REPLACING THEM d**n GROUP 31s

[nornaj]

OK, enough.......
Norna J was commissioned in 2010 with three factory Exides Group 31s + two additional Tudors in the house bank for 565 Ah. She also has a 100A Balmar alternator and a Balmar smart regulator.  Electrical performance has been under-whelming.
The commissioning set up in Vancouver can best described as a complete mess - but no need to go into that now.
Just ran a performance test down to 10.5v over 20 hours. 325 Ah. Not good enough.
Any 39i owner replaced the Group 31s with golf carts 6v?
Were you able to do that without majorly modifying the battery box?
If so, how did you do it?
The attachment shows the three original Exides on the left (inboard).
Input much appreciated.
NornaJ



Attachment Deleted

[Don Reaves]

Now that you've done your performance test, discharging your batteries flat, you may find its necessary to replace them. I did this 20 years ago before I knew much about batteries. Or perhaps you have better batteries than I did at the time. We can only hope.

Don

[MartyB]

Are the tudors 6v, and the exides 12v? if so, hopefully not hooked together on the same bank, as that WILL cause issues.

The key to switching out the exides to 6v golf cart, is whether you have enough space on the top. As an equal length width 6V will usually be 1-1.5" taller. or 3-4 cm or so.

I have also seen some comment that the house batteries from Jeanneau, were actually more starting battery oriented, as such, they will not take too many discharges. So if you can find some true 12V deep cycles, you should get more use out of them, assuming you have lead cells. If you have gel or agm as some have, that will be a different issue to a degree too. Hopefully the tudors are the same style as the exides, ie all lead, gel or agam if hooked together.

I have a single lead 31 that is working well, and had some lead deepcycle 24's before that I typically got about 2-3 yrs out of. Same when I used 12V ceep cycles with an TV trailer. I did get way more use and time out of 6V lead batteries in the same conditions. My boat is small enough, that to put two house batteries would require a major rewire of that system.

Marty

[MalcolmP]

I can't add much, but will follow this with interest as I am thinking about upgrading both my housebank and bowthruster batteries on our 39i, but I am no electro-techie

I replaced the original 2008 batteries almost like for like about 3 seasons ago, new batteries were no better than the OEM ones, except they were fully sealed

You comments on the Balmar make me wonder if I should just add a second alternator? - I think there are several options

I have added you photo to this post to save those using tablets having to open Word

Malcolm

[royhb]

I recently (about 6 months ago) replaced our factory house bank Tudors with some FullRiver AGM's.  3 110AH and 1 220AH in a single bank.

I have a converted Delco 110AH alternator with a Balmar regulator.  I've tweaked the regulator settings extensively, particularly the voltages, the time periods for bulk and absorption charging and the parameter that tells the regulator when to switch from bulk to absorption based on % of field current.

When the bank is well discharged (50-60%) the alternator puts 70-85 amps in and maintains that current level for quite a while, then tapers slowly.

The batteries don't seem to get hot and they recover pretty quickly compared to the former crappy batteries.

The 440 AH of Tudor batteries, on the other hand, refused to ever accept more than about 35 amps and rapidly tapered to 10-20 amps.

Time will tell how my AGM's will hold up.  I'll be happy if we get 3-4 good years out of them.  The Tudors were showing signs of early death after 4 months of deep cycle use.  They were never discharged to less than 50% but that didn't help.

I ran across some Balmar info at a point in the past that indicated that the default settings for their regulators were VERY conservative.  There seems to be some agreement among people who know about such things that the parameters need to be adjusted from the default settings.

Given the symptoms that you describe I don't think that just changing the alternator or doing something with the regulator will increase your satisfaction so long as the alternator has been tested and the regulator is outputting decent field current.

The best process for these problems seems to be to get the batteries right first, then improve alternator / regulator second if necessary.

No alternator or regulator in the world can produce acceptable results with batteries that have a low charge acceptance rate or are otherwise not up to snuff.
 

