Check your batteries

[Xlnt]

I am not sure if my batteries was installed from factory or have been replaced by the previous owner but one battery in the house bank exploded this summer. I do not know why it exploded, but from now on I will check on them regularily. When I lifted them out of the Box I could see that it had been extremly hot, the Wood around the exploded batteri was burnt black. I think it has been a close call to a major fire. I am lucky I still have a boat i guess. 

-Xlnt


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[Don Reaves]

It looks like your batteries are wired in parallel, as is the case on most Jeanneaus. All you need is one cell shorting out and the other batteries will try really hard to charge it up to full voltage. For me, this resulted in killing the second battery, but for you it might have been the cause of a near disaster.

I don't parallel my batteries for just this reason. That's why I replaced the two parallel 12-volt batteries with two series 6-volt batteries.

Don

[sailbleu]

Don , if your theory is correct , then it could be solved by fusing each battery individually no ?
That way the good battery will not flood the bad one.

Xlnt , what kind of batteries are they ? Type , amps .....?

Regards

[Xlnt]

Hi
Serial connections is not a solution for me. But i do agree that it would be nice. I have 7 of these connected in parallel and last year another cell in one of the batteries died on me. I noticed it right away and got the bad battery out and nothing happened. But this summer something happened during charging when the boat was docked.

The batteries are labled AXCAR 12V 95ah 800(en) They are regular vented acid lead batteries. I am thinking of getting closed cell AGM batteries around 100-150ah

-Xlnt

[sailbleu]

I just replaced a 220Ah lead acid battery for the thruster .Some towls in the next compartment where damaged by acid fumes.
The battery is in the same area as the bowthruster , also hydrogen is released during charging , no need for further explanation I guess.
I think I was very lucky here.
The replacement is a 200AH AGM closed type.
No , absolutely no open lead acid batteries for me anymore.
I also rewired my compensation diode of my alternator , you know , the one that increases the charging voltage up to 14,5 to compensate the voltage loss of the split .
That voltage is called the gassing fase and this way you charge up to a 100% , but also release oxigen and hydrogen ( and acid fumes in my case)
I prefer to limit the voltage to 13,8 by connecting the compensation diode before the split unit .
In one occasion - when the compensation diode was still connected after the split unit - that unit failed for some reason (broke down) and the charging voltage ran up to 17 or 18 volt.
I was lucky that only the engine compartiment blower burned out.

Regards

[MartyB]

I have a question for some of you with battery issues.........How many of them are literally starting batteries vs true deep cycle ones? Seems like Jeanneau is putting starting batteries where deep cycles should be, which in my mind, could cause some of the issue as noted here in this thread. I am assuming lead vs gel or agm style batteries.

Marty

[sailbleu]

As you well know Marty , the (liquid) lead type are the cheapest , one of the main reason why they're being used. For starting the engine this is the required type I guess
Gel is very expensive and sentive to correct charging , in my view not worth the investment.
The agm imo is a good cmpromise , but appearently you also have different grades in this type. The normal household battery for lights and so on , and the deepcycle type that can be used for thrusters , anchor winch etc.
But again , for just starting the engine I prefere the normal lead acid , considering the higher amp output .

In general I would say the (deepcycle) AGM is the way to go. I have about 500Ah of them on board now.
Never enough of course

Regards

[MartyB]

One can get a deep cycle lead batter, vs a starting battery. A starting battery will only take 5-10 discharges before it is shot! The lead panels are ment for quick, high discharge then quick recharge, ala what happens when you start a motor, be it a car, truck, boat etc.

Meanwhile, the lead deep cycle the plates are thicker, will take upwards of 300-600 discharges before being shot per say. Agm and gel bats will also take up to about 300 discharges, along with some agm's being able to be use as starting batteries, and are designed accordingly.

I know when starting batteries go bad, they smell, and seem to be on the hot side when charging them. Hence why, I have to wonder if Jeanneau is sending out lead starting batteries for the house banks vs deep cycle lead cell batteries. Starting batteries are cheaper than deep cycle one by 1/4 to 1/2.

Marty

[Mistroma]

Nov 17, 2013 3:32:32 GMT MartyB said:

I have a question for some of you with battery issues.........How many of them are literally starting batteries vs true deep cycle ones? Seems like Jeanneau is putting starting batteries where deep cycles should be, which in my mind, could cause some of the issue as noted here in this thread. I am assuming lead vs gel or agm style batteries.

