of the EU.
Equally, HMRC have given no indication as to whether our VAT paid status will be valid after spending two yeas or more in EU waters following Brexit. They could treat us in the same way that they treat boats returning from prolonged stays in the Caribbean... VAT is payable again!
I for one would be very grateful to see your PDF on sorting out the T2L.
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 23, 2019 22:33:26 GMT
Mistroma sums up what is developing into a VAT headache. If we crash out of the EU with no deal then the EU does not have to recognise our VAT paid status. After all we shall no longer be part of the EU. Equally, HMRC have given no indication as to whether our VAT paid status will be valid after spending two yeas or more in EU waters following Brexit. They could treat us in the same way that they treat boats returning from prolonged stays in the Caribbean... VAT is payable again! I for one would be very grateful to see your PDF on sorting out the T2L. Yes indeed, headache is the least of it. I obtained the T2L a couple of years ago as a bit of a fall back www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/Pages/t2l.aspx not at all sure how much it will help though, but it is free and every bit of documentation may have a value. The CA and RYA unsurprisingly in the chaos of Brexit only give very bland comments. The fate of a few Brits with perceived high value Yachts is not likely to be at the forefront of any politicians or civil servants concerns now or in the near future. Vasko and I have exchanged messages before about registering our boats elsewhere in the EU. jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/6347/changing-flag-post-brexitAfter all many ships use flags of convenience and this is very separate to the nationality of the owner. As some will know I rightly or wrongly jumped a couple of years ago and ditched UK SSR and have currently chosen Sweden to register as it is simple and cheap for boats less than 12m and my wife who now has Irish nationality is the registered owner. Far from perfect though and having problems getting MMSI and call sign. I may have to shift again to Netherlands, but far from cheap and still no guarantee that VAT paid in 2008 will be honoured...
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Post by vasko on Feb 24, 2019 6:33:37 GMT
Mistroma sums up what is developing into a VAT headache. If we crash out of the EU with no deal then the EU does not have to recognise our VAT paid status. After all we shall no longer be part of the EU. Equally, HMRC have given no indication as to whether our VAT paid status will be valid after spending two yeas or more in EU waters following Brexit. They could treat us in the same way that they treat boats returning from prolonged stays in the Caribbean... VAT is payable again! I for one would be very grateful to see your PDF on sorting out the T2L. Yes indeed, headache is the least of it. I obtained the T2L a couple of years ago as a bit of a fall back www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/boating-abroad/Pages/t2l.aspx not at all sure how much it will help though, but it is free and every bit of documentation may have a value. The CA and RYA unsurprisingly in the chaos of Brexit only give very bland comments. The fate of a few Brits with perceived high value Yachts is not likely to be at the forefront of any politicians or civil servants concerns now or in the near future. Vasko and I have exchanged messages before about registering our boats elsewhere in the EU. jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/6347/changing-flag-post-brexitAfter all many ships use flags of convenience and this is very separate to the nationality of the owner. As some will know I rightly or wrongly jumped a couple of years ago and ditched UK SSR and have currently chosen Sweden to register as it is simple and cheap for boats less than 12m and my wife who now has Irish nationality is the registered owner. Far from perfect though and having problems getting MMSI and call sign. I may have to shift again to Netherlands, but far from cheap and still no guarantee that VAT paid in 2008 will be honoured... Re EU registration - it isn’t working anymore as you can get a regustration still but the later dicuments clearly state NO FLAG - e.g you can have a registration but you cannot fly the Dutch or Swedish or Belgian etc flag if you are NOT permanent resident of the respective country - they imagine something like Dutch registration but still flying the country ir residence flag..,. And the Greek authorities know it from this year. ( Dutch tegistration was widely used but not anymore)
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 24, 2019 9:54:59 GMT
Re EU registration - it isn’t working anymore as you can get a regustration still but the later dicuments clearly state NO FLAG - e.g you can have a registration but you cannot fly the Dutch or Swedish or Belgian etc flag if you are NOT permanent resident of the respective country - they imagine something like Dutch registration but still flying the country ir residence flag..,. And the Greek authorities know it from this year. ( Dutch tegistration was widely used but not anymore) Yes it does seem that the ICP (International Certificate for Pleasure Craft) documents are being changed following an incident last year with a Dutch flagged ship with migrants. My Swedish ICP that expires Nov 2019 currently does not have any reference about the rights to fly a flag or otherwise, but I am now guessing that will likely change as it has recently with the Dutch issued ICP documents So looks like I may have to revert to SSR and continue face the consequences that all UK vessels will have, not doubt they will be especially bad if we crash out with no deal at all..... On the upside we met lots of really friendly Swedes last year that we wouldn't have without the Blue and Yellow ensign, was good initial talking point Anyone want to buy a lightly used sewn Swedish ensign?