[nornaj]

Thank you, all.

The Tudors are 12v and are (apparently) an Exide-related product. Every "expert" who has looked at the set up, has expressed doubts that group 31s are really deep-cycle batteries. Starters, hybrids, but not deep-cycle.

The 10.5v test was done only because the aggregate performance was consistently poor. It certainly isn't advisable under normal circumstances. Noting, of course, that the test regime damage is in the recharging, not the discharging.

It appears that the existing batteries are incapable of absorbing the ampage capabilities of the Balmar alternator. (That sound familiar?)

We need about 85 Ah daily. With 500/600 Ah house and a 100A alternator, this really should not be a problem.

Conclusion: the house bank should be toast.

Which bring us to our real issue. How to fit 6 x 6v golf cart batteries into the space. This is a challenge.
We have been told that the low profile golf carts are 10 5/8 in to the top of the stud. On the port side of the set up, where we have the minimum height, we have - wait for it - 10 5/8 in.

The next step is to remove the batteries and measure everything VERY precisely. Then work out how to fit the golf carts in. Then install 'em.  (Oh, and pay for them).

After that we can start tweaking the regulator. Except for the alternator temp limit, there is nothing to suggest that we cannot achieve a 14.8v/100A charge. (Thanks royhb.)  Adding a second alternator seems a bit like over-kill (at the moment, anyway).

The starter battery and the thruster/windlass battery are both FDC, so continuing with FDC house batteries seems to make most sense.

Will add to the thread as things develop. In the meantime, further input from you all will be much appreciated.

We didn't go sailing just to learn about DC systems.... Or did we? 

Norna J
sorry, the frustration may be showing!

[royhb]

I think you don't have as big a problem as it may seem.

There are plenty of 12 volt group 31 deep cycle batteries available from reputable manufacturers.

For example:
www.lifelinebatteries.com/marineflyer.php?id=3
www.fullriver.com/products/admin/upfile/DC115-12A.pdf
www.trojanbattery.com/Products/31-AGM12V.aspx

In my opinion you really don't need to do a major reconstruction of your battery compartment.

[nornaj]

Thanks Royhb
Agreed that would be the simplest solution, But....
All of the batteries you reference are AGMs.
At present, the 3 banks on Norna J are flooded cell (with the bowthruster/windlass bank only recently installed).
It has been my understanding that AGMs and flooded cell should not be mixed in a common charging set up.
If that is correct, then I would have to replace 7 batteries, 2 of which are adequate for the high-cranking job required of them, instead of the five that are no good for the house application.
For info the charging set up is the OEM Cristec shore power charger and a Balmar 100v alternator with a Balmar smart regulator, the starter/house allocation is handled by a Xantrex echo-charger, and the fwd/house is handled by an ARC combiner.
Which sort of begs the question, i.e.
Are there any FDC Group 31s that are genuine marine deep-cycle batteries?
NornaJ

[MartyB]

I can not find a catalog at the moment, But West Marine has true size 31 deep cells, dual purpose and starting batteries in size 31 that are lead cells. BUT, they do not show them at the online store, as they can not ship them direct to your home etc. They are available at the stores. As that is where I got my house deep cycle lead battery. IIRC about 105 ahr. THey built by east penn. When I find my catalog, I'll post the sku here.

Interstate, not sure if they have battery outliets up in BC, also has lead deep cycle batteries, IIRC a 31 is one of them, I know they have 24's and 27's, as I have bought them in the past.

Marty

[nornaj]

Thanks Marty

The West Marine 2013 catalog has a Group 31 deep-cycle FDC by SeaVolt, good for 350 cycles.
Similar products are available elsewhere under various labels. Including the Exide Nautilus and Tudor products that (for me and other forum members) have been poor performers.

Both the local marine battery expert and one of the better marine electricians in Vancouver have stated that there is no such thing as a Group 31 deep-cycle FDC battery, all are starter or hybrids.

