895 Fuel System problems (2019 model)

[lynnardm]

I am experiencing fuel system problems with my new NC 895.  Its hull no 33. Its one of the first if not the first 2019 model from Cadillac.  We took delivery this summer. Jeanneau America has made changes to the fuel system on this boat.  These changes are not yet indicated in the manual as it shows the previous system. This is the boat with a single F300 Yamaha that was so late for delivery as chatted about in some of the forum threads.

Here is the first problem. The fuel fillers have been relocated on the port and starboard side walkway surfaces with the vents directly above.  They were previously on the stern above the swim steps.  I presume this change is to have the locations better protected from sea water entering the system, but I don't know for sure if this is the reason.  Cap'n Ron reported on the problem of water entering the Attwood fuel system on his 795.  See the recent thread titled "You more than likely have water in your fuel system" for more info.  Anyway, the relocation of the fillers and vents would appear to be a good idea if executed properly.  But it appears there may be an issue with the design.  The dealer initially had problems getting a full tank of fuel into the tanks.  When filling, the fuel would at some times back up in the filler with fuel and air bubbles as if it was full when the tank was not full.  In fact the dealer (Sundance) attempted to fill both tanks for delivery but upon delivery I determined that the one tank was approximately 40 gallons from being full.  I filled that one tank by slowly adding more fuel even though the fuel nozzle kept shutting off due to the backup of fuel.  I've had this problem to some degree every time I put fuel in the tanks regardless of the amount of fuel in the tanks.  At the 2nd time I added fuel (since new) I managed to get a significant amount of fuel in before I started experiencing the backing up of fuel and the nozzle shutting off.  The last time I added fuel (after the tanks were empty - more on that below) it was very difficult and took a long time to get 40 gallons in.  And the entire time fuel with air was bubbling near the filler and backing up to the top of the filler.  This was so extreme that no matter how cautious and slow I went I still spilled some fuel. Today Sundance sent Seahawk Yacht Services to look into this problem and also some other warranty items.  Alex from Seahawk opened things up and immediately had concerns on the placement of the charcoal fuel canisters.  The suspicion is that the fuel canisters due to their location are getting fuel trapped in them and thereby not allowing the air to pass through and vent properly.  Alex is contacting Sundance to determine how to proceed. 

Now the 2nd problem.  I ran out of fuel.  I was very lucky in that we were in a small protected marina and folks immediately came to our rescue.  Prior to this we had just crossed the Straight Of Juan De Fuca.  Lucky we didn't run dry there!  Both fuel tank indicators indicated 3 bars of fuel, which should have been approximately 1/3 full in each tank.  Alex also looked at this today.  I informed him that the Sundance folks told me they didn't calibrate the gages as it appeared they were working correctly.  And he is pretty sure that is the problem.  But before calibrating he wants to check into the fuel sensors as the sensor part numbers (in the left and right tank) do not match each other, and also make whatever changes are necessary due to the venting problem.  Once this is all sorted out then we will need to empty the fuel from the tanks and perform the calibration.  Bottom line here for you new 895 owners is make sure your fuel system gages are properly calibrated.

Capt'n Lynn

[Mcaptain]

Capt'n Lynn, thanks for the heads up. It's been some time since your post, have you found a solution to the fuel backup issue?

MCaptain

[lynnardm]

Nov 27, 2018 17:49:47 GMT Mcaptain said:

Capt'n Lynn, thanks for the heads up. It's been some time since your post, have you found a solution to the fuel backup issue?

MCaptain

[lynnardm]

Mcapton

Thanks for asking. Seahawk Yacht Servives and Sundance determined that the most likely cause of the fuel filling problem was the fuel filler vents. Each tank is vented in 2 different ways. One is the charcoal filter and it’s vent through a p-cock. The 2nd is a vent line with a check valve that vents through the fuel Filler. (Under the fuel filler cap you can see both the big line where you input the fuel and a seperate small opening. This small opening is the 2nd vent. It’s purpose is to rapidly vent air from the tank when filling. There is a check valve in this line. Alex from Seahawk removed the check valve from each tank vent line. Just this weekend I finally got out and put some fuel in each tank. Wow. They each took fuel
just great With no fuel Backup or bubbling. the problem was the vent line check valves that were sticking.

On the calibration problem... Alex also performed a proper calibration of the fuel sender units and the Yamaha engine control gage. The tank levels Now appear to be reading correct. Next trip to the fuel Dock I’ll fill
The tanks completely to confirm.