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Post by vasko on Feb 24, 2019 11:47:27 GMT
Re EU registration - it isn’t working anymore as you can get a regustration still but the later dicuments clearly state NO FLAG - e.g you can have a registration but you cannot fly the Dutch or Swedish or Belgian etc flag if you are NOT permanent resident of the respective country - they imagine something like Dutch registration but still flying the country ir residence flag..,. And the Greek authorities know it from this year. ( Dutch tegistration was widely used but not anymore) Yes it does seem that the ICP (International Certificate for Pleasure Craft) documents are being changed following an incident last year with a Dutch flagged ship with migrants. My Swedish ICP that expires Nov 2019 currently does not have any reference about the rights to fly a flag or otherwise, but I am now guessing that will likely change as it has recently with the Dutch issued ICP documents So looks like I may have to revert to SSR and continue face the consequences that all UK vessels will have, not doubt they will be especially bad if we crash out with no deal at all..... On the upside we met lots of really friendly Swedes last year that we wouldn't have without the Blue and Yellow ensign, was good initial talking point Anyone want to buy a lightly used sewn Swedish ensign? What about Irish flag
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 24, 2019 12:23:11 GMT
What about Irish flag That would have been our first choice as Eileen now has an Irish Passport, but far too complex. There used to be an SSR equivalent but that was scrapped back in 2014 and now you have to do the full ship registration, which requires formal measurement by an Irish examiner, so we would have to at least pay to fly someone, if they were willing out to the boat, unless we returned with the boat to Ireland, which is not part of our plans...
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Post by hoppy on Feb 24, 2019 12:29:23 GMT
Mistroma sums up what is developing into a VAT headache. If we crash out of the EU with no deal then the EU does not have to recognise our VAT paid status. After all we shall no longer be part of the EU. Equally, HMRC have given no indication as to whether our VAT paid status will be valid after spending two yeas or more in EU waters following Brexit. They could treat us in the same way that they treat boats returning from prolonged stays in the Caribbean... VAT is payable again! I for one would be very grateful to see your PDF on sorting out the T2L. Your VAT status should be no different to that of any non-eu flagged vessels that are VAT paid. Even if you paid UK VAT, it should not matter as you paid EU VAT. Hopefully it will not require the RYA & CA taking the matter to the European courts. As for the UK VAT, it would seem crazy for the government to not exempt time in EU waters.
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Post by hoppy on Feb 24, 2019 12:45:37 GMT
Re EU registration - it isn’t working anymore as you can get a regustration still but the later dicuments clearly state NO FLAG - e.g you can have a registration but you cannot fly the Dutch or Swedish or Belgian etc flag if you are NOT permanent resident of the respective country - they imagine something like Dutch registration but still flying the country ir residence flag..,. And the Greek authorities know it from this year. ( Dutch tegistration was widely used but not anymore) Yes it does seem that the ICP (International Certificate for Pleasure Craft) documents are being changed following an incident last year with a Dutch flagged ship with migrants. My Swedish ICP that expires Nov 2019 currently does not have any reference about the rights to fly a flag or otherwise, but I am now guessing that will likely change as it has recently with the Dutch issued ICP documents So looks like I may have to revert to SSR and continue face the consequences that all UK vessels will have, not doubt they will be especially bad if we crash out with no deal at all..... On the upside we met lots of really friendly Swedes last year that we wouldn't have without the Blue and Yellow ensign, was good initial talking point Anyone want to buy a lightly used sewn Swedish ensign? I personally would not be worrying about the VAT status. Unless the EU deliberately legislates against the UK VAT paid status, I can't imagine that there should be an issue. You have paid the EU VAT and it should not matter if it was paid in the UK, because it was paid when they were in the EU. Your boat has remained in the EU so the VAT will not expire. You may have issues with customs officials not understanding the laws post change. I suspect it is possible that someone will suffer officialdom and the RYA & CA will use them as a reason for the European courts to clarify the rules. I'd go back to your british flag and be a member of the RYA & CA. It would be worth talking to the RYA & CA, because they must have engaged lawyers to advise them on what should happen with a no deal.
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Post by MalcolmP on Feb 24, 2019 15:25:52 GMT
You may have issues with customs officials not understanding the laws post change. I suspect it is possible that someone will suffer officialdom and the RYA & CA will use them as a reason for the European courts to clarify the rules. I'd go back to your british flag and be a member of the RYA & CA. It would be worth talking to the RYA & CA, because they must have engaged lawyers to advise them on what should happen with a no deal. Thanks Hoppy, yes hopefully that will be the case. I am a member of both CA and RYA but all the Brexit consequences information they have currently put out is pure guesswork, in the same way the CBI can't give any chapter and verse to businesses, it is all the great unknown. Provided there is some form of a negotiated deal then I think and hope British yachts should still have good long-term access to EU waters, crashing out will be the major headache....
