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Post by J349er on Jan 8, 2014 16:33:43 GMT
Hello,
Local dealer says Jeanneau's factory canvas is not that good and recommends that they be made locally which will likely cost twice as much... Any thoughts on this? Also, are Jeanneau's performance sails a good buy or is it better to go with a third party sails maker?
Happy New Year to all!
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Post by MalcolmP on Jan 9, 2014 9:49:19 GMT
Hello, Local dealer says Jeanneau's factory canvas is not that good and recommends that they be made locally which will likely cost twice as much... Any thoughts on this? Also, are Jeanneau's performance sails a good buy or is it better to go with a third party sails maker? Happy New Year to all! Short question that has numerous and potentially long answers (and opinions...) Briefly in my view it depends what you plan to do with your boat. The standard sails fitted on most production boats will be made with Dacron cross cut panels. These will tend to work well enough in first few seasons for cruising - especially if you look after them (eg don't leave the outhaul tensioned, keep them covered when not in use, remove in the winter etc etc). If you are racing then performance sails probably made of a laminate and with a tri-radial design will make big performance improvements but may have downsides for cruisers such as there is more mildew risk and tend to have poor UV performance (an issue in tropics especially) they probably will only last a few seasons. More race orientated boats like the Sun Fasts normally did not have sails supplied to allow the owner to make the initial choice On my own 39i from 2008 the OEM sails were cross-cut Quantum sails, the genoa is still in pretty good shape, but the main, whilst looking OK from a distance, has definitely become baggy in the last couple of seasons, so I have just ordered a replacement, which will be fully battened cross cut made from Vektran I did quite a lot of research before my choice as there is not really any cheap option (even if you get direct from China) I don't think that "local" is definitely better than "global" There are bad local lofts, so take care. Many many sails are made offshore in China and Sri Lanka, but the workmanship and materials can still be very good. Personally I like to support local economies, but you may well find that especially on the lower cost options that your "local" sail maker will source the sail from one of the mega-lofts anyway Below is a summary on some of the options for predominantly cruising mainsails: Tri-radial panel layouts:
Radial designs are essential if you select a laminate and make smoother sails:
Warp Drive Dacron: 100% woven Dacron with crimpless warp yarns.
Cruiselam: A laminate comprising a polyester scrim encapsulated with mylar with a layer of taffeta on both sides. Should be treated to make UV resistant and mildew resistant coating on the taffeta.
Hydranet radial. Hydranet is a woven fabric that includes Dyneema in the warp. The method used to weave this fabric ensures that the Dyneema warp yarns are straight and therefore suitable for the radial panel layout. Dyneema is very rugged and very UV resistant making it an excellent sail for durability in hot climates.
Crosscut panel layouts
If a woven fabric is chosen then a crosscut construction is the better choice especially for high aspect ratio mainsails.
Premium Dacron. Old fashioned in appearance but still very viable if the correct quality is selected.
Vektron used to be an exclusive Hood fabric but is now is available to all Sailmakers from different sources. Vektron has Vectran yarns incorporated within the weft which significantly increases the resistance to stretch.
Hydranet, a crosscut fabric containing a “net” of Dyneema. This fabric is only suitable for high aspect sails due to the poor bias. Dyneema is a very rugged yarn with good resistance to UV and flex
Hope this helps - I am sure others will have different opinions and there is a lot on the web if you do some research Malcolm |
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Post by MalcolmP on Jan 9, 2014 10:00:56 GMT
Also, are Jeanneau's performance sails a good buy or is it better to go with a third party sails maker? Sorry forgot your final question. You need to know what the performance sails are made from and it might well be worth then getting a couple of quotes to compare. I don't know if you can opt not to take the standard sails and/or get a credit, but if you have to buy them anyway, it may be much better value to upgrade to the performance option. Guess it all comes down yo your budget and priorities. When we bought our boat I was balancing the options list with things like radar and heating. Overall I got 6 seasons out of the standard sails and the genoa probably has another couple of seasons left (when I will replace with a tri-radial) so I think that is very reasonable (we use the boat a lot...) Malcolm |
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Post by J349er on Jan 9, 2014 13:04:32 GMT
Thanks Malcom,
These are very good points and is overall very helpful. Anyone with feedback on Jeanneau's factory canvas? Are they any good?
Best.
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Post by svsecco on Jan 9, 2014 22:08:42 GMT
We looked at the canvas offered by the factory when we ordered our 45DS but were turned off by the aesthetics and the complete lack of customization. We went with a local canvas shop that did the canvas on my 39DS.
We had a dodger, bimini and connector made for about $8,000 US. The bimini is absolutely enormous and covers most of the cockpit. The dodger has removable sides, a center window that flips up, grab rails on both sides and a elkhide covered grabrail along the aft edge. One of our requirements was to use struts in lieu of straps to help support the dodger and bimini.
