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Post by earnric on Aug 14, 2021 17:01:06 GMT
Got to the boat today and the electric winch above the master head was leaking oil down under the floor. Touching the winch casing itself it's red hot. The winch isn't running.
How do I get it disconnected so it doesn't burn the boat down?
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Post by Charlie-Bravo on Aug 14, 2021 17:19:35 GMT
Hi, sounds alarming, switch off all batteries and switches and find an electrical guru, ....... unless you enjoy learning fast
CB
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Post by earnric on Aug 14, 2021 17:50:56 GMT
Hi, sounds alarming, switch off all batteries and switches and find an electrical guru, ....... unless you enjoy learning fast CB I found the breakers to the winches and switch them off so hopefully at least have it under control until I can find an electrician. Thanks!!!!
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Post by Charlie-Bravo on Aug 14, 2021 18:15:21 GMT
If it all cools nicely, .... that's cool, good luck finding a tame sparky. CB
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Post by NZL50505 on Aug 14, 2021 19:58:18 GMT
Obviously some kind of malfunction or short around the winch area. The leaking oil suggests a leak at the seal between the gearbox and the motor itself. This often happens if the winch was recently serviced and the oil level refilled too high (easy to do by an overzealous non-expert). Don’t ask me how I know this 😊. Sorry just re-reading your post - this was not the anchor windlass but a sheet winch right? In which case ignore the oil comment. It’s possibly water ingress instead?
Regardless of the cause of the problem you should also investigate why your circuit breaker didn’t trip? It’s obviously supposed to cut power as soon as current / load becomes unsafely high to prevent this exact kind of scenario ie overheating and potentially worse.
Also be interesting to check state of battery(s) that supply windlass -they might have taken a hammering whilst this was happening.
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 14, 2021 21:40:20 GMT
The rubber on the switches beside the port electric winch can crack and let in salt water. I have heard of the winch starting up by itself but never experienced it myself. However, you said the winch wasn't running and that doesn't really point to the switches (unless it is jammed or stopped just before you arrived, unlikely). I'd expect the trip to go if the winch tried to start and was jammed (unless you changed it for a higher amperage version or it has failed, unlikely).
I would suggest always turning off the winch, windlass and thruster trips when not using them. I have seen warnings about fires caused by seawater seeping into winch or windlass electrics. Also danger from unexpected start-up. Our windlass and thruster are only on when about to be used. The winch is only on when we are sailing and off at anchor or moored.
It is easy to get access to the winch motor by unscrewing the small panel underneath. I cant' remember the details exactly but think you will find relay box plus motor and gearbox. It is pretty easy to dismantle the winch for cleaning and greasing and I do that regularly. I can't remember if you need to do that in order to remove the motor but you should see the retaining bolts from the access panel in the aft. heads. Trip and all battery switches off as suggested and only turned on if you are certain that connections to the winch have been removed and safely wrapped with no risk of a short.
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Post by NZL50505 on Aug 14, 2021 22:41:04 GMT
I forgot to say earlier that I had a runaway sheet winch a few months ago - caused by leaking / perished switches exposed to UV & water. Replaced switches and all good.
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Post by earnric on Aug 15, 2021 1:15:30 GMT
Thanks everyone... From now on the 3 electric winch breakers will be off unless I'm sailing. But now I'm worried about leaving the air conditioning on when I'm away from the boat!We've had a lot of heavy rain and thunderstorms over the last few days. I wouldn't be surprised if water worked its way into one of those switches. The rubber covering the mechanism is pretty beat up and in fact I had just ordered new ones online. Here are a few pictures of the underside of the winch that was white-hot: port side by the companion way (so main furler winch): I need to check the breaker and find out why it didn't trip... that's scary. However, without voltage I should be able to safely use the winch manually. Rick
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Post by NZL50505 on Aug 15, 2021 2:20:55 GMT
Is that oil on the cables? If so can you see where from? My original comment about checking the gasket / seal between motor and drive mechanism at bottom of winch might apply after all. But from the conditions you describe - heavy rain and well-worn switches - I’d say that’s your primary cause but possibly with secondary factors like oil leak. Have you checked if the winch will turn ie that it hasn’t seized? Because I could image one scenario could have been water enters perished switches, activates winch for a longer time, oil starts to leak, mechanism starts to get dry leading to seizing & heat etc?
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Post by earnric on Aug 15, 2021 13:48:52 GMT
@nzl50505
Yea, there is NO oil around the perimeter of the space up above the head -- I ran my hand around the edges: clean. It is all dripping down directly from the motor area... a lot of it! I should have taken a picture of the head floor, but you get the idea.
I'm heading back to the boat now, but the winch turns by hand... the buttons also seemed to work (when I left yesterday), but they do NOT engage the winch -- the just generate a spinning noise (after a very brief 'on' press).
