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Post by Tafika II on Dec 18, 2015 17:01:04 GMT
I’m thinking about adding a bow thruster to Tafika II, mainly for single-handed docking in wind and current situations. We are only looking at a 24VDC tube design, not an electric or hydraulic dropdown style. I see several thread on the site referencing Max Power, Lewmar, Quick and Side-Power. I will due the research for which model, but I am asking for comments as follows:
1. Is this a DYI project? I am very mechanically inclined and understand electrical wiring.
2. Does anyone have experience with Side-Powers Proportional Control?
3. If you had a yard install it, what did they charge you?
I guess that’s a start for this thread & we’ll go from there. No rush on this as this project is only my thinking so far and has not even been mentioned to “the boss”!
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Post by vasko on Dec 18, 2015 20:47:37 GMT
I have Max-Power and I happy with it - I got the yard to install it and that was HUGE mistake! Everything done by the yard regarding the electrical system was been redone from myself as every single thing has fail because of poorly done job from the yard. Now after things are done properly by me I enjoy reliable bow thruster.
If I need to install again a bow thruster I will never choose the tube type - I will go straight for the external type and do EVERYTHING myself. External type has A LOT of advantages a zero disadvantages.
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Post by alex1949 on Dec 18, 2015 22:39:53 GMT
I’m thinking about adding a bow thruster to Tafika II, mainly for single-handed docking in wind and current situations. We are only looking at a 24VDC tube design, not an electric or hydraulic dropdown style. I see several thread on the site referencing Max Power, Lewmar, Quick and Side-Power. I will due the research for which model, but I am asking for comments as follows: 1. Is this a DYI project? I am very mechanically inclined and understand electrical wiring. 2. Does anyone have experience with Side-Powers Proportional Control? 3. If you had a yard install it, what did they charge you? I guess that’s a start for this thread & we’ll go from there. No rush on this as this project is only my thinking so far and has not even been mentioned to “the boss”! Hi Tafika II (hi Vasco), I installed onboard my 2005 40'DS the Side Power EX75 three years ago and I am extremely satisfied. I did the whole installation job totally myself both mechanical and electrical works. I wanted to avoid the cruel body operation that is involved in bow tubing. I wanted to do the job myself. Job is very easy to do and it took me about two working days to do. You need to do the mechanical installation of the unit while the boat is up but it takes so little time to do,so you can do it while hanging on the hoist (around two working hours) No need for fiberglass working or any glue to dry. An additional plus is the ability to take the unit off the boat in a meter of minutes, plug the three small holes with seacocks and take the BT with you for your next boat. I picked up the 75 kg. thrust unit that is good enough for my boat's size. For the 42' that is a bit heavier I would opt for the EX 95. Electricity, these units works on 24 V which gives a much better performance. All you need is a couple of cheap 60AH wet cell batteries and a 12V-24V battery to battery charger, I installed the Sterling charger and I recommend to use it ,it's an outstanding piece of equipment and very easy for a DIY installment. Prices: Side power EX75 was 3000 EUR Inc. transportation . The Sterlng12V-24V charger was 250 Euro. Since you work 24V ,cabling is simple and cheap. Three years with no single problem and a huge pleasure in boat's maneuverability. Since the unit is so small and shaped so very efficient there is no significant reduce in boat's speed. I highly recommend.
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Post by ianpowolny on Dec 19, 2015 11:34:53 GMT
Brent, I can't help with the techy detail but would say we have a 7HP standard fit bow thruster on Affinity. Up to about 15kts across the bow it's ok. Beyond that and can be a bit iffy. Go for the largest you feel comforablr with. Ian
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Post by Tafika II on Dec 19, 2015 16:21:09 GMT
Vasco, thanks for the heads up in installation. We have 2 very competent (and expensive) yards locally who I trust, but the project does not look that difficult. My guess is 2-3 days.
Alex, I looked the exterior units, but I don't like thing hanging from the hull...other that big long thing in the middle, hater, props and the rubber, but thanks. It's not off the consideration list.
Ian, heard the same from several others, so I'm putting the largest unit in that will fit. The one I'm high on so far is rated for 22k 90º angled winds. Still researching. Thanks!
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Post by vasko on Dec 19, 2015 19:58:15 GMT
The performance of the bow thruster greatly depends on two factors: - how deep it is installed - how forward it is installed e.g. deeper is better and forward is better the issue is that the tube is always trade-off , vise verse the external one has all imaginable extras : a lot deeper and a lot forward , less resistance then the tube, a lot easier to install, a lot more reliable, a lot easier to clean, service and change. you should generally consider the bow thruster a tool for easy maneuvering in calm weather and not trustful helper in strong side wind. e.g of course it helps in strong side winds but when you desperately need help is in winds 20-25+kts and bow thruster will not be able to handle it... in brief I use my bow thruster for easy maneuvering in the french marinas as the path between the berths is claustrophobic ! e.g in my case two lines with 11 meters berths with piles with path between 10m and I'm still able to get in and out on my own with my boat which is 10.65m with the anchor without bow thruster, but the job is a lot safer and manageable with bow thruster  |
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Post by sleighride on Dec 20, 2015 0:18:34 GMT
Vasko: What about the risk of striking logs or debris in the water? Would not the tube be safer if one sails where there are crab pots and logs in the water that many time are hard to sea in large waves, strong wind, and poor light?
