Lifting Keel Problems

[ceejay]

Hi, Just been sailing a Sun Odyssey 32i. The lifting keel cannot be lifted manually as the effort required is too great. A previous owner has extended the lifting rope out to a winch on the coachroof. I feel this cannot be right and the keel should be liftable manually with only medium effort. Can anybody advise if I'm right and diagnose this issue?

[rene460]

Hi Ceejay,

i do not have a 32i, but I spoke to an owner who said that while he could pull up the board by hand, it took a strong pull with feet braced and a straight back.  He considered himself a strong man, but was still considering modifying things so as to use a winch.  I do not know if he is a forum member.

This suggests that a strong pull is normal, and the owner might be in the right track using a winch.  However, it is worth checking the pulley by opening the inspection hatch, and make sure it turns freely and has no flat spots or other faults preventing it turning easily under load.  Also that the line is the correct size and not causing excessive friction.  Note the Jeanneau manual suggests this should not be done on the water, implying that the inspection hatch is too close to water line for safe removal when afloat.

Then check that the parts of the board which do go into the hull (not much of it on that model) are not fouled by marine growth or accumulation of anti fouling, and check that the pin is not bent.  The board is pretty heavy in air so you would probably have to lift the boat out of the water with the board down and place it on a high cradle, but it should then move enough to tell if anything is binding.

If all looks in good order the winch may be the best option for most mere mortals.

As a matter of interest, the board on my SO30i is relatively easy to lift, but is arranged to be lifted using the cabin top winch and I doubt if I could lift it by hand.  Main reason seems to be that the line is attached nearer the pin end of the board so requires short pull distance (around 30cm) and large force instead of less pull over a longer distance.

rene460

[Troubadour]

I have a SO32 lift keel exactly the same as the 32i.

Yes it takes a very hard pull to raise it. It is raised by an 8 part tackle with huge frictional losses, that's why. The actual load is not that great, I calculated it from a drawing, I think it's about 180kg.

I have improved it by re-rigging the tackle. As standard the two sets of blocks are in line. The pulling line and fixed line are at opposite ends of the block sets and as you pull it all twists up badly. It works better if you reeve it so that the two sets of blocks are at 90 degrees. I'm trying to remember how I did it!

Basically you rig it as a spiral. From the fixed end the rope goes round lower sheave no 1 then upper no 1 then lower no 4 then upper no 4 then lower no 3 then upper no 3 then lower no 2 then upper no 2 and from there to the exit. I think that's it! I can get a photo if you want.

Now when a strong crew member raises it with a good heave you hear the blade clonk on the bottom of the hull. Impossible before.

I have seen photos of a couple of boats where a small winch has been fitted on the pedestal end just below the rope exit slot and the rope taken over the exit sheave instead of under it. I don't know if they retain the 8 part tackle.

[gonar]

Hi there

I have a SO32 lifting keel. Hopefully the picture will work. Winch and Cleat installed on the table pedestal. To be honest I thought it came like this but I could be wrong. It is a bit of a strain trying to move it without using the winch but it does pull up most of the way by hand, only the last bit really needs the winch.

I think this is what Troubadour mentioned in his reply.


Attachment Deleted

[Troubadour]

Aug 3, 2013 9:00:57 GMT Troubadour said:

Basically you rig it as a spiral. From the fixed end the rope goes round lower sheave no 1 then upper no 1 then lower no 4 then upper no 4 then lower no 3 then upper no 3 then lower no 2 then upper no 2 and from there to the exit. I think that's it! I can get a photo if you want.

Correction having thought about it!

The rope is fixed aft of the blocks at the port side top of the casing. As I have re-reeved (re-rove?) it, it comes:
round lower 1 (aft) from port
round upper 1 (starboard) from aft
round lower 4 from starboard
round upper 4 from forward
round lower 2 from port
round upper 2 from aft
round lower 3 from starboard
round upper 3 from forward
to exit

It does run much better than rigged as per Jeanneau's drawing.