Chris
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Post by MartyB on Jan 10, 2014 2:16:53 GMT
Being as you are asking about both canvas and performance sails. my swag is you are not racing really seriously if at all. In that case the tri radials sails may work well......IF resonably serious in racing.....I would buy the dacron sails as my cruise/sail to race sails, and get a set of laminates that would be better than the std performance sails. IE a string sail such as Norths 3dl or Ullmans fiberpath. ullmans triaxil radial is another better laminate upgrade than the std triradial, from comparing my 140 triaxil to my fiberpath.....the triaxel is a strong pulling sail. Way better than a typical dacron/mylar laminate or dacron.
From a canvas part of the equation, assuming a dodger or bimini canvas option. I would go local. As I would want all the above removable with three max bolts, pins/cotter pins or equal. So when we go race, we are not slowed down from the canvas part. I would also get the removable drum furler option on the jib.......not sure what those inmast mainsail furlers do......but that is another issue/story.
Marty
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Post by J349er on Jan 10, 2014 3:20:14 GMT
Thanks guys, helpful feedback. Not planning to race so, the standard sails set may just be good enough. I like to have a connector between dodger and bimini, a removable front window on the dodger but it looks like the factory canvas does not have any of this so, locally made is probably a better option.
Cheers,
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Post by MartyB on Jan 10, 2014 5:20:43 GMT
At the end of the day, if there is something that you know you will be VERY PARTICULAR about, have it done local. Like for me, removing of the dodger etc VERY EASY is a must. Also I have seen some such that one can not use the cabin top winches but half way around, or the winch handle hits the side of the dodger! Why bother having a winch!
While current boat does not have a dodger. those are a few things I would make sure were not issues. As such, I really doubt the one from Jeanneau will have these items thought about, nor will they have the things you want thought about.
The performance sails could be worth it......THen again, if it were me, I would still get dacron, and upgrade to some of the lessor cost what I would call true laminates after 3-4 seasons depending upon how much you sail etc. You do get better performance, less heeling etc with better sails.
marty
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Post by Quiddle on Jan 10, 2014 7:22:26 GMT
Hello, Local dealer says Jeanneau's factory canvas is not that good and recommends that they be made locally which will likely cost twice as much... Any thoughts on this? I have just had the stitching re-done on my 2007 Jeanneau sprayhood and main cover. The fabric is still sound. I am quite happy with the quality and fit of the canvas which is at least as good as sailmaker products on my previous boats. |
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Post by MalcolmP on Jan 10, 2014 10:14:41 GMT
It might just be an English thing, but I now realise that the "canvas" in the original question was not in regard to sails - I tend to think of my "canvas" being my sails rather than the sunbrella canvaswork of the sprayhood and bimini etc., In UK we say things like being "over-canvassed" when we have left reefing too long. Nautical terms do tend to confuse.
Back to Canvaswork subject my own experience of the OEM NV products is good, my current sprayhood and bimini are now into their 6th season and looking good - I will check the stitching on the exposed parts, but overall they fit well and seem very robust and have not faded and the windows are still clear etc
Malcolm
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Post by davideso37 on Jan 10, 2014 13:25:50 GMT
Re the canvas options, the fabric on our 2006 spray dodger is still in good condition but the stitching started to go after a few seasons. I progressively hand sewed the most exposed seams with heavy waxed thread and last year had all the remaining stitching resewn. I think there is still another four years of live left as it still looks and works well. I have read that goretex thread is guaranteed to last the life of the canvas but our local sailmakers were not able to use the thread in their sewing machines. If the spray dodger is going to stay up for long periods then goretex thread may be worth a little research. The other problem with canvas is the deterioration of zippers on boom bags and genoa covers. It is worth making sure that the zippers have a good amount of canvas protecting them from the sun and again goretex thread would be useful. Re the sails in my opinion a fully battened cross cut dacron mainsail will last a good ten years, you will be able to put three reefs in the sail and sail in very windy conditions. I wanted something a bit more racey and went for a tri radial dacron which is very nice but not a huge improvement on the fully battened cross cut. A cross cut dacron genoa will however lose its shape in a short time. Save the money on the mainsail and go for a nice laminate No 1 genoa. I have a lovely Australian made tri radial carbon GPL.  When you get down to the No 2 and 3 genoa sizes I have kevlar cross cut laminates which we have had to reinforce with metres of carbon tapes to retain the shape. The No 2 is now effectively a tape drive and is one of our quickest sails. Next time I buy a No 3 I might try a tri radial Hydranet because at the wind strengths we use the No 3 the sail gets a good workout. Regards David |
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Post by Quiddle on Jan 10, 2014 17:51:06 GMT
The other problem with canvas is the deterioration of zippers on boom bags and genoa covers. It is worth making sure that the zippers have a good amount of canvas protecting them from the sun and again goretex thread would be useful. Yes, forgot to mention my stack pack zip was also replaced - but for £35 fitted this was no great issue. |
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