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Post by vasko on Jun 22, 2016 19:24:45 GMT
Flying to my boat Saturday and will do sea trials of the dinghy engine next 2 weeks and upload video/pics - ( was scheduled for tomorrow but Ryan air decided to cancel the flight Stansted - Perpignan tomorrow and the earliest possible was for 25th Sat ....
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Post by sailbleu on Jun 23, 2016 5:49:31 GMT
Very curious . Please don't think I want to undermine your commercial enterprise , but I do have a few concerns I have some experience with electro outboards. My first one was a 55 lbs which I found far to light. In the beginning of this year I was able to score a 62 lbs excursion with broken speedcontrol and modified it into an electronic speed controlled outboard. Most of these cheaper toys have a mechanical 2 reverse and 5 forward switch that has to endure high currents . Sooner or later the contacts inside will wear down resulting in less copper and therefor heating up and melting . 62 lbs is the max you get in 12 volts , then the 24 volt serie starts. I believe the 62 draws 60 amps and the leads , also those for the supply , are not man enough. The heat up and you lose power. The thing with those cheapies is that most people think when they trottle down they save power . WRONG ! That combination switch inside , an ingenious desing when you open it btw, will relay the power to internal resistors built inside the propellor house. For reasons of heat dissipation . Depending on the position of the switch one or more resistors are engaged. So slowing down speed will not make you save energy , it will only divert some of it to the sea. Being able to lay my hands on an bargain an experiment was called for. Electronic power control. www.aliexpress.com/item/J34-Free-Shipping-DC-10-50V-60A-Motor-Speed-Control-PWM-HHO-RC-Controller-12V-24V/32443231224.html?spm=2114.30010308.8.46.5wH13dWorks a treat. Unfortunately the print was to big to be built in so a waterproof housing was required . Inside the box is the print and 2 relays ( plus and minus) operated by the switch for reverse or forward. The potentiometer is at the end of the handle and this position turned out to be very ergonomical. Although a great improvement in saving power , my 44 amps lead acid dies on me after , lets say , less than 30 minutes of use. Which is normal as a LA battery can only be drawn to 50 % before it collapses. Yet even the 64lbs is not sufficient to transport 4 or 5 people , not for big distances anyway. I also have a 20 watt solar panel that I carry along . It helps , especially when the dinghy is not used . When exposed properly it will keep the battery (semi) charged . And this is were I think you make a mistake Vasco . The foldable panel is a good idea , but laying it on the dinghy's floor will create shadows here and there and a major part of the panels capacity will be lost. I think you would be better off by adding a small removable bracket of some sort so a panel could be mounted above the outboard , freely exposed . Just an idea. If I would do it again , an electronic power control would be priority number one , next to a 24 volt model . At Least 86 lbs. www.ebay.de/itm/Ausenbordmotor-Elektromotor-Ausenborder-Bootsmotor-Motor-Boot-86-LBS-24V-2-050kg-/311564579269?hash=item488ab231c5:g:NGgAAOSwoudW4tCmLooks temping does it not. I know Vasco , your model has , or will have , more features , Li-ion and so on , but there' s huge competition out there . I hope you succeed , hence , I might be one of your customers . All depends on the price of course . Ps: You do know a Brexit will increase that price yes. Sorry guys , couldn't resist 😈😈😈
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Post by vasko on Jun 23, 2016 6:59:42 GMT
in the actual setup we use 2 x 360W engines and each one is controlled by (50amps max) electronic H-Bridge e.g. we have about 50% more then the rated power of the motors - the motors are started on steps to make sure that the initial starting is safe. current battery options are between 40ah LiFePo4 - which is our proffered option , but also we have prototypes with 86ah down to 36ah based on 18650 cells - depending on the cells and prices. I have no idea about brexit effect on prices - but to play safe we have 3 options options assembling line in Bulgaria ( EU ) and another one in UK or we can supply DYI kits e.g. point from where what elements to get and build it yourself with software from us when I'm keen that the engine does what I feel it need to do - I will offer to everyone who wants to participate in the initial beta testing a option to build a engine himself with free software from us and list of elements that he need and instructions or pre-build prototype on cost price. btw: currently the enclosure box has a little "military" feeling - build from heavy duty 4mm aluminium with proper welding... the final products will be with plastic ot optional carbon enclosure - but the main point at this stage is functionality. the 60W solars looks quite useful currently - if left in the bottom of the dingy when the dingy is not in use ( on the davits or on shore/pontoon) this give about 30min motoring per day - which is generally enough for my type of usage - additional charging can be done from the boat engine/alternator - about 25amps charging power is used with 40+ah batteries e.g. full charge about 2-3h from 0
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Post by vasko on Jun 23, 2016 7:17:47 GMT
btw: there some show stopper problems for me with the current electric outboards:
1. top brands - like Torqueedo - tooooo expensive similar setup will cost about 3K, charging VERY slow - one night+ minimum, cannot motor long time.
