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Post by vasko on Jul 9, 2016 11:34:30 GMT
If you add a depth sounder, you can create your own charts of a small bay or lagoon by sending the dinghy out on a search pattern to collect sounding data. Of course, if you're not the only boat, it might be annoying to others... aha covert my outboard project to charting robot but then I can use mt RC boat software testing prototype that I have and the battery last 10+ hours on it ( I've tested the software with large RC boat with all the RC stuff away and my controlling software and hardware installed )
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 10, 2016 7:29:35 GMT
Vasco , I guess in my case I would be needing a battery pack - preferably lipo - that is able to supply 2 * 500 watts at 24 volts. Most likely I will control the speed of both propellors seperately with two print boards and double potentiometer , my constant need for redundancy remember You raised the issue of 24 volts as being difficult to charge up , but there is the 12 to 24 volt inverters as you know . They come very cheap and 20 amps continious isn't that much of a problem. But what would you suggest as a battery pack ? No doubt a balancing circuit is required for this type of battery no ? Thanks Regards
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Post by vasko on Jul 10, 2016 12:01:36 GMT
Vasco , I guess in my case I would be needing a battery pack - preferably lipo - that is able to supply 2 * 500 watts at 24 volts. Most likely I will control the speed of both propellors seperately with two print boards and double potentiometer , my constant need for redundancy remember You raised the issue of 24 volts as being difficult to charge up , but there is the 12 to 24 volt inverters as you know . They come very cheap and 20 amps continious isn't that much of a problem. But what would you suggest as a battery pack ? No doubt a balancing circuit is required for this type of battery no ? Thanks Regards there are 3 options for battery packs : cheap and dirty hack: 18650 - one cell is between 3.2 discharged to 4.2 fully charged - e.g. for 12v you need 3 cells , for 24v 6cells - performance wise - best option - just buy second hand cells from ebay - is the best option as they still hold obout 2000ma , the best quality china made - holds max 920ma and some of them are really bad 50ma for example... no poi t buying the korea original samsung or lg as you will not be able to properly do a balaced charging - just connect how many amps in paraller and x 6 for 24v LiFePo4 - the proper way to go get 8x (40ah or 60ah)for 24v (actually 29v fully charged) connect parallele and get a BMS for balaced charging from ev-power Li-Ti - the best option but quite dare still ... step-up from 12 to 24 is a waste of energy better concentrate on big cable to really get 14.4 from the alternator design the pack to be able to charge it on 12v and use it as 24b
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ceriabertawe
Junior Member
Posts: 13
Jeanneau Model: SO 33i
Yacht Name: Hwyl Fawr
Home Port: Swansea
Country: Wales UK
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Post by ceriabertawe on Jul 10, 2016 14:55:31 GMT
Sounds really good. Also the options for the different users. I have a 2.3m dinghy and hopefully, I will be in the market for a new outboard next season, so I will be very interested then. Carry on the good work.
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ceriabertawe
Junior Member
Posts: 13
Jeanneau Model: SO 33i
Yacht Name: Hwyl Fawr
Home Port: Swansea
Country: Wales UK
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Post by ceriabertawe on Jul 10, 2016 15:01:36 GMT
Reading further up the thread, I see the plan for DIY constructors /testers. Very interested in this option( as a competent recently retired chartered engineer).
