SO35 P bracket / rudder removal

[jack35]

Hi All

We have an SO35 and are trying to replace the shaft bearing in the p bracket.

I assume the rudder has to come off but can not remove the bolt iwo the jumping/bearing collar
and whilst I've undone the quadrant cables and bolts the quadrant is still firmly attached to the rudder stock.
I don't want to take the rudder off but can not see any alternative.

Unfortunately I'm unable to make the 'Search' facility work on the forum and have looked as much as I can but I can not see any posts about rudder removal.

Can anybody point me in the right direction or suggest the process.

cheers JJ

[sailbleu]

Excuse me , you want to remove the rudder to get the cutless bearing replaced ?
Why should you do that ?
Maybe I'm missing something , but I guess your P-bracket is the same as on my SO40DS no ?

Regards

[sailbleu]

No need to make the tool , but you'll find the procedure to replace the bearing further down the road.
www.jeanneau-owners.com/hintsandtips/Cutlessbearingtool.html

Regards

[jack35]

Thanks sailbleu

I had already read your article with much interest.

I don't have your wonderful tools and if I could make them I might be doing a lot of the other great projects I've read you've undertaken ie the inner forestay.

I note in the quote from my engineer he is proposing to cut off the yanmar? coupling rather than draw it off as you show.
I guess that's why I haven't spoken to him for 2 years since he last billed me.
We aren't exactly spoilt for choice down South here.

Anyway the rudder quadrant remains frozen onto the stock.

I've also got 2 thru hull water scoops which are full of barnacles so I'm proposing to replace them with straight mushroom skin fittings but there seems to be an insert remaining in the hull so I wonder how the mushrooms will work as they have no hull to tighten onto?

Any help would be much appreciated.

Cheers JJ

[sailbleu]

Pictures would help alot Jack.
Are you talking about the thru hull for engine cooling and so on ?

With regards to the cutless bearing , you might try and bash it out with a pipe - first cut out a segment the thickness of the shaft so you can slide it over the shaft - and than bash the bearing out . That way you dont need to remove the rudder. You will have to remove the propellor though .Do it with some help , one to hold the P-bracket very firmly and the other hitting the old bearing out and the new in again.

Regards

[mithras]

Hi

On my so35 is the cutlass bearing a all rubber type and therefore very easy to remove when the two plastic screws on the both sides of the p bracket is removed.

Regards

[jack35]

Thanks sailbleu and mithras.

I posted pics over in the other thread on skin fittings re 
jeanneau.proboards.com/post/14415/thread

I'm not that confident on the tools and am nervous about wacking things I don't know about.
So thank you for all the help and advice, urgency is a good driver.  And practice is necessary.

Thanks sailbleu for the half pipe tool I may do that.
I've undone the engine/shaft coupling and discovered a nut inside and have managed to get that undone.  
My club has a prop puller, not a shiny one like yours sailbleu but workable I hope.
I'll have a go tomorrow to see if I can get the coupling off the shaft and then the prop.

Thanks for the advice about renewing the dripless stern gland, that sounds sensible so I agree with the engineer on that one.
i guess the engineer is quoting worse case scenarios but the price to replace a $100 cutlass bearing just made my eyes water.

The quadrant is still frozen and I've been recommended to spray it with vinegar.

Now it's been suggested I should replace the quadrant wires as these are showing some discolouration.  But it's so hard to see these things.

Cheers JJ

[sailbleu]

Hey Jack , make the engineer read this board , that will make the price go down.
Replacing a cutless bearing will take about a hours work. Mind you , that is when the prop is already off. Sometimes that can turn into a nasty job.
Volvo seal is a piece of cake ,infact it can all be found in my article no.
It might be possible to remove the shaft without getting the rudder off.
But the prop has to come off first.
If the shaft is out you can weaken the old cutless by sawing it through lenghtwise , then it's easy to bash it out. Take care not to damage the strut when sawing.

Good luck

[rick63]

I agree with Mithras, I had a SO35 and replaced the cutless bearing in under an hour, as mentioned above remove the two plastic grub screws from the side of the p bracket (they may be covered in antifoul so you may have to clear that to get access to them). Once they are removed the cutless bearing can get pushed out without too much effort.

[sailbleu]

Nov 22, 2013 21:40:16 GMT rick63 said:

I agree with Mithras, I had a SO35 and replaced the cutless bearing in under an hour, as mentioned above remove the two plastic grub screws from the side of the p bracket (they may be covered in antifoul so you may have to clear that to get access to them). Once they are removed the cutless bearing can get pushed out without too much effort.

Not always the case Rick.
I read stories ( somewhere on this board I believe) of boatowners who had the cutless replaced by a professional , a yard , and where the P-bracket fixation in the hull was damaged because of severe bashing.
On would think a pro has a tool like mine (there are more different types on the market) , but no , somle still bash the cutless out with all the risks at hand.
That's why sawing the bearing lenghtwise (when it's stuck) is a good idea.