2. cheap version - too under-power to get a proper power you need 24v - separate batteries are awful options in 24v version real showstopper to have 2 x 20kg batteries transports constantly up and down. -
3 all - do not have remote control, no autopilot - when you move around the boat it changes direction, need to look forward and hold the handle backward after sometime my neck start to hurts.... not to mention the auto return and anchor options and USB charging point etc.
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Post by vasko on Jun 24, 2016 8:54:39 GMT
Dark colour style for the remote control app - for night sailing:
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Post by vasko on Jun 26, 2016 20:07:45 GMT
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Post by hoppy on Jun 27, 2016 4:45:33 GMT
Hmmm the design precludes it from ever being used on my Honwave
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Post by MickeyB on Jun 27, 2016 6:51:45 GMT
Vasko - Hats off to you - that is one serious prototype!!
My attempts at anything similar are very much more childish - really impressed!
Good luck.
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Post by vasko on Jun 27, 2016 17:50:20 GMT
Hmmm the design precludes it from ever being used on my Honwave why ? it is just a box that gets on the back of the dinghy...
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Post by vasko on Jun 27, 2016 18:00:30 GMT
e.g. drill 4 holes and attach it with bolts - the actual form of the box can be different to match the plank... as a result - all is as expected - and overall extremely happy - some current deficiencies: - not happy with max speed and power - will expect x2 actually - need to change the motor supplier - one of the motors had a defect and constantly manage to break the H-bridge after 2-3 ours of working - the construction need to get 5kg lighter to get to 15kg as the original plan - GPS sometime little bit slow of acquiring 4 satellites ( takes between 12 minutes and 30 seconds ) - compass can get wrong readings from big boats(ginpalaces) passing around) - better looking enclosure/box
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Post by hoppy on Jun 27, 2016 18:02:09 GMT
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Post by vasko on Jun 27, 2016 18:27:35 GMT
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Post by sailbleu on Jun 28, 2016 5:47:35 GMT
e.g. drill 4 holes and attach it with bolts - the actual form of the box can be different to match the plank... as a result - all is as expected - and overall extremely happy - some current deficiencies: - not happy with max speed and power - will expect x2 actually - need to change the motor supplier - one of the motors had a defect and constantly manage to break the H-bridge after 2-3 ours of working - the construction need to get 5kg lighter to get to 15kg as the original plan - GPS sometime little bit slow of acquiring 4 satellites ( takes between 12 minutes and 30 seconds ) - compass can get wrong readings from big boats(ginpalaces) passing around) - better looking enclosure/box If you ask me Vasco , by what I read you will be needing a complete new design ? The way I see it you definitely need davids with your concept. Many tow their dinghy and store it on the transom or fordeck for longer sails , not easy to take your unit off is it not ? Please dont see this as criticism but as requested feedback. Will the two poles be sticking out permanently ? I suppose it's the housing for the engines shafts , lowering the propellors no ? Infact is it possible to raise or lower the props ? I sometimes lift or raise my outboard , be it petrol or elektro , when getting into shallow waters. Maybe you could apply some hinges on the top of the teansom to flip the unit up ? Not sure if I express myself in an understandable manner though. Why not use the poles to put a solarpanel on ? Would combine aesthetics with functionality no ? What is the thrust of the motors you use now ? Regards
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Post by rene460 on Jun 28, 2016 11:38:47 GMT
Hi Vasko,
Congratulations on a truly magnificent effort, actually constructed, not just a dream. I particularly like your user friendly software interface. It must be very satisfying to see it actually working after all the work you have put into its development.
You requested feedback and I know from my career how important this can be to achieving an optimal solution.
May I offer the following comments or suggestions in the spirit of your request:-
I would like to see the box inside the transom for better spray protection, particularly if you use reverse, and like sailbleu, the motors on a flip up bracket, mounted on the outside end of the same bolts. I can see the obvious similarities with trolling motors with which it has obvious similarities. However I suspect their protection is the slow speed at which they normally operate. When you double your speed, I suspect that not just motors but also propellors may need some form of mechanical protection. Perhaps some sort of Kort nozzle principle around the propellors might be possible.
