chrisj
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chrisj on Mar 20, 2014 11:12:26 GMT
Hiya
I am going to be in need of a new furling mainsail and wondered what type I should get. (material, short/long battens, no battens)
I am nervous reading all the comments about furlers jamming as I will be short handed most of the time.
I am more of a slow plodder than a racer by the way and would trade reliability for speed every time.
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Post by On y va on Mar 20, 2014 16:31:47 GMT
Hi Chrisj,
Long battens are nice, as they give the opportunity to create some roach on your main and you can gain quite a few square metres with that. But, they are a nightmare to take out and in and if you have an emergency with your main, these things become quite an issue. So I would not recommend these really.
Short battens is a better option that no battens in my view. Although they don´t create much more M2 but do stop the irritating flapping, many non-battened furling sails have. (Ultimately, if one has an non-battened mainsail, one should every time tie down the leech line and release this line, when furling in again. But nobody does this really.)
I have bought many furling mainsails for various Beneteau´s and Jeanneau´s and one type of cloth I liked a lot was Hood Vektron. This is like an upgraded dacron, with the Vectran fibre woven into it. Very strong and it remains in shape longer and is that little bit thinner, which means less chances of jamming. And it is not crazily priced. Also, because Vektron sailcloth is fully woven it is not subject to the delamination and handling problems inherent in laminate construction. It also does not suffer from the mildew and mold problems often associated with Laminated sails.
But, if you have a bit more budget, I recently installed a furling main by Quantum, which is the MC6000 Membrane material. Super stuff, furl in and out like lighting and a beautiful shape. This particular main had 4 vertical, short battens.....but came at a price. In that respect the Quantum cruising laminate CR2500 would be a good compromise. Quantum deliver a lot of sails to Jeanneau´s, so my advise is to go and enquire with them. And ask Hood to give you a quote too and take it from there.
Good luck!
Marco
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 21, 2014 8:04:31 GMT
Reassuring to see Marco's comment about Vectran cloth as I have a new mainsail on order (collect at end of month) which is being built in Vectran by Peter Sanders, he tells me that Vectran was exclusively a Hood fabric but is now available from other suppliers as well. I have a standard main and a Selden spar which can take Harken cars for the fully battened option, so looking forward to easier dropping of the sail and more shape. Can't comment about the rest of the thread as it is re: inmast furling.
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Post by chuckr on Mar 21, 2014 9:55:44 GMT
i can not comment on the batten issue but i can comment on the jamming issue -- in my opinion this is so overblown it is silly -- it seems that many "traditional" sailors think you have to have conventional rigging or you simply can not sail we have a Jeanneau DS40 and love her -- we got her new and she is the first boat we ever owned and only boat we will ever own -- we did take sailing lessons and learned how to raise and lower a sail and put in a reef ect - but once on our boat with a furling main we love it -- we have several thousand miles under sail and never had an issue getting the sail in -- the only issues we have had is getting it out when we did not put it in correctly -- in particular in the beginning when we did not realize that the boom had to be at a slight up hill angle - the only other time we have had a problem was when we incorrectly put the sail in after taking it down to get it repaired in horta after our atlantic crossing - and all that took was going up on deck and pulling it out my hand to change the angle of the outhaul --
as information we have been full time cruisers for over 6 years and sailed the east coast of the usa 2 1/2 times, the bahamas twice, then from florida to mexico to colombia across to jamaica down to trinidad back to antigua across to the azores on to portugal to spain on to the baleric islands down to sardina and on to tunisia where we are currently sitting for the winter
and by the way on the atlantic crossing we had winds in the 25-35k range and SoulMates simply wanted to go but with 3+m seas we had to slow her down to keep from pounding to much and were able to adjust both the main and jib from the cockpit to maintain good sail area and good speed without pounding and yet enough speed to keep from falling off the waves -- at times we had very little main out but were able to balance the boat using both sails
these are just our thoughts and we are not great sailors - only know what works for us
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 21, 2014 17:23:06 GMT
these are just our thoughts and we are not great sailors - only know what works for us Hi Chuck I disagree - you certainly are both great sailors in my book and should be in everyone's - what a voyage. Enjoy your stop over in Tunisia Malcolm
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chrisj
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chrisj on Mar 21, 2014 17:39:15 GMT
i can not comment on the batten issue but i can comment on the jamming issue -- in my opinion this is so overblown it is silly…… It may well be generally overblown but in this particular case the boat I am looking to purchase has problems furling it's main. It is a 2005 Maxi-Roach so I believe it could be at the end of it's life now. I am worried that I won't make the right choice for it's replacement.