Capt’n Lynn

[captgary]

We have an 855 MF and have the same problems. I also now believe it is the ptrap vent that is causing the problem. On the 855 it is impossible to get to this p trap. I plan to cut the vent line and add a second vent between the tank and p trap. I hope this will fix the problem. Boat is stored at the present time but this will be my first job in the spring.
Capt. Gary

[Mcaptain]

Dec 1, 2018 4:57:19 GMT lynnardm said:

Mcapton

Thanks for asking. Seahawk Yacht Servives and Sundance determined that the most likely cause of the fuel filling problem was the fuel filler vents. Each tank is vented in 2 different ways. One is the charcoal filter and it’s vent through a p-cock. The 2nd is a vent line with a check valve that vents through the fuel Filler. (Under the fuel filler cap you can see both the big line where you input the fuel and a seperate small opening. This small opening is the 2nd vent. It’s purpose is to rapidly vent air from the tank when filling. There is a check valve in this line. Alex from Seahawk removed the check valve from each tank vent line. Just this weekend I finally got out and put some fuel in each tank. Wow. They each took fuel
just great With no fuel Backup or bubbling. the problem was the vent line check valves that were sticking.

On the calibration problem... Alex also performed a proper calibration of the fuel sender units and the Yamaha engine control gage. The tank levels Now appear to be reading correct. Next trip to the fuel Dock I’ll fill
The tanks completely to confirm.

Capt’n Lynn

[Mcaptain]

Capt’n Lynn-
Thanks for the update. Our boat was just delivered and I will be interested to see if the issue is resolved.

[lynnardm]

Dec 4, 2018 14:26:08 GMT captgary said:

We have an 855 MF and have the same problems. I also now believe it is the ptrap vent that is causing the problem. On the 855 it is impossible to get to this p trap. I plan to cut the vent line and add a second vent between the tank and p trap. I hope this will fix the problem. Boat is stored at the present time but this will be my first job in the spring.
Capt. Gary

[lynnardm]

Capt gary

I’m not familiar with the differences between the 855 and new 895 fuel systems. But In your case With the 855, based on what captain Ron reported on his 795, I’m wondering if your venting problem could be Caused by clogged carbon canisters.

Capt’n Lynn

[captgary]

I know it is not the charcoal filters because that is on the first things I by passed. 

[lynnardm]

Here is an update to my fuel system problems, specifically on calibrating the fuel level sending units and the gages.  The system was calibrated in November last year as documented in this post.  All appeared well until the engine quit, apparently as I ran out of fuel.  The Yamaha gages were indicating 2 bars of fuel in the Port and 1 bar of fuel in the Starboard tank with 35 gals of fuel remaining.  THe Port tank is the one that apparently went empty.  Fortunately I returned to the docks on the starboard tank.  This is the first time I ran the tanks this low following the calibration in November.  So whats going on here?  The labels on the tanks indicate each holds 81 gallons for 162 gallons total.  The manual indicates the fuel capacity on this EPA system is 102.5 gallons.  I monitored fuel use following the previous fill-up and this indicates the port tank went empty at 53 gallons used and I had used 56.8 gallons from the starboard tank (but I don't know how close this tank was to empty).  This totals 109.8 gallons and obviously points to the tanks having a useable capacity closer to the 102.5 gallons figure from the manual.

The Sundance and Seahawk guys are puzzled on what the total useable capacity is on the tanks.  Useable is the key word.  How the heck would the EPA system result in a useable capacity that is 59.5 gallons less that what the labels indicate for the tank capacity (162 tank capacity - 102.5 useable capacity per the manual = 59.5)?  So yesterday they checked the calibration of the senders and Yamaha gage and I'm told it was correct.  They did however reset the total fuel capacity that is input into the Yamaha fuel indication system to be 102.5 gallons rather than what they had previously input which was I believe 150 gallons.  They tell me they are going to do further research into the fuel senders that are installed on my boat and also confer with Jeanneau.

If anyone has knowledge about the actual useable fuel capacity vs the listed tank capacity or anything else that may help please advise. 

Capt'n Lynn

[bluedart]

i Had some confusion when i bought my boat, since i saw various capacities reported.  This is what my dealer said and sent me.  

i believe it is correct

"It is 2-200 Liter(52.83 Gallons) The confusion is probably because the standard tanks were a total of 75 gallons 2 years ago, but now they are all

106 standard

[lynnardm]

Bluedart,

Welcome to the forum. Thanks for your input. Do your tanks have labels on them with tank info? Mine do. You can see the labels on each tank by opening the access doors that are accessible in the cockpit storage area. These labels are the ones from the tank manufacturer that list the capacity (81 gallons each) on my boat.