Regards

[jack35]

Hi sailbleu

This is developing into a saga. And this particular Phantom Agent is dead.  I'm calling in the Engineers.

The prop is off, the coupling is off, the shaft is free to move but the rudder is stuck.

So I thought I'd just 'knock out' the bearing and then the Engineers could get on with ordering the new bearing ...

I made a 1/2 pipe bearing remover (thank you for that info)  and swacked it a number of times being conscious of the collateral damage.

Anyway no shift in the bearing and it is starting to disintegrate iwo the swacking.

This has been a good exercise because I've learnt a lot and am satisfied that the rudder is stuck on me and not the Engineers because I'm in a mind frame such that I wouldn't have believed them.

A good friend rescued me with the rudder quadrant by crawling into the lazaret.  Being 6'4" there are clearly some evolutionary inhibitions about even approaching such a small space, yet clearly I hadn't ventured far enough.

Anyway Rob cut through the quadrant bolts with a multi-tool, I hadn't thought it could do it ...

Anyway the rudder collar retaining bolt is not budging and whilst we haven't sheared off the head I think it is starting to twist.

But I'm perplexed.  This is a M10 bolt through a stainless steel rudder post though a stainless steel collar.  

Rudder Post shown here :



Rudder Collar shown here :

Attachment Deleted

I've read up on gaulling but I don't think threads are involved here.

I'm also intrigued about the rudder stops.  Without the quadrant the rudder is still limited in its travel i.e. its stopped at the ~30 degree mark.  Where are these stops ? Are there lugs welded onto the shaft inside the rudder tube ?

I've got some of the plastic TruDesign seacocks and skin fittings on order so I'm going back to polishing the topsides.

"The Charterer", as my wife is called, will be after me if progress isn't maintained.

Cheers Jack

[sailbleu]

Oh boy , this is going from bad to worse.
I have to admit Jack , taking off a rudder is not my cup of tea , never done it and I hope I never will.
Keep this topic alive so there's more chance of an experience expert dropping in.
Well, I wish I could lend my tool , that would make it easier on you.
But I guess it's time for some sawing , believe me when I say that it's frequently done because these cutless' have a tendency to get stuck.
Do I read you properly when you say the shaft can't be pulled out as long as the rudder is still in place ?

Well , no need to say you will have to pull through , and when you succeed please share you're findings on the board, because sooner or later we all have to replace the rudder's bearing .
A few year ago I noticed some guys attacking such a bearing , one was digging a pit under the rudder so it could be slided down , and the other was releasing the kwadrant bolts. That was at the end of the day and I had to go home .Unfortunatly I was not able to get too yard for a few days and by the time I got back the job was finished . I still kind of regret that . I hope you're able to make a hole under your rudder ?? Or is it asphalt / concrete ??
Anyway , a month ago a friend of mine got back to the country , sadly enough for his mothers funeral , we met a few times , had some beers and talked about his new home .. the caribbean . He also had some troubles with his rudders bearing (worn out) , he was in for a haulout but didn't know how to tackle the problem. I also had to disappoint him due to my lack of knowledge on the subject.

If the cutless is stuck please dont proceed bashing
Maybe you could make something similar to this.
It doesn't have to be a sophisticated or combined S/S contraption like mine.
www.google.be/imgres?imgurl=http://www.diybob.com/StrutRemove.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.diybob.com/diyCutlessBearing.htm&h=288&w=500&sz=14&tbnid=Gf6Vs1_vtd1nfM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=156&zoom=1&usg=___uiReVSzMPleiq_KAu4mISz9bq0=&docid=qu2LLmqRnN7WjM&sa=X&ei=sSOUUo3vF-joywOuvYDwAQ&ved=0CEAQ9QEwAw


Off topic here , if I may suggest with regards to the pictures you post , it would be handier to get some large pics on the board , that helps helping you.
I use tinypic.com/ ,the english version in you're case , pick a file, go to reduce , choose message board , upload and paste the link (also for message board) as it is in your post.
You get nice big pictures that way.

Good luck and keep us briefed.

[Seagem]

I have not taken a rudder off but I have put one back on my SO42i. The yacht will need to be in the crane slings or dig a hole as sailbleu suggests in order to slide the rudder out of its nylon sleeve.

The problem with getting the bolt out of the rudder coller maybe because the weight of the rudder is hanging from it. We held the rudder up on wooden blocks in order to get the bolt into the coller and through the shaft. Then lifted the boat slightly and removed the wooden blocks allowing the rudder to lower into its final position. Be sure to mark the coller where the bolt comes out to make sure it goes back into the same hole.

