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Post by rxc on Sept 21, 2021 15:05:22 GMT
This is starting to make a bit more sense, but brings up more questions. You have 7 AGM batteries arranged in parallel as a house bank, one(?) AGM starting battery, and 4x12v AGM batteries up forward arranged in a parallel/series 2x2 configuration, correct? Do you also have a genset and starting battery for it, as well? Is it completely isolated from the main boat DC system?
And 2 x 30 amp battery chargers? I would also assume that you have a standard 80-100 amp alternator on your engine, with a standard voltage regulator on it. With a battery isolator thrown into the system, at some unknown location in the system, introducing an unknown voltage drop.
I would wonder how you can charge all of these batteries with only 60 amps of capacity, and how you determine that they are "fully charged". 30 amps to 7 batteries means that you can only push about 4 amps into each battery at a time. It should take you a while to fully charge them. Same with the bow thruster batteries - we don't know whether your charger is rated for 30 amps at 12v, or 30 amps at 24v. If it is a 12v charger, how is it wired into the batteries?
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Post by Evening Star on Sept 21, 2021 15:06:09 GMT
I have a 2 year old 479 and the batteries are wired as yours are. I also have the Simarine PICO system. Check your settings in the PICO head unit for your batteries. You need the correct 20 hour discharge rate (also asks for additional discharge rates if you can get them) I had to go to the battery manufacturer for them. This will give you the most accurate SOC within the PICO monitor. I have 2 Cristec 40 AMP chargers. One is wired only to the house bank and one is wired to the house, starter and bow thruster banks. The battery isolator off the alternator is wired to all three banks. My isolator failed and was replaced by Jeanneau so they can fail. The only thing I can add is to follow the steps from other owners above to see if you have a bad battery. I have 7 105 AH AGMs and drop about .8% an hour at anchor with inverter use for computers, TV etc. Hope this helps.
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Post by virtualburton on Oct 3, 2021 23:41:26 GMT
Hi guys - quick update: I have had guests and work so haven't been able to do much one the batteries. On Friday I stopped in not the local yacht service company and made an appointment to have my freezer re-charged. We got to talking a=nd when I told him my boat model he told me there is an identical boat in their yard right now. He has exactly the same problem I have with the batteries not lasting, identical situation, age of batteries, etc. so he told me he'll let me know what they find out. In the mean time I am installing some digital switching and have been tracing wires to align with the schematics. the only schematics I have found are for a 479 and my boat is 2013 469, but they're close. I have found a few differences and a few wires that are not labelled. Does anyone have any specs of the port side DC DIN rail and what is supposed to go where? I took a photo and traced the following wires, but the large cable that I "think" supplies power has no label/number on it. It is labelled "unknown" on my photo. Does anyone know where it comes from or where the power is supposed to come to/from? I am confused as to why there appear to be 3 power "in" and don't know if the power goes in at the top of the grey boxes and out the bottom or ? I couldn't find any manufacturer part numbers or info on the DIN rail. I'm not sure what the grey "boxes" do - are they shutoffs? Just connection points?? Any info is appreciated. and some of you asked about my battery isolator - here's a photo of that too: David
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Post by virtualburton on Oct 3, 2021 23:51:40 GMT
I have a 2 year old 479 and the batteries are wired as yours are. I also have the Simarine PICO system. Check your settings in the PICO head unit for your batteries. You need the correct 20 hour discharge rate (also asks for additional discharge rates if you can get them) I had to go to the battery manufacturer for them. This will give you the most accurate SOC within the PICO monitor. I have 2 Cristec 40 AMP chargers. One is wired only to the house bank and one is wired to the house, starter and bow thruster banks. The battery isolator off the alternator is wired to all three banks. My isolator failed and was replaced by Jeanneau so they can fail. The only thing I can add is to follow the steps from other owners above to see if you have a bad battery. I have 7 105 AH AGMs and drop about .8% an hour at anchor with inverter use for computers, TV etc. Hope this helps. Thanks so much - yours sounds identical to mine. I made a mistake above, they are 2 40 am Cristec chargers, wired to the isolator like yours. Same amp-hour ratings as yours too. My batteries are all Discover AGM model EV31A-A. The specs that I can fins are shown here: These look even better than what I saw on top of the battery (20hr=120AH) vs what I entered in the Pico (105AH): I only see 20HR and 5HR, and that's what I entered in the Pico, times 7, so I entered: 20HR - 7*105=805AH 5 HR - 7*96=672AH. Is this right? Thanks! David
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Post by virtualburton on Oct 9, 2021 5:04:24 GMT
Bump!