One of the more informative websites
www.evolvegreen.ca/BatteryFAQ.html
says:

"Marine batteries are usually actually a "hybrid", and fall between the starting and deep-cycle batteries,though a few (Rolls-Surrette and Concorde, for example) are true deep cycle. In the hybrid, the plates may be composed of Lead sponge, but it is coarser and heavier than that used in starting batteries. It is often hard to tell what you are getting in a "marine" battery, but most are a hybrid. "Hybrid" types should not be discharged more than 50%. Starting batteries are usually rated at "CCA", or cold cranking amps, or "MCA", Marine cranking amps - the same as "CA". Any battery with the capacity shown in CA or MCA may not be a true deep-cycle battery. It is sometimes hard to tell, as the term deep cycle is sometimes overused. CA and MCA ratings are at 32 degrees F, while CCA is at zero degree F. Unfortunately, the only positive way to tell with some batteries is to buy one and cut it open, which is not much of an option."

As far as I can see, Rolls/Surrette don't produce any Group 31s.
Concorde has a Group 31 AGM under its Lifeline brand, no FDCs.
Trojan has Group 31 AGMs and gels, no FDCs.

MalcolmP's experience (above) is informative. Irrespective, our west coast Vancouver island cruising plans for 2013 were dropped because NornaJ could not meet our basic electrical survival criteria: 3 days at anchor without running the engine between voyage legs, and no access to shore power for several days.

I am slowly talking myself into Rolls/Surrette replacements. Two 8Ds would fit and do the job but, at 172 lbs each, it would be a real challenge to get 'em into position. 5 Group 27s or 4 Group 30s would likely fit and provide the required minimum 500Ah. And, of course, the other issues are aggregate weight (300/350 lbs) and the size of the required mortgage............and the first mate's concurrence.

NornaJ

[sitara]

Nornaj,
Have you considered using lithium batteries, it looks like a promising way to go to me. See jeanneau.proboards.com/thread/2716/21st-century-electrics.

[rxc]

I replaced the original (!) four French batteries on my 2003 43DS in 2007 when I discovered that they had never been maintained by the original owner. I installed 4 Trojan 125s as the house bank and one Group 31 bought at Bass Outlet as the starting battery. I did have to make some room in the boxes to fit the Trojans, and I did move the starting battery elsewhere. I already had a similar Group 31 installed professionally in 2007 for the bow thruster/windlass, and a Group 24 for the genset in 2007.

As of today, the Trojans are still going strong, with no problems. Tht Group 24 is starting to wheeze a bit. The two Group 31s had to be replaced in Scotland and in France in 2011, with European models of about the same size (no group number). I also have a Balmar 100 amp alternator, with an ARS5 regulator. I have replaced the Cristec charger with a TruCharge after I left both the charger and my inverter running simultaneously, for just a bit too long. <g>

I strongly support installing the Trojans. Find some way to fit them in - move the starting battery somewhere else, if necessary.

[nornaj]

Sitara - thanks, illuminating, but I guess I'm stuck in the 20th century!

rxc - thanks also, the 125s would probably be a good choice, but they are too tall for the existing compartment, and I cannot see how to easily modify it to accommodate the extra height.

NornaJ

[MartyB]

www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/wp-content/uploads/Marine-Master-Spec-Sheet-0194.pdf

This is showing a deep cycle size 31, model is a dc31dt. That is what I have. It is not sold as a dual purpose model. Maybe I am screwed up on this after the fact.

I can get the sku tomorrow.

I also had a thought, what I can get down here, may not be what you can get up there either.........

marty

[MartyB]

The WM sku for the 31 lead deep cycle is 1231158.

I can not get that nor the exide number to come up with the online store part.......

Marty

[nornaj]

Marty
Thanks info on the Deka 31. It is available "up here".
That said, I may have worked out how to re-configure the space to take 6 golfcarts. The preferred solution. Gonna be tight.
Will update once I reach a point worth talking about!
NornaJ

[MartyB]

6v gc's would be a better way to go. Or ANY combo of 6v'd for that matter. I had two 6Vs with the same foot print as 31's for my travel trailer. A LOT better than 2-3 12V of equal AHR!