[Troubadour]

Aug 3, 2013 10:06:58 GMT gonar said:

Hi there

I have a SO32 lifting keel. Hopefully the picture will work. Winch and Cleat installed on the table pedestal. To be honest I thought it came like this but I could be wrong. It is a bit of a strain trying to move it without using the winch but it does pull up most of the way by hand, only the last bit really needs the winch.

I think this is what Troubadour mentioned in his reply.

Exactly, but from the photo isn't your boat a 32.2 not a 32 or 32i?
The lift keel is different, I think a winch was standard on the 32.2, I don't know if it has the 8 part tackle as well.
The 32/32i has no winch or cleat, just a Spinlock clutch mounted on a bent bracket from the table top.

[gonar]

Ahh. That makes sense. Yes she is a 32.2 

[Troubadour]

Attachment Deleted


Difficult to photo but you can see the fixed end with the eye in the foreground, the pull line horizontal and parts of the two block sets.
Keel is fully up in this pic.

[ylare]

I raised thee question three years ago after I bought a one year old SO 32I. I had previously a SO 26 where I was used to pull the keel with hand. That was simply not possible on the SO 32I. The previous owner has made a special tackle using a thin rope, very unpleasant to use without good gloves. I'm now using the genoa winch.


Attachment Deleted

[mikebz]

Just reviving this thread as we have issues with the lifting keel on our recently-purchased 2003 SO32.

The first time I tried to raise it I ripped the block off the back of the casing - hardly surprisingy as it was only screwed into the plywood facing!  With 2 of us on the rope tug-of-war style we just about managed to get it all the way (or nearly all the way - how do you know if it's there are you've just run out of strength?) up.

I have now bolted the block back on, but I find that leading the rope through it introduces it to the winch at the wrong angle and causes it to overlay itself and jam up.  Using the winch I can hardly raise the keel at all using all of my strength.  If I re-reeve the rope through the block the other way so it is looped around it then I can just raise it most of the way using a superhuman effort on the winch.

Some pics below:







Clearly that last photo shows something amiss with the first part of the tackle.  I guess the only way to resolve this is to get the boat ashore and block the keel up?

I think I should try re-reeving it as per Troubadour's instructions, although I'm a bit confused by the use of port/starboard/aft/forward in them, repeated here:

round lower 1 (aft) from port

round upper 1 (starboard) from aft

round lower 4 from starboard

round upper 4 from forward

round lower 2 from port

round upper 2 from aft

round lower 3 from starboard

round upper 3 from forward

to exit



Mike

[rene460]

Hi Mike,

Those are excellent pictures.  As mentioned in the earlier part of this thread my current boat is a 30i which has a very different scheme.  My previous one was a trailerable, but the keel was 400 kg.  I learned a little about it in 20 years on our shallow waterway that may help you solve the problem.

The four sheeve tackle has a lot of friction especially when the rope falls rub on each other, clearly wrong in the last pictures, but properly reeved, as discussed in earlier posts, it should allow a strong man to lift the keel, which I believe to be the original intent, at least on other versions of the 32.  However the friction means that you get nothing near the eight times advantage that simplified analysis suggests, so the winch is a good solution.   With the winch, I suspect that you do not need four sheeve blocks, with triple blocks you do not have to wind up as much rope and the reduction in friction means you do not loose as much mechanical advantage as you would expect.  A triple purchase is also a bit easier to rig without too much rope rubbing, but you still have to take care to keep the forces balance so they hang straight.  You might even get away with a double, but how much force you need depends on where the attachment point on the keel is relative to the pin.  If you have some spare blocks available it's worth the experiment when up on the hard.  If you can lift it on land, it will be a bit easier in the water as the keel will be a little lighter.
That lower block seems to spend a lot of time in the water.  It will not be too easy to clean in place, I suggest replacement (preferably with a larger diameter) to help by reducing friction, you can clean it up to use next time.  
Finally the turning block outside the table has about 160 deg wrap.  If you can mount it a bit lower to give 90 deg or less without rubbing, (I suggest 4 bolts if possible), it will help reduce friction by reducing both pin load and rope bending.  Friction is not your friend.
I hope that these ideas will help you to sort it out.
rene460

[mikebz]

Thanks Rene.  I was a bit nervous taking the pics - I would have had some tricky explaining to do if I'd dropped my 2 day old 'phone down the case...