Marty

I believe that you are correct in saying that Jeanneau do not install proper deep-cycle batteries. I think that this has been mentioned in other threads. My 2009 42DS came with 110Ah Tudor batteries which failed fairly rapidly (apart from the one soley used for engine starting). I did a lot of digging and came to the conclusion that the batteries were designed for use in lorries (are these called trucks in US?) as start batteries.

I could dig out the model number and spec. but have no doubt at all that they were not designed for deep-cycle use. The Tudors lost much of their capacity after 2 years use and were pretty shot after 3 years, mainly weekends with a few extended trips in 2nd & 3rd years. I changed to Trojan T-105s and they show no sign of deterioration at all after 2 years. We've lived on board for 5-6 months each year in 2012 and 2013 and spent l lot more than 50% of the time at anchor.

Tudors spec. fitted as standard: Very poor and not likely to last very long unless boat spends most of the time hooked up to mains power & not draining the batteries.
Trojan T105s: Proper deep-cycle batteries and good value for money.

I did consider AGMs but they were much more expensive than the Trojans. I know that they are sealed but that wasn't a factor in my choice. I'd read of some problems with AGMs, some people had reported very poor lifetime and another mentioned complex eq. charging (most say never eq. but one says it's OK).

On balance, T105s were low cost and fairly easy to source. Unexpected failure would not be a huge capital cost.

I didn't consider Gel as there are older tech. and not really suited for my needs vs. AGMs.

I had heard of catastrophic failures as well and that they were probably due to plates shorting out. I'd read that cheap batteries were more prone to these issues (makes sense). Deep-cycle flooded batteries have thicker plates which are also better mounted (so I'm told, but again it makes sense). AGM deep-cycle have a glass mat between the plates (well they are AGM after all) and I imagine that also makes a short less likely.

[MartyB]

Mistroma,

I believe MANY, not all, but many of the battery issues described on this forum are as you found, lead batteries designed as starting batteries, not deep cycle use.

Not sure what a "lorrie" is, altho it could be spanish or equal for "truck" here in North America where I am. My Navistar dump truck uses a common (at least here in NA) size 31 starting battery. I have a 12v deepcycle size 31 in my older arcadia. altho the stock size was a 24. I believe the T105's are equal foot print to a 12V size 27, altho might be a 24.......The 6V you put in are an inch/2-3 cm taller than 12V equal footprint batteries.

I would be willing to guess, that ANY recent purchaser of a Jeanneau sailboat, should check out what battery style and type they have in the house bank. It may very well be a starting lead style battery, which will do as the op stated, smell, heat up etc when it is shot. I had a GM pickup with two batteries from the get go, they put a starting battery in where it was designed to be a deep cycle use. That battery did not last long when used to power an RV trailer I had. Put in a deep cycle, lasted a long time!

As far as agm vs gel vs lead.....yeah a 6v lead deep cycle is probably the best bang for the buck/euro if one will. 12V Deep cycles if properly built can last awhile. AGM's are nice in that one can charge them at upwards of 45% of the ahr vs 25 for lead and 20% for gel. BUT, if you do not have an alternator on the motor that can charge at this extreme rate, you can fry this part of the system! Gels as noted, need to have the alternator charge reduced, or you fry the battery by charging it too quick. The 6V Deep cycle batteries can last upwards of 600 cycles, where as the others only about 300 discharge cycles. Good and bad with all, up to the end user to decide which is better per say.

Marty

[MartyB]

ooops, googled "Lorry" this is UK/Ireland english for "truck" as I know it here in North America......My apologies to anyone I may have insulted or otherwise!

marty

[sailbleu]

To provide a long and prosper life you just need to take two things into account.
Never ever get the battery under 10,5 Volt (sulphatation) and never ever overcharge (loss of water and bending of plates)
Do not forget that AGM 's also vent gas , be it in a minor way.
The problem is , you can not refill them anymore.

Regards

[nornaj]

Based on experience it appears that:

Exide Nautilus Gold Group 31 deep-cycle batteries are hybrids, these were original spec for Marion-built SO39is.

Tudor Group 31s are probably starter batteries (a low grade/cheap Exide-related product) or, at best, poor hybrids. The Tudors may also have been an original, or alternative, spec for Marion-built Jeanneaus.

