Known issues going into survey

[mesteve]

We go into survey on the 6th and I was looking to get some ideas of known issues.  We are looking at a 2004 owners version..

I am aware of the soggy compression post base, and the subsequent water leaks and sinking/cracked deck.  But what other things do I need to make sure I point the surveyor at?

Thanks

[Charlie-Bravo]

A few common items will be known ....... but which boat do you hope to be buying? ... mentioning the model may provoke a response from owners.

Your surveyor will have a reasonable list of things usually looked at, many surveyors don't do engines apart from a casual look so employ an engineer to have an oil sample examined, it won't guarantee a wonderful engine but can highlight a neglected one.
Also 99% of surveyors don't go up the rigging, just view what can be seen from the deck, employ a rigger to pop up to the top of the mast and provide a rigging survey, it also helps a bit when getting insurance if the rig is around the 10 year mark

CB

[Tafika II]

As on most Jeanneau's, the thru-hull fitting and shut-off seacocks are not very good quality from the factory. While you did not list what boat you are having surveyed, this is a common problem. Good luck!

[rxc]

I am going to assume that you are talking about a 43DS, because you have posted a question about a 43DS elsewhere.

Make sure that the thru-hulls for the holding tanks are not seized or too difficult to turn. In fact, as someone else mentioned, check all the thruhulls to see that they are in good shape and move freely. Make sure the electric heads work.

Check that the shower drain pumps work and will actually remove water. Check the condition of the strainers.

Check the condition of the steering cables and the quadrant and the quadrant clamp. If you have a Raymarine autopilot, make sure that it is programmed to limit the degree of swing of the rudder and does not drive the rudder into the stops. This requires a deep dive into the installation manual.

Fresh water system - the expansion tank eventually rusts and must be replaced, but it is easier to install a new one elsewhere than to remove the old one. Let the pump run a good while to ensure that it is in good shape. The faucets in the galley and the heads are probably getting old enough to fail, so check them carefully.

The water heater will eventually leak and fail. Look for leaks

Some have reported that the top of the fridge has sunk.

Look at the engine mount under the alternator for signs of rust - this can be caused by a loose alternator fixing bolt on the engine.

Some owners have had rudder failures. Check for water in the rudder and look carefully at the rudderpost where it meets the blade for cracking. Also check for play in the bearings.

It should also probably have had one rigging replacement. A rigging inspection would be prudent. If it has the original jib furler, make sure it still turns freely. Same with in-mast furling.

I haven't heard of anyone losing a keel, but there is at least one boat that replaced their keel bolts.

They are generally good boats, but at this age the systems are starting to fail. It is just age, like people, and you should plan to spend money to repair/replace stuff like pumps and valves. Electronics are probably quite "mature", too.



Oh, and check the condition of the batteries. Some owners are more fastidious about this than others. Mine were almost dry when we bought the boat, and that was the first thing we replaced.

[mesteve]

Jun 28, 2021 18:10:01 GMT rxc said:

I am going to assume that you are talking about a 43DS, because you have posted a question about a 43DS elsewhere.

Make sure that the thru-hulls for the holding tanks are not seized or too difficult to turn. In fact, as someone else mentioned, check all the thruhulls to see that they are in good shape and move freely. Make sure the electric heads work.

Check that the shower drain pumps work and will actually remove water. Check the condition of the strainers.

Check the condition of the steering cables and the quadrant and the quadrant clamp. If you have a Raymarine autopilot, make sure that it is programmed to limit the degree of swing of the rudder and does not drive the rudder into the stops. This requires a deep dive into the installation manual.

Fresh water system - the expansion tank eventually rusts and must be replaced, but it is easier to install a new one elsewhere than to remove the old one. Let the pump run a good while to ensure that it is in good shape. The faucets in the galley and the heads are probably getting old enough to fail, so check them carefully.

The water heater will eventually leak and fail. Look for leaks

Some have reported that the top of the fridge has sunk.

Look at the engine mount under the alternator for signs of rust - this can be caused by a loose alternator fixing bolt on the engine.

