360 Docking?

[maby]

Anyone got any direct experience of the Jeanneau 360 docking system? We really like the concept and are coming close to ordering it on the next boat, but I'm worried about reliability and would welcome your experiences.

In particular, I only just learned that boats with the 360 fitted do not have a reverse gear - they rely on spinning the pod very quickly and driving the prop in forward revolutions. I can see the advantages in terms of lack of propwalk and full thrust in reverse, but if that pod jams, you could find yourself without the ability to stop - how reliable is it?

P.S. Apologies if this has already been discussed - I tried to search, but the board does not permit a search for "360"!

[Zanshin]

Hello maby - the subject hasn't been discussed here, yet. While at the dealer and picking up my boat last year I had the opportunity to discuss the 360 docking system with the dealer's main technician and he wasn't very happy with it. He had cases where the pod would turn partway and then stop (blown fuse, mechanical issue, etc.) leaving the boat unmaneuverable since the steering wheel gets locked when using the docking system.
On the other hand, these were early teething issues and Jeanneau was very responsive and by this time there are quite a few 360 docking boats out there and I'm certain that the system has become a lot more reliable.
I'm pretty happy with a classic steering system and a hefty bowthruster.

[maby]

Thanks for that. The concept is attractive, but I'm beginning to get nervous about the execution. We were looking at the Bavaria equivalent and it seems a lot more pragmatic - a stern thruster as well as a bow thruster and leave the prop always pointing backwards. Doesn't have the "wow" factor, but it's all proven technology and any component can fail without leaving you any worse off than you would be with a basic boat.

I'm beginning to think that it will be the boring old bow thruster - we'll save almost £15k!

[tedp]

Sept 17, 2012 7:34:18 GMT Zanshin said:

....
I'm pretty happy with a classic steering system and a hefty bowthruster.

I would like to echo that, as simplicity is your friend when going to sea. Being a firm advocate of the old-fashioned spring line, I would even like to add that a bowthruster may be very useful on a big heavy boat like Zanshin, but it is as good as unnecessary on anything under 40ft.
(run for cover...)

[Don Reaves]

I don't have direct experience with the 360 system, but a friend at my marina has one. He has been stranded a number of times, having to await parts and repairs in foreign ports. In fact, after the most recent episode this summer, he had to make his way home without reverse, which was quite a project.

For me, simplicity and reliability would win over convenience.

Don

[maby]

... and why do manufacturers insist on putting the throttle down at floor level? I had forgotten that the Jeanneau DS range all shove it down at that ridiculous place since we were assuming that the 360 docking control would be used for all close quarters work. Now, if we don't go for the 360, we are having to reconsider Jeanneau altogether. The next upgrade may well be Beneteau - they still put the throttle up high on the binnacle.

[gdefalco]

I have the 360 on my 44i, and have now been through two full seasons with it. First season there were bugs, primarily due to to voltage hyper-sensitivity on the part of the drive system 'brain'. Also the original joystick was not 100% water proof. No 'mechanical' issues were encountered.

Jeanneau was very responsive to all the issues. In the off season last winter Jeanneau installed a recall kit that replaced and/or upgraded every electronic part of the 360 system as well as the bowthruster battery cables & joystick. The system has worked flawlessly since then.

I like the simplicity of the Bavaria system as well, though I doubt the thrusters will have anything like the power of the 360 drive. The Jeanneau/ZF drive is very powerful (since it is using the main engine). I have used in 25kt gusts with no problems.

No offense to the purists, but I cannot imagine ever buying a boat again without some type of 'joystick' control. I want to enjoy myself when sailing (often shorthanded), not stressing about getting in and out of the slip. These systems are a game changer. Companies will come up with different solutions to the problem of close quarters maneuvering, but in my opinion they will become more and more prevalent.

Best of luck with whatever you purchase!

[maby]

Thanks, gdefalco, that's useful feedback. We keep coming back to the Jeanneaus because they are such good looking boats. If it were not for the lack of reverse gear, it would be a done deal - the 360 is complicated stuff and I would be prepared for it to fail - especially when the boat is getting round to 10 years old or more. I disagreeumption was that it would always "fail safe" and I could be sure of bringing it home even if I had to do it the old fashioned way.

In those early cases when you had failures, how did you recover? I believe there is some form of manual override that allows you to turn the saildrive in the event of a systems failure - how does that work and how quickly can you regain control?

[Zanshin]

Maby - I have to agree with "fail-safe" on boats. I almost went for another boat when I found out that the standard engine on my boat is a modified VW-Jetta engine... I didn't want a super-efficient and powerful engine that relied on electronics to run but after discussions with the engine manufacturer and perusing the documentation I saw that the electronics and sensors are designed to fail in "safe" mode, the engine would keep on running but with less and less horsepower and even if all the electrics were shot the motor would still chug away.
I'd want my steering and propulsion systems to be like that. I lost my rudder once and it was not a nice feeling to have an engine running and a prop attached but to not be able to do anything with them.

[maby]

P.S. I am aware that "disagreeumption" is not a word - for some reason, no matter how many times I try to update my post, the board software always changes it back!