Also, there is a small bolt through the rudder stock for the emergency tiller. This should be countersunk into the shaft but on mine it was protruding slightly and scratched the nylon sleeve when the rudder shaft was lowered. It was impossible to get the rudder shaft back in with this bolt still in place (because of the protrusion) so take it out before lowering the rudder. I also recommend lubricating the shaft to ease its removal and refitting. I used what was to hand - washing up liquid!

I intend relacing my p bracket bearing in the next few weeks so wish me luck!

[jack35]

Hi sailbleu and Seagem

Sorry for not getting back earlier - a bit overwhelmed here, end of school for one of our children etc.  And then suddenly a blistering hot day then back to Melbourne rain and wind.

The retaining bolts on the quadrant exhibited salt build-up on the ~1/2" of thread left inside the alloy, see image below.





I heated the bolts and then hammered the bolts out of the holes.  OK no damage to the quadrant but not pretty.

I thought the rudder retaining bolt had the same problem so applied the same principles but this didn't work.

The rudder was jacked for all of this and had an eyebolt screwed into the top with a retaining rope which was useful for lowering the rudder when the pin finally came free. 

Well the cavalry (Engineer) turned up and fixed the problem in 5 minutes.
Impact socket driver - 18volt was the right tool.

Here is the recalcitrant bolt, with part of the thread (I) cut off.



Attachment Deleted

I left the engineer to it because I was afraid to hear him describe the mess I'd left him.  But he was terrific so I happily worked as his gopher when he put it all back together, i.e. slide back out of the lazaret and get some bolts and then bang my head (again) on the way back in. I was pretty concussed every day for a week.

Here is the prop puller which neatly removed the propeller.



Attachment Deleted

Please see next post for extra images as limit reached on this post.

[jack35]

Hi again

Shaft Removal

The yacht was moved back to overhang the traverse pit which gave another 6" which was enough to tilt the rudder slightly and slide the prop shaft past.


Bearing Replacement

I had been advised that it is standard practice to epoxy the bearings in which was why I was a bit wary of hammering it out.
Anyway, with the shaft removed the bearing puller (see below) effortlessly removed the bearing, which wasn't epoxied after all.




Attachment Deleted

The puller was used to press the new bearing back in without epoxy and then the grub screw inserted.  The grub screw only just touches the bearing as otherwise it causes the material to delaminate, I was told.


Shaft & Quadrant Installation

A new dripless stern seal was installed (I knew all about this from sailbleu's description), the shaft had been cleaned up and was re-inserted.  The existing shaft coupling was re-attached and a flexible coupling will be added as there was a little bit of wear iwo the seal.

The steering cables were fine just a bit greasy and the quadrant was in good condition.  Autopilot tiller and rudder angle indicator arm were re-attached and rudder alignment checked.

Here is the quadrant re-installed with lots of grease and anti-seize.



Attachment Deleted

I don't know why there was so much salt iwo the quadrant, whether it dripped down from the cockpit via the emergency tiller plate although we don't get that much water in the cockpit. 

Hey guys, thank you for all your comments and assistance.  It was an important learning thingy for me.  

Now I'm back to replacing seacocks and having a headache over 1 1/4" valves fitting to 1" hoses and a 1/2" valve to 5/8 (16mm) hose.

Cheers Jack

[sailbleu]

Hi Jack , nice job , well done.
You don't mention it , but I hope you replaced the rudders bearing aswell ? While the rudder was out I mean.

Regards

[ianqv]

Hi All,

I've just tuned in to this thread....
I have an S/O 37 and currently got the rudder off as the lower bearing had some play in it.
For me (luckily) all bolts come undone, the rudder was then lowered out.
New bearings are now on.
The boat has been lifted up so I can place the stock back up into the tube.
But that is as far as I've got (can only work on her at weekends)!

Does anyone need any pics or info prior to me nailing it all back together?
Providing all the bolts come undone - it is a very quick and easy job!
The new set of bearings cost me about £600 GBP

Sorry for not tuning in earlier to this thread!!

Regards

Ian

[sailbleu]

Hi Ian,

you wouldn't have to have any pictures of this interesting issue ?
Infact , why is it that these bearing cost you an arm ?
What's so special about them ?

Regards

[ianqv]

I remember now that I did get "other bits" as well!! I think it was about £450 ish.
Ok I'll take some pictures as it goes back together.

Should I start another thread... or add to this one?

Cheers

Ian

[sailbleu]

Ian , that would for sure be a valuable item for the H&T section.
Sofar I never came across an essay on rudder-bearing replacements.
Such a topic really deserves a thread of its own I would think.

Please knock yourself out

Regards

[ianqv]

OK .... Brace your selves!
New thread coming!!

BTW - The complete set of rudder bearings cost me £438 GBP

Best Regards

Ian