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Post by sailbleu on Jan 13, 2015 8:30:26 GMT
All my recent projects are nearly finished , my diy FS will be rounded up when I get to my boat at the end of the week . The diy flat rope kedge s/s reel is also done , next to the support for which I need to take the exact measurements when on the boat . (will be mailing on both counts very soon Malcolm for the H&T ) Similar to this: www.talkofthedock.com/gear-reviews/anchoring-a-docking/242-quickline-anchoring-rode-on-a-reel/Will be struggling , on my own , with 40kg luggage on friday ,...... really looking forward to that  So ,.... I'm running out of work , and to prevent from falling into a vacuum I thought why not make the preps for a diesel-consumption- meter. I guess this will be it : www.aliexpress.com/item/2015-Liquid-Fuel-Oil-Flow-meter-with-1-2-diesel-gasoline-Gear-flow-sensor/32245078315.htmlBut ! ,........... here we go again  How to take the diesel-return into account ? Does anyone have an idea on how much diesel - % wise - is flowing back to the tank , as the flowmeter (see link) does not deduct this return. It has no connections , wiring or program to compensate. I read here that in some cases this return is negligible , please notice the explanation on the " one or two meters " note. www.seafish.org/media/publications/fs25_03_09_fuel_flow_meters_incl_turnkey.pdfAny experts on the board present ( I know of atleast one >> Electricmonk) ? Thanks Regards |
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Post by Trevor on Jan 13, 2015 12:01:37 GMT
Hey Sailbleu, I once fitted two fuel flow sensors to my twin engine stink boat many moons ago. They were hooked into the chart plotter. Before that I simply had a long stick to dip the tanks. After many days on the water I was very impressed at how fuel efficient my newly acquired flybridge stink boat was. I was saying to my wife, "see, if you take it easy you can get really great fuel economy out of the large Mercruiser inboards". I pulled in to the dock to refuel even though I knew the tanks were quite full ( but best to top up when you can ) and told the fellow that it will not take much fuel but I will top up the tanks anyway. The fuel kept going into the tanks until it was clear the tanks were just about completely empty!!  I was very lucky to even get to the dock. I had forgotten to calibrate the chart potter with the flow sensors!! I feel a bit silly telling this story but we are amongst friends.  The moral of my story is don't forget to calibrate the system. Regards, |
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Post by dbostrom on Jan 13, 2015 17:35:54 GMT
This is not a very easy thing to do (cheaply); quite a few nice aftermarket electronic fuel computers for cars vanished from the market as gasoline fuel injection became more prevalent. Automobile manufacturers generally use the injection timing and flow rate of injectors to calculate what's actually being consumed rather than directly measure flow, which in an electronically-controlled system is at least possible. Not so with a purely mechanical system. Easy to test how much bypass is going on in the fuel loop, even safe with diesel. Quite a bit, probably; the system has to be in regulation after all. One possibility for doing this right is to find a kid who is good with microcontrollers and have them set up an Arduino, Beagle or other cheap MCU board to receive input from two flow meters, calculate difference, send that on to the display. The display won't know it's got a translator in the middle of the conversation. There's nothing fancy about the signal from the flow sensor itself; most any reasonably skilled electronic hobbyist with an interest in microcontrollers could help you with this. |
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 14, 2015 10:00:20 GMT
Suppose I were to put this inline with the return flow. www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-13mm-Gear-flow-sensor-Liquid-Fuel-Oil-Flow-Sensor-Counter-diesel-gasoline-/121527033334The original one would be in the supply line , if I find a way to get the two pulses - supply and return - balanced , meaning , just keep the difference and relay it to the display I would have a fuel flow and total consumption digital meter for less than 100$ . That would be nearly for free , not to speak about the fun/challenge involved installing it. The main, problem is that I just don't know what the return flow is Or even if it's linear - in proportion - to the supply , if that were to be the case than a simple calibrating would get me out the woods. I could also apply or install a select switch to choose sensor 1 and sensor 2 sequentially , deduct the numbers on the spot and get the comsumption figure. Mmmmmm,....... naaa , wouldn't feel happy with that. Guess it's time for some brainstorming on my local and regular electronics board/forum. Not sure if we can work something out in our virtual world , some guys will no doubt like to measure the pulses before building a microprocessor around it. But I can always try. Regards |
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 14, 2015 21:05:57 GMT
The issues you face are many and variable. The return flow is an unknown quantity, a sort of get out if you like for the designer, as long as there is a return flow then the injectors have enough fuel to work with. The bonus is that the fuel gets polished into the bargain. The main reason for low fuel return is a worn out lift pump, if everything is order then return fuel could/should be as high several litres per minute, but in terms of determining how much has been consumed by the engine its a waste of time.