I think the scenario you describe is very feasible... but why didn't the breaker pop?!?! Maybe it just stopped after several hours and after all the heating caused the oil to leak out?
Rick
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 15, 2021 18:56:04 GMT
I'd expect the winch to turn in one direction and a winch handle will depress the locking pin to allow manual use. It sounds as if the motor is still working and that's a good sign. You can disengage the drive by pushing the locking pin down (it is at the bottom of the hole where the winch handle goes. Perhaps it is jammed down but no idea why it would be in that position. There might be some sort of trigger to disengage it but I don't think one exists.
It could be stuck down if you inserted a winch handle to do a manual test after the overheating. I imagine you will need to dismantle the unit to see if there's a gearbox problem due to loss of oil.
The unit would be cool unless it had just stopped trying to turn shortly before you arrived, but you'd expect the trip to have gone off.
A more likely scenario would be some sort of partial short that was still happening when you arrived. A steady lower current wouldn't activate the trip and would allow heat to build up over time until seals failed and oil leaked out. It sounds logical but I can't work out what would fail to allow the current to remain below the trip point but not run the motor.
Did you hear the motor running when you arrived? I know you said it "isn't running but wondered if you heard anything at all. Were the batteries flat when you arrived?
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Post by earnric on Aug 16, 2021 12:20:17 GMT
MistromaI didn't hear anything upon arrival ... I only noticed the oil in the head. The batteries were fine since I have both solar and was connected to shore power. The winch seems to work fine - manually. So I guess the motor is the problem. However, I'll take apart the winch this coming weekend and make sure it has oil and everything looks 'ok'. I think I need a pro for the winch motor though. I'm terrible with electrics.
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 18, 2021 0:16:56 GMT
OK. You did say that the motor was making a spinning noise. If the noise sounds as if something is turning that would mean the motor isn't driving the winch. Did you put in a winch handle to turn the winch or did you just spin it by hand? Pushing a winch handle fully home disengages the motor. Perhaps the pin is stuck down if you did use a handle. I could imagine the pin being stiff if the winch became very hot and oil leaked out.
It could still be a fault with the motor, difficult to say without hearing the sound. Odd or intermittent sounds could indicate arcing, problems with brushes and other things (e.g. something seized). A smoother sound that seems to indicate steady rotation would make me think there's a problem transmitting drive to the winch.
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Post by earnric on Aug 18, 2021 15:33:38 GMT
OK. You di say that the motor was making a spinning noise. If the noise sounds as if something is turning that would mean the motor isn't driving the winch. Did you put in a winch handle to turn the winch or did you just spin it by hand? Pushing a winch handle fully home disengages the motor. Perhaps the pin is stuck down if you did use a handle. I could imagine the pin being stiff if the winch became very hot and oil leaked out. It could still be a fault with the motor, difficult to say without hearing the sound. Odd or intermittent sounds could indicate arcing, problems with brushes and other things (e.g. something seized). A smoother sound that seems to indicate steady rotation would make me think there's a problem transmitting drive to the winch. It wasn't spinning when I got there: just hot as hell. If I touched the button however, the motor spun but didn't engage the winch -- so what you say is likely. When I use the winch handle the winch works fine. So perhaps the pin is stuck down as you indicate. Know a good 'winch guy' here in the Annapolis area?!!? Rick
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 18, 2021 21:22:19 GMT
It wasn't spinning when I got there: just hot as hell. If I touched the button however, the motor spun but didn't engage the winch -- so what you say is likely. When I use the winch handle the winch works fine. So perhaps the pin is stuck down as you indicate. Know a good 'winch guy' here in the Annapolis area?!!? Rick The disconnect rod is quite long and goes into the gearbox. I think that the motor has a key on the shaft to drive the gear and isn't likely to have sheared. I'd guess that something is wrong inside the gearbox, possibly the part that the disconnect pin pushes down. I think that I might have a manual for the electric winch with instructions for dismantling. The gearbox on mine doesn't have a point to top up oil and is meant to be sealed. Taking the upper winch section apart is pretty easy and I've done it several times. I only remember using an allen key and a screwdriver. It should be simple to remove the gearbox/motor unit. Not much of a risk trying to split them at home if oil has already leaked out. Let me know if you'd like me to dig out the PDF. I would imagine that it will be fairly simple to work out why the motor isn't turning the winch. Discovering why it had a meltdown is likely to require some expertise.
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Post by Syrah on Aug 19, 2021 4:44:07 GMT
Greases are made from oil and soap. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grease_%28lubricant%29The high temperature you describe has lowered the overall viscosity of the grease in the winch, allowing the oil to separate and flow. After you have fixed the cause of the problem, I’d recommend re-greasing before putting the winch back in service.