It is hard to be sure from the photo, but I suspect that water can pool on the top of the unit and this will eventually penetrate one or more of the many seals. I suspect that your carbon fibre version will need rounded corners to be self draining and the openings slightly raised. If the box is on the inside, the foreward face will be available and might provide more favourable locations than the top. I assume that you will also consider the long term sealing of the enclosure while still being maintenance friendly, just in case a capacitor or FET needs replacing sometime.
I am not so sure on the usefulness of solar panels, I suspect that even in our sunny clime, a panel large enough to to make a significant contribution to propulsion energy will be more like a full length sun shade, great for fuel saving and staying cool, but difficult to store on deck. I am not sure of a small maintenance panel, it is good for lead acid, but perhaps not so useful for LiPo? However a removable panel in the floor might sometimes be useful for a slow recharge if the usage allows this.
Congratulations again on a great project and imaginative implementation.
rene460
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Post by vasko on Jun 28, 2016 13:22:01 GMT
e.g. drill 4 holes and attach it with bolts - the actual form of the box can be different to match the plank... as a result - all is as expected - and overall extremely happy - some current deficiencies: - not happy with max speed and power - will expect x2 actually - need to change the motor supplier - one of the motors had a defect and constantly manage to break the H-bridge after 2-3 ours of working - the construction need to get 5kg lighter to get to 15kg as the original plan - GPS sometime little bit slow of acquiring 4 satellites ( takes between 12 minutes and 30 seconds ) - compass can get wrong readings from big boats(ginpalaces) passing around) - better looking enclosure/box If you ask me Vasco , by what I read you will be needing a complete new design ? The way I see it you definitely need davids with your concept. Many tow their dinghy and store it on the transom or fordeck for longer sails , not easy to take your unit off is it not ? Please dont see this as criticism but as requested feedback. Will the two poles be sticking out permanently ? I suppose it's the housing for the engines shafts , lowering the propellors no ? Infact is it possible to raise or lower the props ? I sometimes lift or raise my outboard , be it petrol or elektro , when getting into shallow waters. Maybe you could apply some hinges on the top of the teansom to flip the unit up ? Not sure if I express myself in an understandable manner though. Why not use the poles to put a solarpanel on ? Would combine aesthetics with functionality no ? What is the thrust of the motors you use now ? Regards - storage on deck or somewhere else is not a problem - it is specially designed to support it - you just unplug and take the motor - very light and easy job - and after that store the dinghy with the box ( containing the electronic + battery ) - the general idea is once you mount the box to the plank you never remove it as there is no need for this - you plug and unplug the motor if needed - getting on shore no probs also - a small wheels on the props protectors does the job greatly - yes the motors can be raised or lowered - specially by design - we are thinking about plugable battery also for the future - solar panels are foldable - will post a picture also - 3 panels x 20W when they fold they can be stored on the inside part of the real plank of the dinghy - the idea is when the dinghy is not in use you just unfold them on the dinghy floor and connect to the unit - thrust - currently the prototype is working with 2 x 350W (total = 72lbs) motors and I do not like the max speed - but we solved the problem today with changing the props with 2 x bigger pitch ( originally we had the thrust but not the speed - now I feel a lot better)
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Post by vasko on Jun 28, 2016 13:25:01 GMT
you will just need a box with smaller distance between the motor shafts - no probs at all - I plan to produce the enclosure in the first 100 engine on 3D printer and put a carbon cover over it - e.g. completely custom will need to deal with custom battery pack.. but cannot see a real problem - good point btw ! thanks !