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A "simple" practical solution would be to fit two fuel flow meters with pulsed outputs, connect them to the fuel take off and the fuel return. So one reads all the fuel leaving the tank, the other all the fuel returning. If each was then connected to a counter and you zero them the difference in the readings will be the amount of fuel consumed by the engine.
Edit: just had a quick surf around ebay - my suggested solution is available off the peg for £370ish, or you buy parts that would appear to work together for around £50.
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 15, 2015 6:43:18 GMT
The issues you face are many and variable. The return flow is an unknown quantity, a sort of get out if you like for the designer, as long as there is a return flow then the injectors have enough fuel to work with. The bonus is that the fuel gets polished into the bargain. The main reason for low fuel return is a worn out lift pump, if everything is order then return fuel could/should be as high several litres per minute, but in terms of determining how much has been consumed by the engine its a waste of time. . A "simple" practical solution would be to fit two fuel flow meters with pulsed outputs, connect them to the fuel take off and the fuel return. So one reads all the fuel leaving the tank, the other all the fuel returning. If each was then connected to a counter and you zero them the difference in the readings will be the amount of fuel consumed by the engine. Edit: just had a quick surf around ebay - my suggested solution is available off the peg for £370ish, or you buy parts that would appear to work together for around £50. Electric , that's exactly what I was talking about in my previous post. You know what , I'm just gone buy these items , 1 sensor + display on Aliexpress , and one seperate sensor on ebay. That would make about 90$ to keep me going for a week or so. Hobbies cost money no ? Slightly off topic , but one thing led to another , is this : www.aliexpress.com/item/G1-2-Flow-Water-Sensor-Meter-Digital-LCD-Display-Quantitative-Control-1-30L-min/2047582192.htmlInstall this gadget just after the water pump and you have your total water consumption , beats the tank level indicators no. Two problems though : 1- it's 24 volt , did not found a 12 volt type ,...yet. In case I don't , there's always a boost (step-up) convertor www.aliexpress.com/item/Retail-Wholesale-150W-Boost-Converter-DC-DC-10-32V-to-12-35V-Step-Up-Voltage-Charger/1852091663.html2- I'm running out of places to put all these displays on my boat.  Would like to keep this topîc running though , more chance finding the magic bullit with regards to combining/converting 2 pulses (two sensors supply/return) into a useful one . Regards |
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 8:08:39 GMT
the kit you describe for measuring water consumption was standard on Jeanneau around 2000 - 2004 I wrote something on here somewhere on how to change the battery in the counter - its 3v not connected to the ship supply in any way.