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Post by moonshadow on Oct 11, 2021 10:07:37 GMT
As to the 12 volt rail- at the end of the electrical pages of my owners manual there is a list of what is supposed to be mounted at each of these outputs by number. A few are empty as they were provided for options. And some I have put into use for cabin fans etc. Let me know if you don’t have this numbered list.
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petros42
Full Member
Posts: 31
Jeanneau Model: SO 419
Yacht Name: Pole Dancer
Home Port: Gabriola
Country: Canada
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Post by petros42 on Oct 12, 2021 1:22:55 GMT
Jumping in late on this interesting discussion.
So I think there are 3 possible causes: a bad cell (or multiple), misconfigured charging, or unexpected load. I'd want to check the batteries FIRST since drawing down the entire bank to less than 12V is decreasing the life of the entire battery bank.
1) I'd be inclined to disconnect the batteries and measure the voltage of each battery with a quality voltmeter. If one battery has a bad/weak cell, it will show a lower voltage than the other batteries. Once bad cell can draw down the entire bank.
2) If you don't want to disconnect them all, you could also disconnect the bank from the boat, but leave the bank fully connected to each other. If it is a bad cell, I think the batteries will deplete even if there is no load.
I hope you get this resolved soon.
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Post by virtualburton on Oct 12, 2021 2:38:07 GMT
As to the 12 volt rail- at the end of the electrical pages of my owners manual there is a list of what is supposed to be mounted at each of these outputs by number. A few are empty as they were provided for options. And some I have put into use for cabin fans etc. Let me know if you don’t have this numbered list. Hi moonshadow, thanks for always helping out. I owe you more than one beer if we ever meet up! I do have the list and figured that out, but what it does not say is what the large wires in do or where they are from. On my boat there is an AG2, and AG3 and also an AG4. The only schematics I have found are for a 479 so guessing there are some small differences. For anyone interested - I have installed the Simarine Pico and integrated it to all on my battery banks (3), all 5 tanks (water, waste and fuel) as well as shunts in the main house bank line, the fridge, freezer and latest the Inverter. If anyone has any questions about how to tie in to the factory tanks with Scheiber gauges, etc. DM and I can help. I think some of the issue I am having is when the shore power is off and the inverter is on, I am seeing ~65a draw, 35 from the Inverter. When I turn the inverter off with the shore power off the load is still ~30 amps draw from House. This should not be the case so I suspect something has been added to the boat or is faulty that is drawing so much load. I will continue troubleshooting and update the board. petros42 thanks very much. I agree and got the same advise from the local shop - disconnect the batteries and measure the voltages of each battery isolated from the others to detect a bad cell. Tomorrow I have to go away on business for the week so plan to do that when I get back. Thanks guys - hope everyone is staying safe. feel free to reach out with questions, I think I've finally got the main points of this boat and her electrical system understood. I have also installed a Siren Marine 3 Pro and 3rd MFD - a Garmin along with a Garmin OnDeck and networked them all together with NMEA2000. I have all of them working with remote access and switching... I'm bringing her electrical up from 2013 to 2021! David
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Post by rdubs on Oct 18, 2021 14:59:58 GMT
Hi David. A little late to the party here but I also used to own a SO469 and had the Simarine Pico battery monitoring installed and also have had to troubleshoot electrical drain problems. One boat I had was so bad that after the solar charging all day the house bank was at 10.5 volts by midnight.