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Post by alenka on Feb 24, 2019 17:05:31 GMT
Hoppy,
When it comes to Brexit all logic has gone out of the window and a difficult situation is being made impossible by stupid politicians on both side of this debate.
With regards to VAT in the EU. I suspect the worst case scenario is that we are treated in much the same way as current non EU boats are. In Greece a transit Log valid for 18 months. The timing of which can be reset by spending a night in a non EU country. Not too difficult at the moment. Turkey and Albania are a short sail away. In Spain a quick trip to N Africa or Gibraltar.
I am also happy (well not happy but resigned) that we can probably get a visa to extend the 90 day rule to a year if freedom of movement goes out of the window. (My understanding of such visas are that they are only valid for one country and not for touring)
What I will be most annoyed about is if, after two years, I find my VAT paid status in the UK is revoked in the same way it is for sailors who spend that amount of time out of EU waters. I can appreciate that if you buy a boat in these waters and re-import it then there could be a valid argument but for a boat staying in the same ownership..... ?
The RYA and the CA are as much in the dark as everyone else and won't spend money on lawyers at this point. Sadly the RYA seem to only want to promote racing these days and the CA are... let's say, careful with their money!
Alas, I believe my only ancestral connection to Europe goes back to the Vikings; I am pretty sure that's not going to get me dual nationality.
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Post by Mistroma on Feb 25, 2019 0:42:30 GMT
Brett, I put an electronic C88 form (PDF based) for T2L declaration at this link. Complete and sign the form, include copies of something to prove the boat is of EU origin (e.g. Bill of Sale etc.) and send to HMRC with SAE. They will stamp the form you send and return it, any other documents you sent will not be returned. Address: HM Revenue & Customs National Clearance Hub Ralli Quays 3 Stanley St Salford M60 9HL The PDF worked perfectly and HMRC accepted it and stamped it without a problem. It might be worth noting a few things: 1) I had previously read that SAE was not needed. I thought HMRC would return the form in one of their own envelopes and just ignore my SAE. This was not the case and it took a while to be returned in a non-stamped envelope with £2 fee for postage and admin. I would advise you to include SAE. 2) RYA said that HMRC required an original form and would not accept copies. I wonder if HMRC actually meant that they required a form with an original signature, not a photocopy. I have heard others say that HMRC accepted their downloaded black and white forms. My form looks exactly like an original coloured form but I could make a black and white version. 3) I have also read that HMRC don't always bother with supporting documentation. However, it is probably worth including copies, not originals (e.g. SSR or Part 1 and Bill of Sale).
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Post by johannes on Feb 26, 2019 11:27:31 GMT
As some will know I rightly or wrongly jumped a couple of years ago and ditched UK SSR and have currently chosen Sweden to register as it is simple and cheap for boats less than 12m and my wife who now has Irish nationality is the registered owner. For everyone's information: Sweden has new rules since 2018. It does not change much in practice, but previously registration of boats less than 12x4 m was optional, and registration of all vessels more than 12x4 m ("ships") was mandatory. Now, ships are defined as longer than 24 m and boats are defined as less than 24 m. Registration of boats longer than 15 m is mandatory, while registration of boats less than 15 m is optional. So there is now separate registration for ships and boats, and the mandatory limit has been raised. The effect in practice is that it is now a simpler process to register any boat less than 24 m.
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Post by hoppy on Feb 26, 2019 13:08:00 GMT
You may have issues with customs officials not understanding the laws post change. I suspect it is possible that someone will suffer officialdom and the RYA & CA will use them as a reason for the European courts to clarify the rules. I'd go back to your british flag and be a member of the RYA & CA. It would be worth talking to the RYA & CA, because they must have engaged lawyers to advise them on what should happen with a no deal. Thanks Hoppy, yes hopefully that will be the case. I am a member of both CA and RYA but all the Brexit consequences information they have currently put out is pure guesswork, in the same way the CBI can't give any chapter and verse to businesses, it is all the great unknown. Provided there is some form of a negotiated deal then I think and hope British yachts should still have good long-term access to EU waters, crashing out will be the major headache.... Whilst there will be a lot of unknowns, there will be existing EU laws that (should) clearly state how a non-eu registered boat with vat paid in the EU should be treated within EU waters. I really can't imagine that the EU has, would or could have a law that cancels the VAT that has been paid in an EU state, if that state leaves the EU. Lawyers should be able to establish this now and the only real issue for those with British flagged EU VAT paid vessels in the EU when the UK departs, should be the local officials who do not understand the laws correctly. I am surprised that the RYA & CA have not published what their lawyers have established, based on the current EU laws. But maybe the RYA & CA are approaching Brexit the way you Parliament is It really should not be too hard to work the post no deal brexit situation.
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