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Post by vasko on Jul 11, 2016 6:56:04 GMT
Vasco , I guess in my case I would be needing a battery pack - preferably lipo - that is able to supply 2 * 500 watts at 24 volts. Most likely I will control the speed of both propellors seperately with two print boards and double potentiometer , my constant need for redundancy remember You raised the issue of 24 volts as being difficult to charge up , but there is the 12 to 24 volt inverters as you know . They come very cheap and 20 amps continious isn't that much of a problem. But what would you suggest as a battery pack ? No doubt a balancing circuit is required for this type of battery no ? Thanks Regards there are 3 options for battery packs : cheap and dirty hack: 18650 - one cell is between 3.2 discharged to 4.2 fully charged - e.g. for 12v you need 3 cells , for 24v 6cells - performance wise - best option - just buy second hand cells from ebay - is the best option as they still hold obout 2000ma , the best quality china made - holds max 920ma and some of them are really bad 50ma for example... no poi t buying the korea original samsung or lg as you will not be able to properly do a balaced charging - just connect how many amps in paraller and x 6 for 24v LiFePo4 - the proper way to go get 8x (40ah or 60ah)for 24v (actually 29v fully charged) connect parallele and get a BMS for balaced charging from ev-power Li-Ti - the best option but quite dare still ... step-up from 12 to 24 is a waste of energy better concentrate on big cable to really get 14.4 from the alternator design the pack to be able to charge it on 12v and use it as 24b LiFePo4 - example pack - you can use this type of cells ( all properly done): ---------------------------------------------- www.ebay.co.uk/itm/271948650434and connect 8 in sequential BMS can be sourced from here : www.ev-power.eu/Battery-Management/----------------------------------------------- 18650 cells - you need to find something like this : www.ebay.co.uk/itm/111992681505?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AITlet say for example you get 120 cells - connect then in 6 parallel sets of 20 and next connect the 6 parallel sets sequential and you will get a battery which when fully charged will have 25.2v and when fully discharged get to 19.2v the charging will be VERY tricky !! as you need to make sure that you never charge the batteries to more then 25.2v !!! and never discharge lower then 19.2v - as the whole thing will not be only ruined - but may catch fire. another problem is soldering them all together will be a challenge .. you may need a special battery solder like this : www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SUNKKO-787A-18650-Battery-Micro-computer-Spot-Welder-Battery-Charger-LED-Light-/281887031398?hash=item41a1c6c066:g:3UkAAOSwSHZWcToTbut still there is no way to get cheaper li-ion battery pack then use second hand laptop batteries ----------------------------------------------------- if you are interested in how to charge li-ion batteries I can give you brief how-to also as all descriptions are quite complicated and deliberately unclear...
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 11, 2016 7:25:48 GMT
The day before yesterday I've contacted a manufacturer in China on the Alibaba site , I expect him to work out the price of a battery pack that can supply 50 amps continuously. Yesterday he (or she) emailed me notifying that it's also Sunday in China and he would address my case today. So I guess I will get a quotation soon . Will post it on the board of course.
With regards to charging the battery pack using a step up convertor , I ' m in the blessed situation not to worry about that , having all that solar energy to my disposal. But then I'm only making , or intend to make , a powerful electro outboard for myself . If I decide to get on with the project I will document and post all experiments and relevant info of course.
Regards
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Post by vasko on Jul 11, 2016 7:51:04 GMT
The day before yesterday I've contacted a manufacturer in China on the Alibaba site , I expect him to work out the price of a battery pack that can supply 50 amps continuously. Yesterday he (or she) emailed me notifying that it's also Sunday in China and he would address my case today. So I guess I will get a quotation soon . Will post it on the board of course. With regards to charging the battery pack using a step up convertor , I ' m in the blessed situation not to worry about that , having all that solar energy to my disposal. But then I'm only making , or intend to make , a powerful electro outboard for myself . If I decide to get on with the project I will document and post all experiments and relevant info of course. Regards can you share which manifacturer you have asked ?
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 12, 2016 5:40:24 GMT
This is the answer I received from one of the sellers on Alibaba I contacted. King Shenzhen Honghaosheng Electronics Co., Ltd. www.buy18650battery.com/sell-2853231-3-7v-18650-2900-mah-for-panasonic-ncr18650-29pf.htmlA regular battery seller , just as an example . As I will be needing 6* 17 cels the projected prici from King isn't that bad. Could you give me your take on that Vasco ? Regards Good day Thank you for your reply. According to your requirement ,we recommed battery pack as below Model:7s17p 18650 Panasonic 29PF2900mah battery Voltage:24v Capacity:50ah Working current:50AMP Max working current:55AMP Size:Can be customized with your requiement EXW:USD$360/pc for 2PCS Pls kindly check.