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Post by vasko on Jun 28, 2016 13:50:50 GMT
Hi Vasko, Congratulations on a truly magnificent effort, actually constructed, not just a dream. I particularly like your user friendly software interface. It must be very satisfying to see it actually working after all the work you have put into its development. You requested feedback and I know from my career how important this can be to achieving an optimal solution. May I offer the following comments or suggestions in the spirit of your request:- I would like to see the box inside the transom for better spray protection, particularly if you use reverse, and like sailbleu, the motors on a flip up bracket, mounted on the outside end of the same bolts. I can see the obvious similarities with trolling motors with which it has obvious similarities. However I suspect their protection is the slow speed at which they normally operate. When you double your speed, I suspect that not just motors but also propellors may need some form of mechanical protection. Perhaps some sort of Kort nozzle principle around the propellors might be possible. It is hard to be sure from the photo, but I suspect that water can pool on the top of the unit and this will eventually penetrate one or more of the many seals. I suspect that your carbon fibre version will need rounded corners to be self draining and the openings slightly raised. If the box is on the inside, the foreward face will be available and might provide more favourable locations than the top. I assume that you will also consider the long term sealing of the enclosure while still being maintenance friendly, just in case a capacitor or FET needs replacing sometime. I am not so sure on the usefulness of solar panels, I suspect that even in our sunny clime, a panel large enough to to make a significant contribution to propulsion energy will be more like a full length sun shade, great for fuel saving and staying cool, but difficult to store on deck. I am not sure of a small maintenance panel, it is good for lead acid, but perhaps not so useful for LiPo? However a removable panel in the floor might sometimes be useful for a slow recharge if the usage allows this. Congratulations again on a great project and imaginative implementation. rene460 Thanks A LOT ! all suggestions ideas are very welcome ! - water - everything is not only splash-proof - but submersible - IP-68 ( including teh 2 x USB socket charger to charge devices from the engine - e.g. no worries - the small black box on the top - has the emergency buttons - for manual control - LCD screen and inside are GPS antenna and compass - as they cannot be placed inside the aluminium box - when the box become from plastic the top black box will disappear. - solars - 60W - in worse case about 2ah x 8h = 16ah = about 30-45 minutes motoring - e.g. no need for additional charge if you are careful and not lazy to not plug the panels when dinghy is not in use - the panels place is on the dingy floor and they fold near the stern plank of the dinghy - setup is tested and working well - no issues here - and of course they are optional - but if it is me - I will never buy a electric outboard without proper solars. - Li - battery - current I try 3 types: 1. 18650 total 82ah - without any special balancing seems to work really well so far - but still if one battery is gone the full pack will be gone - charging current that can be consumed 40ah = charging time for about 90%+ 2.5h, 2. LiFePo4 - 40ah - my favourite so far 4 cells x 40ah with cell balancing - max charging current 20ah = charging time for about 90%+ 2.5h - but you need to run the engine or proper powerful shore power charger for the boat as the voltage required is 14.4 to be able to charge to 100+ if 12.6v only available from main boat batteries then only 60-70% can be charged. 3. Li-Ti - 40ah - with cell balancing - can be charged extremely fast if you have powerful source e.g. alternator - can be charged in full for about 1/2h !!! - but will be a expensive with luxury top version of the engine
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Post by hoppy on Jun 28, 2016 16:05:09 GMT
How about including an external battery connector and offer a long range external battery pack. Do you have a way of full manual control without a phone? You don't want to be ashore surfing on your phone and killing the battery and then be stuck
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Post by rene460 on Jun 29, 2016 10:50:14 GMT
Hi Vasko,
You seem to have it all well covered, even including my thoughts about the GPS element location, which occurred to me after I signed off. I have noticed how long my Tom Tom and my hand held GPS take to find satellites if I try and switch them on indoors.
Regarding the problem of battery charging from the main house battery, road caravans have the same problem when charging from the vehicle battery while travelling, due to voltage loss in the long leads from the front of the tow vehicle, even though the alternator is operating. It backs off because the voltage is ok at its end of the wire as we all know, and despite its potential(!), provides only 1 or 2 amps.
They often install a DC-DC booster device at the distant battery to increase the voltage to the 14.5 V or so necessary to obtain a full charge. I believe these devices are readily available from car or caravan accessory outlets, though I only know of a source for kit versions, which may even suit you better - try Jaycar Australia - but I expect you could get them closer to home, and install it as part of your box. I have often thought we should use these on board to properly charge a forward bow thruster battery which also suffers the same problem. (First I need a bow thruster, but that is a discussion for another thread.)
To be able to recharge in a reasonable time from the house battery, which would then be recharged over time by the ships solar panels, would be a really useful feature.
Development is an evolving process and eventually has to give way to production, and later continuous improvement.
rene460
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Post by MickeyB on Jun 29, 2016 11:38:03 GMT
Using my extended (cough cough) paint skills - have you considered this as an idea? Makes it nice and neat as well.... Mike
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Post by vasko on Jun 29, 2016 21:39:26 GMT
How about including an external battery connector and offer a long range external battery pack. Do you have a way of full manual control without a phone? You don't want to be ashore surfing on your phone and killing the battery and then be stuck currently there is rudimentary manual control with buttons up and own for the speed of every motor - the buttons are used also for resetting the two bluetooths to be able to connect new phone - not very nice to use the manual .. thinking of adding a rudimentary remote with cable btw: the default setup will not be able to get a dinghy on plane.... the main target that I have in mind it the people that have similar needs like me - getting to shore and back easy , economical, and quite - e.g. about 1/2h running daily the dinghy per day most of the time - for extensive running - a hi-perf Li-Ti battery pack will be preferred as can be charged in minutes if a hi-perf alternator is available...