[gdefalco]

Maby - I did not experience any mechanical failures last summer, only electronic issues. In each case I was able to 're-boot' the system in about 5 seconds. I just shut the motor off then restarted it.

There is also a cable supplied in case of a complete computer meltdown, that relays commands directly from the throttle to the engine. You only have forward gear though. I have not had to do this but the connection is straightforward, no pun intended.

In the case of mechanical failure (i.e. drive locked in reverse), there is a procedure to release the rotating clutch and manually center the drive for forward thrust. The procedure is well documented though unless no help was available I would just call BoatUS for a tow.

[Black Diamond]

I have a 39iP, no thruster, standard shaft with folding prop. Love it! Stay away from these gadgets. Learn to control your boat naturally. Use the wind to your advantage when docking. Make compensations as needed. I can literally make my boat do a 180 on a dime, with only a prop. I see these guys with bow thrusters and they still can't dock their boats. Recently a boat came to our club with the 360 docking, they guys looked like a fool, the boat was rocking and rolling all over the place.

[tedp]

'Re-booting the system... A procedure to release the rotating clutch and manually center the drive....'

I understand not everyone is comfortable with docking under difficult conditions using a prop and rudder, the wind and occasionally a spring line, especially if a big heavy boat is involved. Anyone can find himself in a fix, even the most experienced sailor.

But re-booting sequences and handbooks for manual procedures won't help you in an emergency, like getting off a lee shore fast, or out of a busy shipping lane when you have a failure.

I would say these systems need to be made fail safe and double quick to override, with full forward and reverse functionality, before they are remotely suitable for use on a seagoing vessel. They would not pass certification on a commercial ship in their present state.

And they are never a substitute for proper seamanship and knowledge and experience of basic ship handling.

[Zanshin]

tedp - remember that the system is used only for docking - not to get off a lee shore or out of the way. The only point in time where a failure of a 360 docking system might lead to problems is during the docking/undocking process and not thereafter.
I come from flying where fail-safe and K.I.S.S. is quite important and thus I'm predisposed against the docking system but would love to have one considering how my pulse and blood pressure shoot up when I approach the dock.

[tedp]

Yes I understand - but you have 50+ foot of boat to dock, and a bow thruster to help in turning. A friend of mine has a 40ft 'long keel' boat which won't turn inside the marina without a bow thruster. Having one on such a boat is good common sense.

My roots are in merchant shipping and ICT so I have the same doubts you seem to have, plus the added mistrust of computerized systems!

360 systems have been with us for a long time, in commercial shipping: tugboats, mobile drilling rigs etc., but they have to be quite reliable before they're allowed to be used and certified.

What worries me most is you don't have a reverse if the electronics break down and you need to use the override.

[maby]

Sept 27, 2012 8:55:05 GMT Zanshin said:

tedp - remember that the system is used only for docking - not to get off a lee shore or out of the way. The only point in time where a failure of a 360 docking system might lead to problems is during the docking/undocking process and not thereafter.
I come from flying where fail-safe and K.I.S.S. is quite important and thus I'm predisposed against the docking system but would love to have one considering how my pulse and blood pressure shoot up when I approach the dock.

This would be true if the boat still had a reverse gear in the saildrive. Since it doesn't, you are dependent on the 360 working simply to stop in a hurry. Having stopped, you could find yourself unable to go forward if the 360 fails at that point. Worse still, there is potential for a failure with the saildrive partially rotated - leaving you going round and round on the spot.

I had made the assumption that I would still have a mechanical reverse gear available and could live with the possibility of the failure of the docking system - just leaving me in the same position as a boat without the 360 installed. When you are paying a couple of hundred grand for a boat, you expect it to last ten or twenty years (more, really) and I'm not very optimistic about these systems still working reliably at that age.

I'm happy to just have the bow thruster and do it the old fashioned way, but I was relying on the 360 with its joystick to overcome the stupid position of the mechanical throttle. Now investigating the possibility of getting the throttle repositioned before we put in an order.

[westwind]

We have completed 2 seasons with the 360 system on our 50 DS. The first year we had many problems until the upgrade last winter. We had an uneventful second season it it was a delight for difficult docking especially in unfamiliar marinas while cruising. No regrets; I would not buy a boat of this size without a similar system.ZF service has been excellent.

A few lessons learned.
1- even though the new joystick is "waterproof" we keep it covered when not in use.
2- the system is sensitive to low voltage in the house battery bank and if you keep the boat at a morning or sail for a long time with electric winches, frig, and autopilot you can lower the voltage. It is best to run the engine or generator for 15 or twenty minutes before engaging the 360 if the batteries are below 12.4 volts.
3-it is best to turn on the navigation system (360 is wired to the same circuit) before starting the engine. If you forget to turn on the nav circuit, the 360 will initially engage but then fault. You then need to restart the engine to regain control.
4-if the house battery is really dead, the electronic throttle will not work even though you are able to start the engine with the start battery.
5-the ZF warranty requires a 50 hour sail drive gear oil change which requires the boat to be hauled. You should try to negotiate that service as part of the original purchase.