The problem with the turning block rigged as shown in the pictures is that the rope leads onto the winch at the wrong angle and ends up jamming itself on the winch - the first picture shows this about to happen.   With the rope lead the other way around that block, so there is a near-360 degree wrap, it actually works a lot better.  It's a decent Harken ball-bearing block so not much friction added there.  I wonder if the blocks inside the case are ball-bearing types.

Anyway, it sounds as though I need to get the boat ashore to investigate properly.

Cheers,

Mike

[rene460]

Hi Mike,

I see what you mean about the winch.  Could you install a wedge shape pad under it to avoid that problem without being too ugly in the cabin?  At least it seems to be installed to one side so the turning block has a fair lead direction.

Alternatively, can you pack out the exit block mounting so the rope exits clear of the wood on its way to the winch?  Then you have one less turning block required.

I think that you will find the blocks have plain bearings, as the usual wisdom is that balls develop flat spots when under continuous load without movement, such as our centreboards in the up position, though I have never taken one apart to see, and I am not sure whether this happens only close to the max working load rating or also at much lower loads, or how much movement is required - they work ok on main sheets.

rene460

[mikebz]

Scrapping the external block and packing out and inverting the exit sheave would probably do the job quite well. The wood behind the external block is a bit of a mess - it looks as though the block has been screwed on (and torn off) in a couple of different ways. 

Good point about the balls going square in BB blocks. 

[mikebz]

I have now replaced the shiny & stiff 10mm rope with 8mm matt braid and rerigged it to Troubadour's specification and it has completely transformed it - I can now pull the plate up until it clunks into the fully up position without using the winch.  It takes quite a heave but it is doable and is faster and easier than using the winch.  I should be even easier after I've had my hernia fixed!
One of the issues with the old rope is that it was attached to the eye at the top of the case with a very long splice, which made it too thick to go through the pulley when the plate was near the top of its travel, causing the lower blocks to tip and twist as they approached the top.

[rene460]

Well done Mike, it looks like you have the problem sorted.  Now if you can just get that winch and its lead in right, you will be able to sail while you wait for that hernia.

rene460

[billy]

Hi all
i’ve just recently bought a 2008 SO32i wheel steer, lifting keel.
Generally very happy but just sorting a few things to my liking.
With quite a bit of effort i can lift the keel to a ‘clunk’, seems smooth and manageable, for now.
I would like to have a look at the pulleys etc., is it safe to open the hatch under the table with the boat in the water?
Billy

[rene460]

Hi Billy,

I expect that the inspection hatch under the table is intended to allow you to inspect the lifting gear while you are in the water if necessary, very similar to the one on my 30i.  You can get some idea from the hatch height above the low point in the bilge compared with .  On my 30i the bottom of that inspection hatch is only about 30 mm above the water line, so I only use it when tied up in the marina in still conditions.  I was very careful the first time I opened it, and ready to abort and retighten the hatch if there was any sign of water entering.  All was ok.  The hatch is sealed by an o-ring, plastic threads on that hatch would not seal well so there would be obvious leakage as soon as the o-ring lifts of the seat, but while the threads are still engaged to hold the hatch in place.

It would make no sense to me to have an easily removable plastic hatch the only thing keeping your boat afloat, but proceed with caution.

Please let us know how you go.

Rene460

[billy]

Thankyou rene,
Sounds like it will be wise to wait until the boat is lifted for a first look.
I will have a look at extending the rope to the coachroof where i have an electric winch to do the ‘work’
Billy

[rene460]

Hi Billy,

When the boat is lifted, you no longer really know where the waterline is, so perhaps not much further ahead.  For rope replacement and any other work, I prefer to be in the yard as it is too easy to drop something and it could make things difficult if you are afloat and something dropped jams the board.  Better that anything dropped lands on the ground in the yard, and the board can easily be lifted from below if necessary.

rene460

[mikebz]

I took the pics and reroped the system through the hatch with the boat afloat. It’s some way above the waterline. Was very nervous taking the pics with my 2 day old company ‘phone though!