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Post by ianpowolny on Mar 22, 2014 6:08:48 GMT
Chuck, where are all the pictures so we can see you guys sailing? Ian
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Post by chuckr on Mar 22, 2014 15:01:09 GMT
malcom -- can i put a video on this forum? got a couple if they will load and i don't kill my dongle
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Post by On y va on Mar 22, 2014 15:52:42 GMT
i can not comment on the batten issue but i can comment on the jamming issue -- in my opinion this is so overblown it is silly…… It may well be generally overblown but in this particular case the boat I am looking to purchase has problems furling it's main. It is a 2005 Maxi-Roach so I believe it could be at the end of it's life now. I am worried that I won't make the right choice for it's replacement. It is not that overblown. Ok, it is rubbish to say people with furling mains cannot sail, but furling mains are much more cause of problems and prone to issues than normal sails. Furling mains usually have issues, when you really don´t want it. I.e. in 40 knots of wind and the furler jams with the sail half out or the furling line breaking on the worm wheel in the mast, with the sail shooting out to full. Full batten furling mains, in my view, are downright dangerous, as you cannot even drop them easily or quickly. The 3 biggest issues I have seen in all my years in dealing with yachts are generators, aircons and.......main sail furlers. But, as I always say: each to their own, as there are also advantages to furling mains. I.e. my father, who is 84, still sails his boat only because he has a furling main and genua.
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Post by ianpowolny on Mar 22, 2014 16:28:29 GMT
Chris, our furling main is from Z-Spars. I spoke to them a few months ago and found out that our mast isn't suitable for a battened sail - not enough cross sectional area. It might be worth checking your mast can accept battens. Like you we're not in to racing so really like our furling main and have had to furl it in up to F8. Ian
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Post by On y va on Mar 22, 2014 16:43:30 GMT
Chris, our furling main is from Z-Spars. I spoke to them a few months ago and found out that our mast isn't suitable for a battened sail - not enough cross sectional area. It might be worth checking your mast can accept battens. Like you we're not in to racing so really like our furling main and have had to furl it in up to F8. Ian Good point, Z-spar profiles have relatively narrow cross sections and Jeanneau did "undersize" their mast a bit too to save costs. But, one could ask for "memory metal" horizontal battens. The near enough suit any furling system, as they are waver thin. If possible, I would always go for some for of battens, to at least have some sail shape.
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Post by alenka on Mar 22, 2014 22:33:30 GMT
-- the only issues we have had is getting it out when we did not put it in correctly -- in particular in the beginning when we did not realize that the boom had to be at a slight up hill angle - the only other time we have had a problem was when we incorrectly put the sail in after taking it down to get it repaired in horta after our atlantic crossing - and all that took was going up on deck and pulling it out my hand to change the angle of the outhaul -- ________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Ditto to the above. The only problem we have had so far (touch wood) was trying to take the sail out with the vang under tension. The previous owner (who also kept sailing into his 80's courtesy of in-mast) advised to keep everything fairly taught putting the sail away and, apart from a little tension on the furling line, everything else a little loose when taking it out. I have heard some people say to keep tension on the vang and lines performing both but it was a technique that didn't seem to work for us! Like Chris we too shall be in the market for a new main sail in a year or two for our 43 ds. My leaning was towards a maxi-roach with battens - this tread has proved most enlightening!
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Post by alenka on Mar 22, 2014 22:46:59 GMT
Chuck,
I have just re-read your post. Just confirm if you will that you are putting the uphill angle in the boom, Leech to Luff when you are furling; And not Luff to Leech when hauling out.
Thanks.
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chrisj
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chrisj on Mar 23, 2014 11:55:32 GMT
Thanks for all you comments guys (n Gals ?)
The mast is a Sparcraft, :F460 1580 557 403 but I'm not sure what furler Jeanneau put inside as standard. Perhaps the slot is the same ?
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Post by ianpowolny on Mar 23, 2014 16:03:28 GMT
As with Alenka we also made the same mistake of having the main to taught when we first started with the furling main. That was due to a general lack of any kind of real sailing experience. I found this article a useful aide www.zsparsuk.com/#!furling-mast-help/c1drb to get us started. I think this is based on not having a rigid vang. We now loosen the vang and let it hold up the boom when we furl the main. In light winds we also furl from the port side as the mast profile is more open on that side. We aren't to concerned about holding tension on the out-haul as the wind gives sufficient tension when furling even when head to wind. I think we have a Z-901 mast. I'd be really interested to hear about how you guys get on adding battens to your in-mast furling mainsails as I think will also be in the market for new sails next year. Ian
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chrisj
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chrisj on Mar 24, 2014 15:09:54 GMT
I am leaning in the direction of North sails. There seem to be two types that might suit my requirements
In Mast Furling Mainsail Polyester Radian NDR 7.5 (dacron)
In Mast Furling Mainsail Soft Norlam 7.0 NLXW (laminated)
It would seem that the laminate might be better as it's lighter but will not last as long as the dacron one apparently.
Any thoughts guys n gals ?