Capt’n Lynn

[Don Reaves]

Capt’n Lynn,

If you really ran out of fuel, this may be a good opportunity to measure how much you can put in the tanks.

I can think of two ways where the usable amount of fuel might differ from the size indicated on the label. The first is simply that the fuel pick-up doesn't let you access all of the fuel in the tank. This is common for diesel tanks, since you don't want to suck up all the grunge in the bottom of the tank and send it to your engine. I assume gasoline systems may have a similar approach.

The second way in which they may differ is if the tanks are soft bladder-type tanks. Then the shape of the area they are installed in would have a large effect on the actual amount of fuel you they could hold. Of course, you would be aware of this the second you looked at the tank.

Don

[lynnardm]

Don

That’s good input! The Seahawk guys were Talking about the fuel Pickups and that they should be a small Amount - perhaps an inch max - above the bottom of the tanks and the possibility that one of the fuel Pickups is longer than it should be. I will purposely run one of the tanks all
The way to empty with the engine running out of fuel and see how much fuel that takes based on the Yamaha gage fuel used indication and then confirm the amount when I fill it. Of course I better be sure I have enough fuel in the other tank to get to the fuel dock :,) Of course we could also put a scope down into the tank when empty to have a look. We hadn’t discussed the possibility of a bladder inside the aluminum tank. But as you said I think the technicians would have indications of this when working On it.

Thanks
Capt’n Lynn

[pnw895owner]

Capt’n Lynn,
Let us know what you find out on this. Obviously a 30%+ lower change in our 895 functional capacity is something we should all reset in our Yamaha / gps systems if indeed it’s the case.
Thanks
Rich

[westboating]

Capt'n L,

     As I understand it you're one of the few and maybe the only skippers of a single engine 895 in the states, and Sundance plumbed your fuel system not the factory.  I do not, and I don't think anyone else can select tanks.  I believe ours is set up for the starboard tank to feed the starboard engine and the same for the port.  That said it might be nice to cross feed to balance the boat and use opposite side fuel if you loose an engine (you probably could crawl back there and switch it via hose connections. Fun fact, there are hand squeeze pumps on the fuel lines back under there, don't ask why I know). 

    On a related note, we ran into a couple in Victoria last week running an 895 with twin 150s, which I don't think you can get normally.  He was lamenting his cruise performance as he was getting 1.25 mpg on a good day.  What's your medium speed economy cruise fuel consumption.  My engine display reads 1.6 through the water while making 24ish knots, and I roughed out 1.5 using my estimate of miles travels and the Yamaha fuel consumption readout.

      One other fuel note, when we dropped in in Anacortes I read 2 bars on either side (20%) in the tanks.  I then topped off with 104 gallons.  So, either I have ~130 gallon tanks or I was about to run dry (was planning on that with Jerry cans on deck).  The labels on the tanks read 85 gallons, and then there was a note stating usable fuel may be less than indicated on the tank.

[dogbreath]

Westboating et. al. I also have the NC 895 offshore with twin f200s. I have avoided running below ¼ indicated. Realizing that there would be some small variation between boats, has anyone determined what is the useable fuel available from these tanks. Thanks Dogbreath.

[lynnardm]

Westboating, et al,

Yes, both my tanks feed into a single line and then to the single engine. I use the pull handles next to the helm to control the mechanical valves at each tank. So I can open or close fuel flow on each. It would be nice for the twins to be able to divert fuel from one tank or engine to the other if needed but there is no way other than disconnecting lines. That’s certainly not desirable in the unlikely event one engine quit and then with the good engine you ran out of fuel. But perhaps that option is better than being stranded. It should be possible to easily connect a cross system fuel line to allow fuel to be pulled from either tank. Although of course making changes like this should be fully analyzed and then professionally installed. I have a friend who’s fuel line pulled off a connector (not an 895). His engine quit and trying to start it he pumped a lot fuel into the boat and into the water. Thank goodness there was no explosion.

The guy getting only 1.25 mpg with the twins puzzles me. I’d expect similar performance (to the 200’s or my 300). With my 300 I get similar to the twin 200’s at +/- 1.5 mpg at cruise. The single is significantly lighter and has less drag than the twins but with only a single propeller it has a bit more slip so I expect this is why performance is the same. The significant difference is at hull speeds (off plane) where the single gets significantly better mpg.