My 469 had 5 main house batteries (two on the starboard side, three on the port), I used Group 31 AGM's, it had one generator start battery (a small Group 24), an engine start battery (located under the stairwell forward of the engine), and 4 bow thruster batteries in a series/parallel (24 volt) configuration. Like Moonshadow, that bank was charged via a step-up transformer as opposed to a real 115VAC charger. I also had 2 Critech (sp?) 40A chargers.
I think I read you put your Pico shunt in line with the positive cable. I put mine in on the ground side of the house bank to make sure I was getting every last ounce of energy flow recorded, both in and out.
About the drain. Faced this before. At a high level, there are two ways batteries drain:
1) External uses from outside the battery bank, i.e., electrical loads.
2) Internal drains within the battery bank, i.e., bad batteries.
When you have both going on at the same time it can be frustrating.
The first thing to do is get the internal drains identified and eliminated and only then can you see how bad the external drain problem is, if any. Folks here have mentioned removing the batteries individually and examining the voltage drop over time. I found a bit of a shortcut to do that, what you do is put a good charge in the batteries (let them charge on shore power for a day or so) and then one at a time, disconnect either the positive or negative cable (I usually disconnect the positive). You don't need to disconnect both terminals, just one, and no need to remove the battery. Then put a hand-held digital multimeter across the terminals (make sure one is disconnected) and look for two things: 1) is the voltage near where it should be from a charged battery (north of 12.8V) and 2) is the voltage dropping. If the voltage stays north of 12.8 and barely moves after a few minutes then that battery likely isn't your problem; reconnect it and move to the next one. Test them all one at a time like that. If you can see the voltage dropping meaningfully or if the voltage is less than 12.8 after a good charge then that's your problem, there is an internal short/bad cell. Remove that/those batteries from the bank.
EDIT: If there is a really bad battery it can prevent the charger from ever fully charging the batteries so even good batteries will never get up to 12.8. Just charge the bank for a good day on shore power then run the disconnect tests and if there is a battery that bad you should be able to see the voltage dropping fast once disconnected.
Once you've removed any self-sabotaging batteries draining the bank, you can do a final test if you want. Charge up the batteries, turn off the charger, turn off all the loads and disconnect the main positive or negative cable. It's important to disconnect the main cable as opposed to just flipping the disconnect switch because you want to test the battery bank itself without running the risk of an external drain. Then let it sit for a day and check the voltage of the bank using a digital multimeter. The banks should have stayed north of 12.8, this will verify there aren't any internal drains and the batteries themselves will hold a charge. Then you're ready to tackle the external drains.
For this, the first thing to do is determine if the drain is caused by an isolated load or an unisolated load (i.e., one which draw energy even if everything is turned off). To do this, charge up the batteries, leave the main house and ground black disconnect switches in the regular on position, then turn off the charger and run a load like the refrigerator for a few minutes in order to remove the "surface charge" on the batteries. Then turn off all electrical loads on the main panel (again leaving the house and ground main switches in the on position) and turn off any other loads you can think of (except the Pico, I usually leave that on, doesn't take much energy). Record the voltage (right on the Pico is fine, it's pretty accurate) then come back the next day and look at the voltage again. If the voltage stayed near the same, then you don't have an unisolated drain and you should thank your lucky stars because those are extremely difficult to find. If the voltage did drop, then something outside of the battery bank but before any controllable electrical loads is draining power.
Assuming the voltage did not drop, that means your drain is coming from a specific piece of gear on the main DC bus and is a controllable one. Start by (with the charger off) turning on the switches on the main panel one at a time and record the current shown on the Pico. Note that some loads are constant like the navigation instruments / cabin lighting but others will cycle like the fridge.
Sounds like you're well on your way. I miss my old 469, it was wrecked by Hurricane Dorian in 2019 in the Bahamas (the boat was in Marsh Harbor when that Cat 5 went right over it).
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Post by Evening Star on Oct 18, 2021 17:12:38 GMT
What sensors did you use for your waste tanks? I used Gobius sensors for the aft tank, but they will not fit in the space around the forward tank. I tried the Safray sensors form Australia but they did not work in tanks that get pumped out because of the left over residue at the bottom of the tank. Thanks
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