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Post by earnric on Aug 19, 2021 11:35:49 GMT
Let me know if you'd like me to dig out the PDF. I would imagine that it will be fairly simple to work out why the motor isn't turning the winch. Discovering why it had a meltdown is likely to require some expertise. Sure if it isn't hard. I'll take a swing at taking it apart and trying to fix. I'm guessing that water got in through the switch... the rubber covering is old, somewhat brittle and cracked. Rick
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Post by earnric on Aug 19, 2021 11:36:33 GMT
Greases are made from oil and soap. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grease_%28lubricant%29The high temperature you describe has lowered the overall viscosity of the grease in the winch, allowing the oil to separate and flow. After you have fixed the cause of the problem, I’d recommend re-greasing before putting the winch back in service. Thanks... I'll be sure to do that when I get it off. Rick
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 20, 2021 11:52:42 GMT
Greases are made from oil and soap. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grease_%28lubricant%29The high temperature you describe has lowered the overall viscosity of the grease in the winch, allowing the oil to separate and flow. After you have fixed the cause of the problem, I’d recommend re-greasing before putting the winch back in service. Thanks... I'll be sure to do that when I get it off. Rick I'm pretty certain that the gearbox is lubricated by oil, not grease. You will be cleaning and re-greasing the top winch assembly anyway. It will be removed in order to drop the motor and gearbox under the deck and makes sense to clean and re-grease anyway. I usually use a brush and some diesel to clean all the bits when dismantling (You should find helpful videos on YouTube). That part isn't difficult and worth doing yourself and then making it a regular maintenance job. My electric winch came with a spare seal (in document bag) and I think it might be for the motor/gearbox connection. I remember reading a reply from Harken about oil leaking from the motor & gearbox area. It was on another forum and Harken said "the oil leak will be due to a failed seal between the motor and gearbox". I don't believe the oil in the aft. head is from degraded grease and is much more likely to have come from the gearbox.
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Post by earnric on Aug 20, 2021 13:39:13 GMT
Yea, I think the oil is from the gearbox as well. It was directly under the motor.
This weekend I'll pull the winch and re-greasing the winch as you suggest. And I'll see if I can disconnect the motor. I believe it is only bolted on with 2 bolts. It's the big electrical wires that scare me. Even with the break off, I hate touching those things!
Rick
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Post by Mistroma on Aug 20, 2021 23:58:57 GMT
Yea, I think the oil is from the gearbox as well. It was directly under the motor. This weekend I'll pull the winch and re-greasing the winch as you suggest. And I'll see if I can disconnect the motor. I believe it is only bolted on with 2 bolts. It's the big electrical wires that scare me. Even with the break off, I hate touching those things! Rick You can always disconnect the batteries as well as turning off the isolators. Of course you then run the risk of shorting a battery with a spanner. Use a rubber wrapped one and that reduces the risk a lot. A normal spanner almost completely wrapped in self-amalgamating tape is safe. Only metal visible is on the jaws at one end. Try that if you feel uncomfortable. It should feel safe with isolators off, battery disconnected, loose wire insulated and mains unplugged. Remember to note where each wire goes and wrap them with insulation after disconnecting. Coloured tape or different number of cable ties will identify each wire. Just take a picture before disconnecting the marked wires. You can always test with a multi-meter as well. I imagine that would increase your comfort level dramatically. I must admit that I always pull the large ceramic fuse on the bow thruster as well as turning off the isolators when working on it. I do this at the end of each season and apply silicone to the shaft seals before re-fitting in spring. Otherwise I'd have an uneasy feeling my hand was going to be minced when removing the propellers.
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Post by earnric on Aug 21, 2021 13:41:14 GMT
You can always test with a multi-meter as well. I imagine that would increase your comfort level dramatically. Yea, I plan on ensuring the breakers are off AND I check with a multi-meter. I guess there are 3 primary connections to the control box: wired like this: Hopefully this weekend! Rick
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Post by earnric on Aug 22, 2021 13:35:43 GMT
Close-up of the point where the motor oil leaked out of the winch. Now I just need to get to the 2 bolts holding it onto the winch so I can remove it.
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Post by earnric on Sept 2, 2021 20:02:21 GMT
So after turning off my electric winches at the breaker panel, each has a "pin" sticking up making it almost impossible to use the winch manually. Does anything know why this is? It doesnt look like much here, but it is long enough to push the handle out unless you hold it down. Rick
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Post by NZL50505 on Sept 2, 2021 20:35:36 GMT
The pin is meant to disengage the motor drive from the handle drive. Meaning that if you press the power button whilst you have a handle in the winch it won’t spin the handle and potentially hit / break your arm!
So yes the pin is spring mounted and is supposed to push down when you drop a handle in and pop back up when you take it out.
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