Here is an update on my boat. The Sundance/Seahawk guys decided to order a new set of matched fuel sensors and replace the ones in my tanks. And then of course calibrate them. They haven’t got an answer for the actual useable fuel capacity. After this I plan to run one tank completely empty. And then after filling that tank run the other tank empty. So stand by for more information although it may be a while.

Capt’n Lynn

[loub3]

Thanks Lynn for sharing this. We meet a couple weeks ago on the dock with Greg at Lake Union. I have the 895 Legend version. Can’t wait to here what new sensors do for this. Ours has the tanks tagged for 81 gals and I am just now about 2 bars on one and 3 bars on the other. Was thinking to go out this weekend but now I am going to fill up first and watch for the check valve issue also.

[lynnardm]

Today I contacted RDS who made the fuel tanks on my 895. I talked to Drew, their expert on the tanks. I also reviewed the tank drawings. The tank part numbers (listed on the tank labels) on my boat are 301625 (port) and 301717 (starboard). Drew confirmed the fuel capacity is 81 gallons each. And he informed me these EPA tanks have a “useable” capacity of 81 gallons minus the 1/2” of fuel below pickup locations.

The tank depth is 15 1/4”. The engine fuel pickups should be 14 3/4” (1/2” off the bottom). The port tank also comes with a fuel pickup for the generator which should be 11” long. The reason for this shorter length is so someone with a generator would not use all the fuel in that tank thereby leaving fuel available for the engine.

The engine fuel pickups are at the aft end of the tanks which if anything would be lower when the boat is in use. So there should only be a few gallons not accessible in each tank. Of interest is that the actual volume of the tanks is over 90 gallons each. The EPA requires air volume at the top of the tanks so this air volume results inthe 81 gallon fuel capacity.

RDS installs the components in the tanks like the fuel quality sending units and the fuel pickups. Drew said it’s possible but unlikely that they installed a short fuel pickup. Although in my case the Sundance guys determined during commissioning that there was a short fuel quantity sending unit in one tank . So its plausible that they installed a short fuel pickup.

So whats the problem with my boat? Don’t know yet. The tanks appear to be plumbed correctly with the engine fuel being pulled from the correct pickup locations and not from the shorter generator pickup. Sundance should have a new set of the correct fuel quantity sending units ordered. When they install and calibrate them,I will ask them to also drain the fuel in each tank and with a remote camera check the lengths of the fuel pickups. Lets hope that they are the correct length (½” from the bottom of the tank)because if they are too short that’s a real problem as it appears they cannot be accessed once the tanks are installed.

The good news is that the rest of you 895 owners with these tanks should have close to 160 gallons of fuel accessible.

Capt’n Lynn

[bluedart]

I am glad i had read this thread on fuel size and the reading on the gauges.

My gauges said over half tank on one side and .333 on the other.  the half tank took 46 gallons and the .333 tank took 30 gallons.  ( i verified the tanks for 1 and 2 were correct).  

I was driving around thinking i had 50 gallons of fuel (based on 106 total) and i had less than 20.    

Time to double check tank size, (see my quote above) or double check the tank size set up for the Yamaha gauges.  

Does anyone know how to do that?   Also on the Garmin 7612.

Also i am now thinking that the generator usage is not registered since the fuel flow data is from the Yamaha system.  i may have to keep track of that manually.  

[bluedart]

I keep learning. Based on recommendation above I looked at tanks and low and behold they are 81 gallons each . The dealer info must have been changed and this explains why I took so much fuel while the tank Gauge said I had plenty of fuel.

My problem is that you can only calibrate the tank when it’s empty so my gauges may not be too accurate

[bluedart]

Thanks to Lynnardm to have me double check the tank size. I have a 2019 895 NC built in the US

[lynnardm]

Bluedart,

The fuel tank sending units can be calibrated with fuel in the tanks. The procedure is to remove each sender, mark the shafts with a Cado marker at 1/4, 1/2 and 3/4. Then perform a calibration placing the floats at the bottom thru each position including with the floats all the way up indicating full. The calibration is performed using the Yamaha engine control module. I didn’t actually do it, the tech from Seahawk yacht services did. I don’t recall where the instructions are. But pretty simple once one knows how. I am concerned that the fuel senders are not being calibrated in new 895,s. In my case neither the factory nor the dealer did it. As I reported in this chain I found out the hard way that mine weren’t calibrated. The latest on my saga is i am waiting for the new matched set of fuel level sending units to arrive.

Capt’n Lynn