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Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 8:32:40 GMT
I was thinking of getting one but only if I could connect up to NMEA2000 and was thinking of www.maretron.com/products/ffm100.phpThis thread has blown the costs of this out of the water as I did not realise this unit does not include the flow sensor and that I need 2. As the Maetron sensors cost the same as the flow meter (approx $350) the total cost has tripled. I think I would rather put the money towards hookers a wind or water generator to increase my battery charging and lessen the need to run the motor. |
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 15, 2015 9:18:30 GMT
the kit you describe for measuring water consumption was standard on Jeanneau around 2000 - 2004 I wrote something on here somewhere on how to change the battery in the counter - its 3v not connected to the ship supply in any way. I'm sure it wasn't the same type Electric , as the Chinese flow meters are new. It does look appealing doesn't it. I'm not that much of a fan for those tank level meters, too rough and inaccurate. I guess I'll just look for my creditcard again ...  Regards |
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 9:32:45 GMT
jeanneau used a Kubler Codix 130 counter and a standard (domestic) pulse water meter, all in cost around $150 ish and as you say far more accurate than the digital level meters calibrated in 1/8 s of a tank full. 130_en.pdf (407.19 KB) 130_en.pdf (407.19 KB) |
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 9:52:25 GMT
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 15, 2015 9:53:24 GMT
I was thinking of getting one but only if I could connect up to NMEA2000 and was thinking of www.maretron.com/products/ffm100.phpThis thread has blown the costs of this out of the water as I did not realise this unit does not include the flow sensor and that I need 2. As the Maetron sensors cost the same as the flow meter (approx $350) the total cost has tripled. I think I would rather put the money towards hookers a wind or water generator to increase my battery charging and lessen the need to run the motor. Yeah , I know , also love the convertion of all data into NMEA , it just these convertors are so overpriced. Oh boy I always get caught (but I love it ) in off topic and sidetrack discussions , let me give you an example on how delicious (funny word but appropriate ) conversion of data to NMEA & Seatalk - vice versa - can be.  I have this baby on board translating all Seatalk , Nmea (gpas-receiver & AIS data) into wifi relaying to my ipad and displaying it into my electronic charts also allowing me to even change course , command the autopilot , via the ipad. I'm sure the designer of this wifi-multiplexer is capable of building a device so analog data gets coded into Nmea. Will contact the guy soon and ask him if he's interested in spending some time on it. I know the new plotters have a menu so engine data can be displayed but not before it's been translated into Nmea. Having such an option would decrease the number of displays on my boat substantially Now we're very close in getting into a debate about whether to have one display for all info/data , or keep everthing separated . One central display that goes weird makes you as blind as a bat. Mmmmmm , very very off topic now. Back to the flow meter  Regards |
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 10:39:19 GMT
Sailbleu "I have this baby on board translating all Seatalk , Nmea (gpas-receiver & AIS data) into wifi relaying to my ipad and displaying it into my electronic charts also allowing me to even change course , command the autopilot , via the ipad." You do have serious problem here  why not just sail the boat? after I had done a few 1000 mile passages without any help from electrons I felt liberated. only trying to help - honest  spent my working life up to my neck in "technology" pipes, wires, engines, robots, computers, LANS, WANS, VPN, relays, sensors, actuators, and displays - boat wind sails and sea is all that required and a chart and compass if you can see land and are getting nervous. chill |
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Post by sailbleu on Jan 15, 2015 11:19:20 GMT
Of course you're right electricmonk , but I'm not just your average controlfreak ,well infact I am a bit , I also like a challenge . And I do feel liberated on the open see , deserted anchorages , abandonded beaches , all this whilst monitoring the power/water/diesel supply , hotwater and my wife's body temp , In many ways I feel 30 again when on my boat away from the crowd , all the rules , restrictions and regulations , all the noise and fanatic religious horrors happening these days. BUT !!!........I DO need to know where I am , what's around me , what's the boiler and sea temp , solar supply , engine temp , remaining water , wind speed , depth , and what time it is.  It stronger than myself you see. No , no I understand you completely , I only wish I could get in that same stae of mind. I'll give it another 10 years Regards |
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Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 11:41:03 GMT