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Post by MartyB on Mar 24, 2014 16:51:34 GMT
I have a soft nor lam jib. Has a LOT of mildew, and it did not last near as long as I had hoped. On the other hand, I do have some what I would call more true laminates, ie tape drive equals, and an Ullman tri axis sail. Those have no mildew, and are keeping there shape much better. The tri axel laminate is a panel sewn mylar out side with scrim in the middle, with a light layer of taffeta on the outside for some addition strength. This would be my first choice for a sail material. Probably will be my next main when that time comes. The jib pulls every bit was well as a string style at half the cost. In the middle of a good quality dacron and the norlam cost.
Marty
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chrisj
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chrisj on Mar 24, 2014 17:05:13 GMT
I have a soft nor lam jib. Has a LOT of mildew, and it did not last near as long as I had hoped. On the other hand, I do have some what I would call more true laminates, ie tape drive equals, and an Ullman tri axis sail. Those have no mildew, and are keeping there shape much better. The tri axel laminate is a panel sewn mylar out side with scrim in the middle, with a light layer of taffeta on the outside for some addition strength. This would be my first choice for a sail material. Probably will be my next main when that time comes. The jib pulls every bit was well as a string style at half the cost. In the middle of a good quality dacron and the norlam cost. Marty Thanks Marty What is your sailing area (thinking about a reason for mildew) ?
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Post by MartyB on Mar 24, 2014 18:54:54 GMT
Chris,
I'm in the NW US, ie puget sound/salish sea. We do get our share of colder foggy days etc. some rain, ie about 36" a year over many days. Moisture in cabins etc is an issue here. I am not the only one with mold issues with norlam. Go to some of the larger multi user/country forums, this is a common issue with norlam. Not sure about "other" brands Dacron Mylar sails. May have something in the north proprietary blend that is causing the issue vs say an ullman/quantum equal.
I also will admit, I doubt I will ever buy another Dacron again. If I had a boat over 40', that would be a definite no Dacron. The stretch Dacron has vs laminates is enough to screw up sail shape etc, so one is not sailign was well as one could. As you noted, the cloth is a bit lighter, so in lighter winds you will do better. Along with being stronger, it will handle higher winds than Dacron. Then the cost is not that much more than Dacron, on par with some of the dacron/mylar sails. The other issue or not depending upon view. Dacron will lose every year say 10% of its original shape, stretch use etc per year if it will last 10 yrs. A laminate will be 3-5%, then about yr 8 it will drastically increase to 0% at yr 10 just like the Dacron. or in some cases, be blown out about yr 9 or so. so maybe a year less use, but when used, the shape, speed, less heeling etc will be better. Not sure there is a right or wrong answer here......take and choose your poison and enjoy it while you can!
I know of one fellow that went from a 140 dacron to a tri-axes 155 genoa, the new sail rolled up smaller and sailed much better.
Marty
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Post by Tommy T on Mar 25, 2014 10:21:13 GMT
Aloha, I am interested the discussion of the angle of the boom and the angle of the outhaul when deploying the main sail. I have found that before I leave the dock I must grab the clew and pull down and out toward the port side to get the main out. Once under pressure from the wind I can not seem to get it out.
Any discussion?
Tommy
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Post by MalcolmP on Mar 25, 2014 10:57:29 GMT
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Post by Tommy T on Mar 25, 2014 23:42:56 GMT
Aloha! Thanks to one and all that responded. My sail is old so it will be new sail time.
T
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Post by alenka on Mar 26, 2014 8:51:42 GMT
I bought my SO 43 DS last year and was told by the rigger that my main sail needed replacing. He actuall got it jammed trying to take it out for inspection.
It was unjammed by first applying a quick tug to the furling line followed by a tug on the outhaul and repeating till the crease was pulled out. He couldn't get it to furl back into the mast without creasing until his assistant (a yachtmaster instructor) suggested the main halyard was too tight. The minute it was eased, hey presto, in and out as smooth as silk.
I still get an odd crease from time to time, but knock on wood, no jams.
Last year we covered 3,000 nms using the sail and could still overtake Bavaria 44's as if they were stood still so I guess there is maybe another season still left in the old sail.
Much valuable information in this thread, even if some is contradictory. Guess boats are showing there feminine side and proving they like to be treated as individuals. I will certainly be checking my boom angle if only to establish that it is currently set correctly.
However, I would suggest to anyone experiencing difficulties to first check their halyard tension and try making adjustments. Too tight it seems is as bad as to slack.
I thought I knew what sail I was going to buy as a replacement, now I am not so sure!
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chrisj
Junior Member
Posts: 20
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Post by chrisj on Mar 26, 2014 11:50:11 GMT
Me neither
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Post by MartyB on Mar 26, 2014 13:09:25 GMT
Ended up in a similar talk with a person in YC meeting last night........He even has a 43ds to boot! have two of them in YC actually........they make up 2/3 of the jeanneau boats.
Marty
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