Mixing Tudors and Exides in the house bank is a recipe for disaster, the Tudors will likely boil over during charging.

With the benefit of hindsight, demand better batteries when purchasing a new Jeanneau, or be very circumspect in their use and replace them within a relatively short period of time.

You really have to wonder why good quality batteries were excluded from the spec. The cost differential would have been small, and insignificant when set against good customer relations.

NornaJ

[sailbleu]

Nov 19, 2013 0:53:22 GMT nornaj said:

Based on experience it appears that:

Exide Nautilus Gold Group 31 deep-cycle batteries are hybrids, these were original spec for Marion-built SO39is.

Tudor Group 31s are probably starter batteries (a low grade/cheap Exide-related product) or, at best, poor hybrids. The Tudors may also have been an original, or alternative, spec for Marion-built Jeanneaus.

Mixing Tudors and Exides in the house bank is a recipe for disaster, the Tudors will likely boil over during charging.

With the benefit of hindsight, demand better batteries when purchasing a new Jeanneau, or be very circumspect in their use and replace them within a relatively short period of time.

You really have to wonder why good quality batteries were excluded from the spec. The cost differential would have been small, and insignificant when set against good customer relations.

NornaJ

But that's how it goes Nornaj , a bit here , a bit there and some nibbling everywhere.
Allow the customer/buyer to choose (and pay supplement) is strategically from their point of view a bad move , as a manufacturer/boatbuilder you then admit using inferior quality.

Regards

[nornaj]

While I know you're right, Sailbleu, I cannot help but think that there are parallels here to the cavalier approach to quality and safety taken by some auto manufacturers in the 60s and 70s. Took serious competition from Toyota and Hyundai, et al (not to mention a Nader or two and a bit of regulation) to effect change.
NornaJ

[electricmonk]

Nov 19, 2013 6:57:37 GMT sailbleu said:

Nov 19, 2013 0:53:22 GMT nornaj said:

Based on experience it appears that:

Exide Nautilus Gold Group 31 deep-cycle batteries are hybrids, these were original spec for Marion-built SO39is.

Tudor Group 31s are probably starter batteries (a low grade/cheap Exide-related product) or, at best, poor hybrids. The Tudors may also have been an original, or alternative, spec for Marion-built Jeanneaus.

Mixing Tudors and Exides in the house bank is a recipe for disaster, the Tudors will likely boil over during charging.

With the benefit of hindsight, demand better batteries when purchasing a new Jeanneau, or be very circumspect in their use and replace them within a relatively short period of time.

You really have to wonder why good quality batteries were excluded from the spec. The cost differential would have been small, and insignificant when set against good customer relations.

NornaJ

But that's how it goes Nornaj , a bit here , a bit there and some nibbling everywhere.
Allow the customer/buyer to choose (and pay supplement) is strategically from their point of view a bad move , as a manufacturer/boatbuilder you then admit using inferior quality.

Regards

Fine but my experience is slightly different, my 2004 Jeanneau had 4 Tudor Batteries and I changed them in 2012 simply because they were old but they still checked out OK. For the replacements I used a small family business that has been making batteries for 50 or so years, the same business I used to buy from when I was in the truck repair business back in the 1970's. I have found little difference between their starter battery and deep cycle offering except for the label - they are all "sturdy", when all is said and done lead acid is lead acid there are good ones and not so good ones, enhancements come and go, its not ago when Gel was the bees knees now its AGM - but its still a lead acid cell.

Branded manufacturers batteries however are a different proposition they are most often lightweight and "fragile" so:

first check the weight if its heavy it is probably going to last; agreed not very scientific but born out of experience.

Second, forget most of the advertising blurb you have no way of knowing its actual spec without destroying it and the industry has been a little economical with the truth about AH capacity.

Third, if possible be there when its assembled so you can see how its constructed.

Topical note, look at this msor.victoria.ac.nz/foswiki/pub/Main/ResearchReportSeries/mscs03-08.pdf its a bit technical but notice that these guys don't anticipate much over a 90% charge and it goes downhill from there on because there are not enough hours in a day (night of running on the surface) to recharge them fully and they have all the gear and crew dedicated to the task of keeping the batteries charged up. In other words they face the same problems we do with lead acid technology and time.