ZF 360 Docking replaced with a Yanmar SD60 saildrive

[jim]

I have recently replaced my ZF 360 Docking system with a conventional SD60 saildrive. This summer on 4 different occasions there were engine control failures even though the 360 system wasnt being used. One resulted in going aground (and drying out) on a mudbank and one other could have been far more serious. ZF Marine Nottingham attended twice but despite their best efforts (and a new throttle unit) it failed on two more occasions subsequently.
The cost of replacing the whole system with an SD 60 with a cable throttle was around £10k. Not cheap but at least I can now use the boat with confidence.
The refit was carried out by French Marine Motors of Brightlingsea (though they are willing to travel) and they would also be able to carry out replacement of the diaphragm/gaiter on this system - an issue that has been raised in this forum before.

If anyone is interested in further details (or spares - I have the whole old system in storage) please PM me.

[Tom]

I'm both shocked and not surprised - these systems are very complex. Our boat is in the southeast US. I've made several calls to ZF dealers about getting the unit serviced. In every case the response has been that they have zero experience. So, if there was ever an issue how would they go about diagnosing and fixing?
Having said that, we bought our boat earlier this year at the end of our sailing season. So we've only been on her for about 2 months. While I was initially very sceptical of the 360 system, I had decided to start to try using it in early 2022 when our sailing season begins in earnest. In some marinas it could be really useful (but maybe not - I want to find out).
Do you think your issues were mechanical or electrical or electronic (meaning the programing/software system)?
Tom, Alchemyst 45DS #312

[jim]

Hi Tom. The issues were probably electronic - never got a definitive reply from ZF Marine. I am not aware of any engineers in the UK apart from ZF Marine who know much about the system, especially electronic or software issues, and I am guessing this will be the same in most countries - the volumes are too small and too dispersed to make it worthwhile having all the diagnostics and training etc.

[Tom]

Hi Jim - I have spoken to a boatyard in Florida about the system. 

They make a good point that the throttle by wire (and not steel cable) is well known and proven. All newer trawler style cruising boats, large luxury power boats, sport fish boats etc have the helm too far removed from the engine to allow for cable control. So they all use an electrically operated actuator system with great success and reliability.

My ship's engineer friend says that tug boats all have used a type of pod drive for decades. Known system, good results.

The previous owner of our boat never used the joystick, thinking he therefore wasn't using the 360 degree system. But, in reality yes he was. Everytime one goes from forward to reverse its being engaged. And then when going from reverse to forward.

We've hardly used the boat since buying, but I intend to start using the joystick this January.

Tom, Alchemyst, 45DS, #312

[jim]

Hi Tom - yes, fly-by-wire technology is well established and so are azimuth (rotating) drives in tugs, offshore supply boats, anchor handling tugs etc (I work in shipping). Also ZF Marine are highly respected in these fields - this gave me confidence when I purchased it. I am aware that the throttle is using the 360 Docking system control units to work the actuator (which open/closes the throttle). What I meant was that it didnt happen whilst only in joystick mode, just normal forward/reverse operation. Unfortunately a system fault cannot be bypassed by just not using the joystick and sticking with the forward and reverse gears.
One of the factors in swapping it out was the lack of support around the coast here in the UK - I couldnt find anybody willing to touch it. No doubt someone will now pop up and say 'I know someone who can do it!' but ZF Marine UK were unable to suggest anyone.

I look forward to hearing how you get on with it next season but the main point of my post was to advise that it can be done (others here have suggested otherwise), it is not eye-wateringly expensive (I realise a subjective view, but a similar cost to a new set of laminate sails - and not £20k as someone here or maybe on YBW suggested) and if someone is interested in doing so then I have some background info that they may find useful.

[NZL50505]

This is the problem with bleeding-edge technology and it’s a shame that ZF can’t effectively stand by its own product by offering a global network of qualified service agents. Presumably it’s not economic for them so they don’t make this investment. Which effectively transfers the problem to owners.

I think you did the right thing by making the switch and stories like this would make a ZF drive a show-stopper for me on any future purchase regardless of how good the rest of the boat is. The ZF would just be a ticking time-bomb in my mind!