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Post by vasko on Jun 29, 2016 21:45:23 GMT
Using my extended (cough cough) paint skills - have you considered this as an idea? Makes it nice and neat as well.... Mike yes I have - I even found a french made electric outboard with solar panel attached to the top of the outboard - produced with EU funding my thinking currently is that if you use the dinghy about 1/2 hour a day the solars 60W will do the job, if you expect to use it more juts connecting the charging module to the house battery system while running on engine will do the other 50% charging for about an hour with standard battery pack e.g. max charging capacity 25amps , with Li-Ti battery and 100a alternator you can charge for 15 min
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Post by sailbleu on Jul 9, 2016 8:01:11 GMT
I was thinking , why not build in a depth sounder , would be a great feature The only thing you need is a transponder which can be set in the box , some software to relay everything to the display or/and via wifi to smartphone. Could be an option , but a very handy one.
I would also try to make the box tiltable , that way you put the dinghy on the pontoon ( like in one of your pictures) without having to take the propellors off . A fixed box is in my opinion a wrong approach , again , not everyone has davits . A removable box with the standard outboard clamps would be even better. Also tiltable of course. Just flip the unit up , I mentioned it before , you will run into shallow waters sooner or later. This is how I would do it , but then again I'm not commercializing this product.
But you brought me to an idea Vasco . This could very well be an interesting winter project. All it takes is 2 * 86 lbs 24 volt cheap outboards , connect both tiltable transom clamps ( and shafts , with bearing for steering ) and you have close to a 1000 watts real output. Nearly 1.5 HP , beats Torquedo and you always have a redundancy motor just in case. In combo with a lightweight li-ion or lipo battery pack and a solar panel on top of the duo engine setup , you can sail and charge at the same time. But now it looks like I'm competing with you , which is absolutely not the case mind you. My money making days are over , all I want to do now is have fun and keep the neurons active.
Regards
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Post by vasko on Jul 9, 2016 10:26:12 GMT
I was thinking , why not build in a depth sounder , would be a great feature The only thing you need is a transponder which can be set in the box , some software to relay everything to the display or/and via wifi to smartphone. Could be an option , but a very handy one. I would also try to make the box tiltable , that way you put the dinghy on the pontoon ( like in one of your pictures) without having to take the propellors off . A fixed box is in my opinion a wrong approach , again , not everyone has davits . A removable box with the standard outboard clamps would be even better. Also tiltable of course. Just flip the unit up , I mentioned it before , you will run into shallow waters sooner or later. This is how I would do it , but then again I'm not commercializing this product. But you brought me to an idea Vasco . This could very well be an interesting winter project. All it takes is 2 * 86 lbs 24 volt cheap outboards , connect both tiltable transom clamps ( and shafts , with bearing for steering ) and you have close to a 1000 watts real output. Nearly 1.5 HP , beats Torquedo and you always have a redundancy motor just in case. In combo with a lightweight li-ion or lipo battery pack and a solar panel on top of the duo engine setup , you can sail and charge at the same time. But now it looks like I'm competing with you , which is absolutely not the case mind you. My money making days are over , all I want to do now is have fun and keep the neurons active. Regards depth sounder is a easy one - haven't thought that someone will want it.. will increase the price by $5... box tilting etc. that was another idea - have 4 separate elements - two tilltable and dismountable motors, one battery box and one control box - and everything to be changeable easily... ... the down side is that there will be connection cables between the elements and the whole thing will look messy... of course it can be optimised and battery and control box to become one and the battery to slide inside the control box... btw : I'm happy to share the software, charts, results , from where to buy elements etc. if you or someone else what to build a prototype and have fun - btw the 24v stuff is tricky - you will have issue charging from anything different from solar or wind turbine - unless you system on the boat is 24v... Torquedo btw is on 29v ... and my current prototype is outperforming 1003 about 1.5x on power and 2x to 4x on battery and 10...x time to charge btw: the idea all in one box is to be simple - fit and forget - btw - to get in on the beach or pontoon I just need to mount small wheel on the motors.. which is in the design...
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Post by Don Reaves on Jul 9, 2016 11:26:07 GMT
If you add a depth sounder, you can create your own charts of a small bay or lagoon by sending the dinghy out on a search pattern to collect sounding data. Of course, if you're not the only boat, it might be annoying to others...
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