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 20, 2015 7:40:52 GMT
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Post by vasko on Dec 20, 2015 8:49:34 GMT
Agree guys there are always potential risks in everything I'm just saying my opinion as I already have been trough the procedure of installing a tube bow thruster from VERY reputable boat yard and after seeing how the electrics has been handled I'm worried about about how well the tube is attached. So far for 2 years the tube looks very stable, but still if something goes wrong it is quite big hole on top if we are going to talk about potentials - installing a tube in a hull designed to be without one is compromising the stricture e.g. on top of drilling a hole on the sides you drill a hole in the middle stabilizing rib . When the tube is installed is start preventing the the flexibility of the hull as the tubular element is not flexible e.g the point where the tube is attached to the hull become under serious stress and a week point. As newer is your boat as worse this issue is as newer boats are designed to be flexible and the strength is coming from the Kevlar composite materials used. Have you ever wander why the factory fitted bow thrusters are not really hols in the hull but the hull is molded this way and the bottom part is actually disconnected from the hull e.g a plastic cap - reason is flexibility. in brief if your boat is in the 85-95 you should be OK with tube thruster for newer boats my opinion is that the external one is safer. My boat is from 1990 Sun Liberty 34 and one of last boats with very think grp hull and on top she is from the first ever production boats with kevlar - I specially researched and wanted this exact double strength hull type as I did not like the squishing noise in my newer previous boats that i had over the years and i have been always concerned with the hull strength in case I hit something in the sea e.g. i'm safe with tube thruster but nevertheless if i need to do it again i'm going for the external type or factory fitted... |
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Post by rc sail on Dec 20, 2015 21:13:08 GMT
Brent,
I recall there was a company here in the USA that traveled and came to you to do in hull
tube type thruster installations. A google type search may turn up such a company and at
minimum provide you with some cost details.
Happy Holidays!
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Post by neil44i on Dec 20, 2015 23:25:12 GMT
Do any of you have experience with or have you considered one of these jethrusters? I like the concept and the fact they can be owner installed without any glasswork. Looks like they have a jetski type drive tied to a DC motor. www.jetthrusters.com/I have been considering one for my 44i and have also considered the exturn. |
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Post by vasko on Dec 21, 2015 1:10:53 GMT
aha great i did not known that they exists i had very similar idea to build one myself before going for of the shelve solution, but my idea was to have thank with water with about 10% air on top, using a simple air pump the air gets compressed to 150psi and after that jetting water port or starboard is just a matter of electromagnetic valves .... my calculations were shoving that with descent size tank there will be enough jet power to help mooring, but after that found a shop that was closing down and got my full max power kit for pennies and abandon the idea... btw: the jet idea is extremely useful for stern thruster as the other ptions are not very viable... |
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Post by MalcolmP on Dec 21, 2015 9:40:12 GMT
This idea has been around for quite a while - Some guys from Vetus developed the idea for the leisure market and set up a new business called Willdo, but they went bust. A new dutch company is now selling them www.hollandmarineparts.nl/If you do a google on Willdo thrusters you will see various comments, the principle seems good but perhaps there actual effectiveness is not as good as hoped. |
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Post by vasko on Dec 21, 2015 14:46:21 GMT
I've put the data for my boat in the wizard on the website and the result is nearly 5000 EUR - definitely too much for my taste taking in account the whole price for mine including mounting I managed for 2500EUR ...
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Post by Tafika II on Dec 21, 2015 22:52:34 GMT
I have all but ruled out the Side Power EX75. In California, we have huge kelp beds. In Mexico, we have floating stray fishing nets. Both will snag this unit! While the drag is pretty much non-existent in the forward motion, in tacking, I can see how this external unit could not affect drag. I’m also thinking if this was such a great unit, why are the major boat builders not using it as a factory accessory. I’m going to use a tube version.
The jet thruster looks interesting, but it adds two holes in the boat like thru-hulls where as the tube add structure and probably adds strength.
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Post by erkan on Dec 28, 2015 17:21:25 GMT
Hi,
I am not sure my message will be relevant, anyway just wanted to share my experience.
Bow thruster is very useful tool but at the same time, if not maintained (cleaned) periodically, can mislead the captain.
I did not sail the boat for some time, then in a windy day, I would go sailing and made a mistake to rely on the bow thruster. I left the mooring line and thought that the bt would hold the bow. But it did not due to barnacles. It caused a wrapped rope around main prop at the end. Antifouling application does not work well for propellers, so needs cleaning frequently... Or be sure it works well before you need it!
Bow thruster owners, how do you keep yours free of barnacles?
Happy new year,
Erkan
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Post by vasko on Dec 28, 2015 18:48:36 GMT
I cover all tube,,prop etc with 2-3 coats of antofouil and seems OK for a season...