I was thinking of getting one but only if I could connect up to NMEA2000 and was thinking of www.maretron.com/products/ffm100.phpThis thread has blown the costs of this out of the water as I did not realise this unit does not include the flow sensor and that I need 2. As the Maetron sensors cost the same as the flow meter (approx $350) the total cost has tripled. I think I would rather put the money towards hookers a wind or water generator to increase my battery charging and lessen the need to run the motor. Yeah , I know , also love the convertion of all data into NMEA , it just these convertors are so overpriced. Oh boy I always get caught (but I love it ) in off topic and sidetrack discussions , let me give you an example on how delicious (funny word but appropriate ) conversion of data to NMEA & Seatalk - vice versa - can be. I have this baby on board translating all Seatalk , Nmea (gpas-receiver & AIS data) into wifi relaying to my ipad and displaying it into my electronic charts also allowing me to even change course , command the autopilot , via the ipad. I'm sure the designer of this wifi-multiplexer is capable of building a device so analog data gets coded into Nmea. Will contact the guy soon and ask him if he's interested in spending some time on it. I know the new plotters have a menu so engine data can be displayed but not before it's been translated into Nmea. Having such an option would decrease the number of displays on my boat substantially Now we're very close in getting into a debate about whether to have one display for all info/data , or keep everthing separated . One central display that goes weird makes you as blind as a bat. Mmmmmm , very very off topic now. Back to the flow meter Regards Back off topic www.navstore.com/maretron-nmea-2000-analog-engine-monitoring-system-ems100-01.html& www.navstore.com/maretron-nmea-2000-yanmar-harness-ems100-accessory-emsyrm01.html |
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Post by hoppy on Jan 15, 2015 11:54:22 GMT
Sailbleu "I have this baby on board translating all Seatalk , Nmea (gpas-receiver & AIS data) into wifi relaying to my ipad and displaying it into my electronic charts also allowing me to even change course , command the autopilot , via the ipad." You do have serious problem here why not just sail the boat? after I had done a few 1000 mile passages without any help from electrons I felt liberated. only trying to help - honest spent my working life up to my neck in "technology" pipes, wires, engines, robots, computers, LANS, WANS, VPN, relays, sensors, actuators, and displays - boat wind sails and sea is all that required and a chart and compass if you can see land and are getting nervous. chill LOL I like my gadgets but would like to not overload Jessabbé with too many, but it is a tough challenge I am struggling with |
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Post by electricmonk on Jan 15, 2015 13:49:20 GMT
Sailbleu
"Of course you're right electricmonk , but I'm not just your average controlfreak ,well infact I am a bit , I also like a challenge ."
OK then here's a challenge, sail for a month in waters you know well without a GPS or electronic charts, just an echo sounder compass (magnetic) and eyeballs, and keep off the iron topsail as well.
we have a saying in Suffolk (England) the pig wont any fatter if you keep weighing it - oh so very true so wean your self off all gadgets, if their digital and youy can afford them then they're probably inaccurate anyway.
Chill
fair winds and clear horizons
David
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Post by rene460 on Jan 17, 2015 12:11:40 GMT
Alternatively sailbleu, take up your own challenge and do it yourself in your usual great style. I seem to remember that you used Arduino to measure current some time back, so you can easily do a counter and display with the necessary calculations. As electricmonk says you need two fuel flow sensors, one for supply and other for return, and the third for water if you want to include it.
Certainly Picaxe has functions to count (and even time) pulses and I am sure Arduino also has them. Assuming around 10 pulses per litre, the pulses do not come too fast for either system to count the two fuel meters and almost certainly they are quick enough to handle three so you can include water as well. The main thing is to have a spec sheet for your chosen sensors. Of course, checking the calibration accuracy requires a little more ingenuity, but not difficult. And don't throw out your level gauge until you are sure.
rene460
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Post by sailbleu on Feb 24, 2015 11:06:06 GMT
Getting back to the fuel flow meter ; I've received all the parts and i am still strugling on how to compensate the return flow from the injection fuel pump. Is it safe to say that the supply - comming from the dieseltank - outways the return going back to the tank  ? I would think so yes ? If that were be the case , would it be possible to make a return flow pick-in after the flowmeter (sensor) itself , so this way I would automatically compensate the return flow by using it as a non measured/ monitored supply . In other words , the return would not go back to the tank and would not be responsable for a false reading of the consumption , but would be used as a part of the supply so the actual amount of fuel running through the flowmeter (sensor) is being reduced and brought back to the real fuel consumption . My only concern is ,....would it effect the performance of the injection fuel pump in any way ?? Any comments please ? Thanks Regards |
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Post by Don Reaves on Feb 24, 2015 11:38:57 GMT
It seems to me that if this were a viable option, engine manufacturers would route the fuel this way rather than returning it to the tank.
There is pressure on the fuel as it enters the engine. The return fuel line doesn't have any appreciable pressure toward the engine. If you changed the routing the way you propose, this would no longer be the case.
Don
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Post by sailbleu on Feb 24, 2015 13:59:28 GMT
Don , the flowmeter (sensor) will be installed in the suction line coming from the tank before any pump is involved.
The return would be attached right behind the sensor.
Regards
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I was very lucky to even get to the dock.
? I would think so yes ?