[Tom]

Jeanneau and Beneteau qualified ZF as a supplier and therefore should take blame here as well. Its not a technology issue so much as a service issue. When I spoke to ZF they directed me to a list of qualified service agents listed on their site. Its not a big list (here in the US). I called people on that list, focusing on the east coast and the midwest (latter is where I live and could potentially pick up parts).  Several "agents" said, no they didn't work with ZF, didn't know them etc. Others said that they worked on ZF large commercial gearboxes and the like (think tugs etc), and some said no, they serviced ZF gearboxes on road equipment (trucks etc). In fairness, I did speak to ADR Marine who have several offices in Florida. While they said they had very little experience servicing the 360 system, they were willing to do so if I ever needed work. ADR was highly recommended to me as well, by our boatyard - who said they've had nothing but good experiences with them.
As I see it, any mechanical work could be handled by ADR or any other competent company with saildrive experience. Similarly, the throttle actuator system is well known and readily serviced. The issue is the electronic control of the rotation. I'm feeling more confident about the system versus when we first took possession, but only time will tell.
Tom, Alchemyst, 45DS #312

[NZL50505]

You’re obviously based in the US - and so you’re lucky to have someone like ADR within reach.

Unfortunately not everywhere enjoys such a rich tapestry of service agents and the likes of ZF, Jeanneau and others should remember that by design their products end up all over the world!

[taikohax]

Hey there Jim - I don't suppose you still have those 360 docking parts available do you?
(Or indeed has anyone else swapped theirs out) 

ZF are quoting insane money for a replacement of mine (which has killed itself to death)

[jim]

Hi, yes. They should be in storage in Essex. PM me for what you need and will check it out

[steveklain]

Jim - I am considering changing our ZF system on a Beneteau Oceanis 48 to an standard SD60.  Having gone through the project on your own vessel, are you able to tell me the likely modifications that may need to be made to the boat outside of what seems obvious (disconnect all ZF controls and wiring, remove ZF joystick, remove ZF throttle control and replace with standard wired throttle and shifter control).  A video I saw of someone doing this very thing indicated that the engine mounts needed to be modified as the SD60 mating surface to the engine was both lower and further aft than the ZF unit.  Thanks in advance for any useful information you can provide.  

[rockstar]

Hi all Francis here from Sundance I have the 360 docking system on the boat JEANNEAU 469 2014. I had to replace the throttle in 2016 under warranty now my
ACTUATOR PART NO. 129671-77000 has packed up and I am having great difficulty getting a replacement do you have one in your spares?
Regards Francis Dublin Ireland,

[qtracer]

Jim, I read your posts on going to the SD 60 from the 360 Docking, I may be doing the same. However, it looks as I may only initially need the ZF Throttle as all else still works on my systems. Please let me know if you have the ZF Throttle available for sale?

Thank you,

[qtracer]

Sept 10, 2022 19:26:27 GMT steveklain said:

Jim - I am considering changing our ZF system on a Beneteau Oceanis 48 to an standard SD60.  Having gone through the project on your own vessel, are you able to tell me the likely modifications that may need to be made to the boat outside of what seems obvious (disconnect all ZF controls and wiring, remove ZF joystick, remove ZF throttle control and replace with standard wired throttle and shifter control).  A video I saw of someone doing this very thing indicated that the engine mounts needed to be modified as the SD60 mating surface to the engine was both lower and further aft than the ZF unit.  Thanks in advance for any useful information you can provide.  

steveklain - let me know which direction you are going with a potential replacement. I have a 2012 Beneteau Oceanis 50 with ZF Dock & Go (just like Jeanneau 360 Docking) and am considering going to the SD60 as well. I too saw the video from the owner in Panama doing the change, I believe he did the change because his ZF saildrive was shot due to electrolysis.

I am in need of the ZF Throttle, everything else in my system is good. If you do the change maybe I could source the ZF throttle from you or if anyone on the forum has or knows of a ZF throttle available? Else, if I go with the SD 60, I will have all 360 docking (dock & go) parts available (sans ZF throttle) for others that want to keep the system and need parts. 

[jim]

Hi qtracer - the throttle is still available and have sent you a message. Cheers Jim

[bbaker001]

Nov 17, 2022 11:26:26 GMT jim said:

Hi qtracer - the throttle is still available and have sent you a message. Cheers Jim

Hi, I also recently had a ZF throttle Dock 360 fail that I am looking for a replacement. Any help on used or new sources would be appreciated. 

[cb67]

We have the ZF 360 system on our Jeanneau and it has worked very well for us.  It is something that has been around for quite a number of years now and is still available from Beneteau on new boats.  
Hopefully you are able to find the right people to get yours working properly.  It sounds like this is less of a technology issue and more of a "lack of service technician" issue. 

Good luck and take care.