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Post by Tafika II on Dec 30, 2015 0:18:53 GMT
After too much food, wine and family at Christmas, I locked myself in my home office & did some further research of the Jet Thruster Neil suggested. It may be very appealing. I've contacted the company representative in the USA so we can see what they have to say vs. a tunnel type thruster. The installation really consists of three rather standard thru-hull fittings that I am sure can be properly installed while the boat is in the travel lift sling. Once I do more homework, I'll update this thread.
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Post by alenka on Jan 1, 2016 10:46:05 GMT
Hi Brent,
Firstly, you will find a bow thruster a very useful tool, not just in small or crowded marinas but also for picking up mooring balls. Great when you can press a button and the bow moves 6 feet into the right position and that difficult stretch for crew now becomes a simple pick-up.
Personally, I would be over the moon if I could have stern thrusters too, even if they rarely get used.
Last year I lost 75% power from the Bow thruster. As the batteries were fairly new I suspected fouling on the props but they were pretty clean at lift out. It did indeed turn out to be the batteries, buried away under the forward bunk. Here was I thinking that after manoeuvring into a marina and plugging into shore power they would be all nicely charged up! Not the case!!
Most installations only charge the batteries from the engine. Which means if you use a lot of thrust you are leaving the batteries low and if you are quick to shut off the engine next day they don't get charged much then either. It can soon become a spiral into an early end.
This year I will be fitting a small dedicated smart charger plugged into one of the boats AC outlets that makes use of shore power.
As you are sailing single handed I would also strongly recommend a wireless remote that allows you to make adjustments from wherever you are on the boat not just at the wheel.
Happy New Year
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Post by rxc on Jan 1, 2016 15:48:36 GMT
There is one aspect of tube fitting that is very important - the "flare" of the tube on the forward side as it exits the hull. I have a Vetus bow thruster and the Vetus manual is very particular about this - you need to get this right or it WILL effect the hydrodynamics of your boat, and you WILL lose speed due to drag across the tube. I had a yard install the thruster on my boat (in Annapolis MD), and they had a specialist contractorwho did nothing but install the tubes. He had just the right "touch" for shaping the end of the tube and fairing it to the hull to reduce drag.
I have met some people who just had the end cut flush, and they were NOT happy with the effect on their sailing.
I also have my bow-thruster battery set up to do double duty. It feeds both the bow thruster and the anchor windlass. They are rarely used together, so it works quite well. It also helps that Jeanneau installed large capacity cables from the main engine all the way forward to the windlass, so that I get a boost from the engine, as well as the battery.
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Post by vasko on Jan 1, 2016 20:00:52 GMT
I've seen shaped tubes on the bow thrusters and it seems logical.. my one do no have any specific shape and do not affect the sailing performance at all - all is the same before the installation and after the insulation - but this can be because my boat is too small 34 feet and the tube is not big also... batteries: when the engineer installed originally the bow thruster I specifically asked the batteries to be charged from the mains charger and the engine and they were connected BUT the cable size was not calculated properly and was not working perfectly.. after I have redone everything electric myself now all works like a charm and all batteries are properly charged from solar, wind, mains and engine and the trickle charge takes good care for all batteries also...
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Post by abgreenbank on Jan 1, 2016 22:14:48 GMT
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Post by Tafika II on Jan 2, 2016 18:26:08 GMT
The issue of 12V vs. 24V seems to be an issue that the SO42DS is on the borderline. Since all our other systems are 12V, that would be the most logical and easiest installation. I have not tackled the subject of putting in a 24V battery in conjunction with a 12V systems and on how to charge it. This is still a work in progress, so anyone who know how to charge 24V with a 12V system...please chime it!
Happy New Year All!!!!
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Post by vasko on Jan 2, 2016 19:15:57 GMT
sterling-power.com/products/battery-to-battery-chargerspersonally if this was for my own boat I will get 12v thruster and just add two additional batteries to the house bank located very close to the thruster or build my own relay system when charging connecting the batteries in parallel and charge 12v and when switch on the thruster connect them as a 24v bank - keep in mind that if you get LiFePo4 battery a 20ah can give you 1000+ CCA and can be charged together with the wet cells with no additional electronics and the recharging will be quite fast also...
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allthewaythere
Junior Member
Sun Odyssey 45.2
Posts: 22 
Jeanneau Model: 2000 Sun Odyssey 45.2
Yacht Name: All The Way There
Home Port: Detroit, Michigan
Country: USA
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Post by allthewaythere on Jan 3, 2016 7:03:41 GMT
FWIW, I have a 45.2 with bow thruster. It is 12V and there are 2 dedicated 12 volt batteries located in the fo'c'sle. This places the batteries less than 2 feet from the thruster motor. Charging is done by a dedicated 1 bank charger in the fo'c'sle, with 120V run to the charger ... to manage the voltage drop the wire gauge for charging from the alternator would require something like 90 feet of 2 AWG wire, very very pricey. Admittedly I do have a 120V genset, so I always have the option of recharging the thruster batteries without shore power. My other 3 battery banks can be charged with either a different 120 volt AC charger located near the these banks or using the 80 amp 12V engine alternator given the short distance between alternator and these banks. If you keep the bow thruster battery bank 'isolated' as I ended up doing, I guess that powering the thruster with 24V is easily accomplished and merits some consideration.
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