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Post by hoppy on Jul 12, 2016 6:13:10 GMT
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Post by vasko on Jul 12, 2016 7:21:55 GMT
This is the answer I received from one of the sellers on Alibaba I contacted. King Shenzhen Honghaosheng Electronics Co., Ltd. www.buy18650battery.com/sell-2853231-3-7v-18650-2900-mah-for-panasonic-ncr18650-29pf.htmlA regular battery seller , just as an example . As I will be needing 6* 17 cels the projected prici from King isn't that bad. Could you give me your take on that Vasco ? Regards Good day Thank you for your reply. According to your requirement ,we recommed battery pack as below Model:7s17p 18650 Panasonic 29PF2900mah battery Voltage:24v Capacity:50ah Working current:50AMP Max working current:55AMP Size:Can be customized with your requiement EXW:USD$360/pc for 2PCS Pls kindly check. if you decide to use 18650 - cells number of very important things : 1. before commiting anything to a china producer ( learned this on the hard way - wasted about £600 ) ask for one set let say 6 batteries and test all of them how much charge they hold with something simple like : www.ebay.co.uk/itm/XTAR-VC2-LED-USB-Battery-Charger-18650-14500-16340-18500-26650-UK-STOCK-/262499289570?hash=item3d1e2d49e2:g:dUMAAOSwOVpXcCNjwhich can show you how much charge you can put in a battery - for a discharge just use a flash light with 18650 until the battery goes down to 3.5 - 3.2v usually a quality battery will hold in reality about 2000ma - 2500ma - more then that is really rare - Chinese build with good quality usually hold about 900ma-1000ma some of them are REALLY FAKE also e.g. 50ma or less ! 2. charging a 18650 is not a trivial business ! - you need a proper li-ion charge controller or build one yourself using arduino( the software is not a issue I will send you mine) - e.g. you need to be able to control the charging - to not go more then 0.5C of the bank, to not go over 4.2v per cell ( 12.6 and 25.2 respectively) and monitor the charge current when it drops under 0.05c stop charging. ANY DIFFERENCE IN THE CHARGING SCENARIO WILL LEAD TO complete damaging the cells 3. you need to monitor the discharging state of the battery bank - and never go under 3.2v ( better 3.5v) - if you get a 18650 cell under 3v it is completely damaged forever 4. if a cell is damaged it can be really bad - it can overcharge and when used will catch fire - e.g. to get this effect minimised first connect in parallel next in sequence 5. if you decide on 18650 cells - make sure that the price is really non-important to you and you are happy to throw the whole pack away if something goes wrong.. - that was the reason why I suggested old laptop cells - 6. BTW : I have some extensive testing with with 18650 battery banks for my outboard and so far it seems to work well without BMS but still it is onky testing... - on the other side LiFePo4 are a lot more safe, a lot more durable on non proper use and BMS for them are cheap ( pennies) and you will need only 8 cells in sequence
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Post by vasko on Jul 12, 2016 7:24:02 GMT
hobbyking is a good - source sometime they have a clearance etc. and the price can get really good - you need to be prepared to dismount the cells and mount them in new configuration which is not trivial
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Post by hoppy on Jul 12, 2016 8:07:50 GMT
Why dismount? Because the shape might not fit the housing?
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Post by vasko on Jul 12, 2016 9:43:02 GMT
Why dismount? Because the shape might not fit the housing? because the good prices are for non standard voltages and you need to take out or add a cell to fit in the voltage requirements - also the lipo batteries are very good for huge amp draw but don't last too long... it all depends what you plan to do - the best option is Li-Ti but little bit overpriced currently next is LiFePo4 , from price point of view next is 18650 & LiPo
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Post by vasko on Jul 12, 2016 9:48:14 GMT
in brief my suggestion for li batteries if need to be done properly is LiFePo4 connected in sequence until reach the desired voltage and some pennies for BMS and you will get 2000+ cycles and fast charge and 100% available capacity and can be charged directly from the current charging system assuming it never goes over 14.8v
if someone wants to build a proper charger I can supply software for doing this for free for arduino
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Post by hoppy on Jul 12, 2016 9:54:45 GMT
Couldn't you use 2 x 4S for your 12v charging and 24v power?
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Post by vasko on Jul 12, 2016 13:23:06 GMT
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Post by vasko on Jul 12, 2016 13:24:48 GMT
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 30, 2016 8:48:33 GMT
How's the project getting along Vasco ?
Regards
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Post by vasko on Jul 30, 2016 16:01:41 GMT
How's the project getting along Vasco ? Regards Great fun had a great week sailing and experimented with dingy and auto return and path finding in the Empuriabrava channels and between the boats on buys at Cadaques harbour had some issues with the compass correctness and thinking in "manual mode" to have by default the compass autopilot switched off - e.g. go ahead will bean same power on both motors without auto-correct to follow the exact compass degrees - as if teh compasss is not correctly calibrated the experience can be annoying... working on a new box design and will print it on a 3D printer when ready ...
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 30, 2016 7:01:07 GMT
It's been 5 months without any news , would love to hear on the progress Vasco ? How's things coming along ?