Marty

[rxc]

I had to use my dremmel to rout out some fiberglass because one of the four moulded depressions was a bit too small, and I had to also rout out a very small amount of wood on the cover over one battery compartment, to make the 125s fit into the spaces meant for French Group 31s. I don't know why only one slot was the wrong size - I have never been able to figure out French battery sizes, even after living there for 6 years. I also had to add tie-down rods, because the Jeanneau-supplied cords were quite ineffective. I haven't tried them out in a rollover or a pitchpole, but they did survive a knockdown.

[nornaj]

An up-date
We have replaced the Group 31s with 6 x US 2200 6V golfcart batteries.
This involved extensive surgery to the battery box.
which might have been less if the dimensions provided by the manufacturer were accurate.
Final touches, including securing will have to wait a couple of weeks, then I will post some pics which may be helpful to others.
In the meantime, intend to initiate a separate thread on maintaining the golfcarts.
Thanks to everyone.
NornaJ

[Tafika II]

It is now time for us to replace the 7 year old Mastervolt GRP 31 90Ah AGM batteries before we leave for the Caribbean this fall. I have 6 house batteries and 1 starter battery and plan to add 2 more Group 31 to the house bank. We have a Balmar 130A alternator with DuoCharge Regulator. I'm looking at Lifeline, Trojan, Optima and probably others as I'm just starting my homework.
If anyone cares to offer their suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated.

[vasko]

www.balqon.com/store-2/#!/All-Batteries/c/2736691/inview=product11905253&offset=0&sort=priceDesc

[windward54]

Aug 7, 2015 0:47:28 GMT Tafika II said:

It is now time for us to replace the 7 year old Mastervolt GRP 31 90Ah AGM batteries before we leave for the Caribbean this fall. I have 6 house batteries and 1 starter battery and plan to add 2 more Group 31 to the house bank. We have a Balmar 130A alternator with DuoCharge Regulator. I'm looking at Lifeline, Trojan, Optima and probably others as I'm just starting my homework.
If anyone cares to offer their suggestions, they would be greatly appreciated.

Lil' Bro,

We have the Lifeline batteries on our boat, and I can't say enough good about them. The house bank consists of 2, 4D's. The starter battery is a Lifeline starter AGM battery, group 27. All are original, as the first owner switched over to these when he bought the boat in 2006. Next month, I will most likely switch out the starter battery. Bottom line is you get what you pay for on batteries.

[Tafika II]

Vasko, thanks for the link, but these looks to be Lithium batteries...too expensive and I don't like the danger factor.
Big Bro...thanks. Waiting on a quote from Lifeline now. You are right (as always except you only have 3 stars on this forum)...you get what you pay for!
I'll keep you posted

[vasko]

Yes they are Li-Ion battery 

you have millions of li-ion batteries around you - they just need to be protected from overcharging.

if you do not want to manage(build a kit yourself) something yourself you can always use a ready Marine kit -  

www.balqon.com/store-2/#!/Marine/c/12286436/offset=0&sort=priceDesc

IMPORTANT things to consider:


1. The 200AH  Li == 500AH wet batteries as - the wet batteries cannot get lower then 50% 
2. The Li are charging with rate of 100AH ( for 200AH pack) until they reach 85% when you are on engine ( e.g. about 4x faster charging)
3. The Li do not have memory effect  e.g. you can keep them charged on 10% all the time and no harm to the pack
4. The Li weight is about 1/3 -  1/4  of wet, same for size
5. The cycles are > 3000 ( for the packs in the link) in real terms most likely will outlast the boat life....
6. The wet bats can explode too - and it is not nice thing

7. pricewise - putting only the >3000 charge cycles they get about 3-5 times cheaper then the wet.