Regards
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Post by vasko on Dec 30, 2016 13:34:37 GMT
Mary Xmas Current state : *in brief: all up and running - thing working on currently improving the propellers size and form, improving the auto modes - e.g. return on prerecorded path, auto anchor and auto pontoon stay. - all else is good , tested and work stable - experimenting on the Thames between Kingston and Richmond generating fun for the walking people -- more detailed one --- serious showstopper problems that I managed to overcome : 1. H-Bridge ( motor control) frying from reverse current - turn out to be solvable with step by step motor up and down put open source solution here : github.com/vtomanov/Motor642. 8-bit CPU - VERY un-precise GPS calculations about 15-80m precision - unacceptable - wrote my own GPS calculations with hi-peft algorithms and 64bit floating point lib put open source solution here : https:/ /github.com/vtomanov/Gps64 3. the exact GPS calculation are kind of slow and need to be done in background thread as if done on a main loop then the reading from gauges and serial communication will be interrupter for more then 300msec at times... which si leads to complete mess and non working solution. put a opensource for atmel/arduino muti-threaded solution here : github.com/vtomanov/Thread644. Default Bluetooth serial communication in the Bluetooth module and serial libraries is CHILDISH ! - needed to build a full featured serial communication for my exact Bluetooth protocol from scratch with recovery, buffers, overflow and corrections. - on both sides arduino and Apache Cordoba on the mobile devices. 5. issue with charge control and power supply to the processor from the same charging batteries. - solved with separate power supply for the control unit 6. issue with different model chargers some generate some non wanted electric noises may lead to cpu board frying - manged to get them filtered - now the battery can be charged from ANY car or boat battery charger. 7. non existence of decent logging library for arduino/atmel - put open source my own: github.com/vtomanov/Log649. issue with GPS noise/mistakes - need to develop my own version of Kalman filter algorithm and tune it properly for all GPS data and gauges data 10. compass calibration - needed to develop my own compass auto calibration algorithm that calibrates as you use the engine and when ready allow advance mode. 11 . Autopilot without calibrated compass and proper gps signal and advance auto pilot with compass and gps - auto switchable when ready - non-visible for the user 13. custom algorithm for filtering and averaging of compass data. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ and YES things looks more complicated then they seems, but unfortunately this is the world we are in if you do it on the easier way it generally seems to work but in the end you have one messy unstable thing that you hate all the time and cannot trust and I hate to produce this type of dices and that's why things get complex DJI is doing their autopilot calculations on 24 x 64bit cores CPU and I'm trying to do it on 1 x 8 bit core and it does the job for a boat as the boat react slowly - and the logical question - why the hell I do not use a more powerful CPU and solve all my problems ? - simple the more powerful CPUs are not for industrial environment and are not stable and reliable in bad environments.... e.g. the whole thing will not be durable and thereafter useless... and also will be expensive .. e.g. also useless..
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Post by vasko on Dec 30, 2016 13:37:44 GMT
BTW: Offer is still on the table:
EVERYONE WHO IS INTERESTED TO TRY AND BUILD HIS OWN ELECTRIC OUTBOARD - I will supply free of charge detailed instructions, software and from where and what to buy and how to connect them - just PM me and I will guide you and help you -
e.g. you will be able to build same engine on cost price with little effort and enjoy it....
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Post by sailbleu on Dec 31, 2016 9:02:02 GMT
Well Vasco , you've lost me somewhat here . But if I understand half of what you were explaining , you seem to have rounded up the whole software shebang. But being a ' hardware ' guy myself , I'm also very interested in the power performance and aesthetic appearance of the end result of course. Haven't given up on my project though , a few weeks ago I almost bought 2 * 86 lbs ( 24 volt) new outboards for 125 Euro each , until the ebay seller decided not to get bothered with shipping it to my country. I still have my 64 lbs (12 volt) that I run on a Chinese speed controller ( see page 2 June 23 ) that came through the summer season with flying colors . I really admire your software and programming skills , but I prefer the KIS philosophy , keep it simple . Your approach drew me in to the idea of using 2 standard motors parallel and thereby get rid of the two consoles and replace them by 2 speed control prints and a 2 in 1 potentiometer . Work out some housing for the electronics and steering system ,and a mount on top of all that for the solar panel . Would love to see how you've handled the steering of both engines simultaneously, sadly enough all your pics are gone . Why not use Tinypic.com ? Would be able to wrap my set up for 300 Euros , batteries not included. Labor hours are for free no ? On the contrary, it's just so much fun making it.
Looking forward to your next update. Happy new year all.
Regards
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Post by vasko on Dec 31, 2016 9:52:15 GMT
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