Some owners have had rudder failures. Check for water in the rudder and look carefully at the rudderpost where it meets the blade for cracking. Also check for play in the bearings.

It should also probably have had one rigging replacement. A rigging inspection would be prudent. If it has the original jib furler, make sure it still turns freely. Same with in-mast furling.

I haven't heard of anyone losing a keel, but there is at least one boat that replaced their keel bolts.

They are generally good boats, but at this age the systems are starting to fail. It is just age, like people, and you should plan to spend money to repair/replace stuff like pumps and valves. Electronics are probably quite "mature", too.

Oh, and check the condition of the batteries. Some owners are more fastidious about this than others. Mine were almost dry when we bought the boat, and that was the first thing we replaced.

Correct, it’s a 43DS in the 43 DS forum…. Glad to see many of these issues have been addressed already, but the others will definitely be brought to the surveyor’s attention.



Thanks

[Charlie-Bravo]

Whoops, I didn't spot the DS forum tag.
CB

[rxc]

I join Charlie-Bravo in the "whoops, sorry". I read the "new and updated posts" list, and did not notice that your question was posted in the 43DS section.

One last comment - open and close the door between the main cabin and the fwd cabin and check that it does not bind. Binding of this door is a sign that the boat has or will have the mast compression issue, and (to me) indicates that you may have some windows that may not be sealed any more.

[alenka]

Hi,

In addition to those already mentioned.

(1) Rudder and rudder bearings. Cracks can appear at the top of the 43DS rudder and Jeanneau rudder bearings have been a source of problem on some models.

If you were buying in Greece then the rudder tip too. Most 43DS's are 2m draft. The rudder is 1.8m draft.  Many Greek harbours are shallow with rubble along the quaysides. Many times I have seen boats berthed stern to with their rudder in contact with the bottom.

(2) The chain plates hidden behind the cupboards around the forward bulkhead

(3) In-Mast furling if it is fitted.  Most problems are with the run of sheets and lines which cause a lot of friction. You should be able to pull the sail out of the mast by hand quite easily.  Be prepared to swap all the associated blocks and pulleys. Very few boom travellers work well on the 43DS.

(4) Drainage from the shower trays. If the pipes have become detached they are almost impossible to reattach. People take the easy option and allow the showers to drain into the bilge if this happens. Maybe not good practise.

(5) Gell coat stress cracks are a problem on most glass fibre boats.  On the 43DS they tend to appear around the toe rail or in the cockpit and on cockpit lockers.

(6) Your intended boat is of the age where headlining tends to come detached.  A quick fix with any sort of glue rarely lasts long. The panels need to be taken down, the velcro removed and the same type of industrial velcro refitted.

Also check for leaks in the aft cabin in the centre of the roof lining to make sure the steering pedestal sealant is doing its job.

(7) leaks from the large salon windows can indicate a few different problems.

(8) The fridge compressor is located under the cocker and not all were ventilated properly which will cause the fridge to run inefficiently.  

likewise if the shore charger is located under the aft cabin seat (port) check it is sufficiently ventilated, otherwise the fan will run for hours cooling nothing. 

Good luck

[alenka]

One last item.

Navigation and chart plotters.

Jeanneau tended to fit Raymarine.  if they are the original fit then they will likely be the C variant.  These last for ever but be aware you cannot easily mix these analogue devices with modern digital devices.  Adding AIS for instance.  Even updating maps is tricky.  Most people tend to change everything over, including the radar head.

I think the E variant was the first digital setup fitted to 43DS but probably from 2005 onwards.

[alenka]

Sorry,  not to swamp you with info but a few other things have just come to mind.

Engine.  If you have the 75HP Yanmar then check the turbo to make sure it is not seized.  Ours is 2004 vintage and this winter was returned to Yanmar because a little wobble was starting to develop.  Only Yanmar can fix these.

I also had the exhaust elbow changed as part of preventative maintenance.  I have yet to see the old one and determine the state of the insides but will publish pics when I can.  I think most would agree a new elbow is not a bad idea at this age.

[rxc]

Regarding the Raymarine instruments, mine (2003) came with the RL70CRC, which I really liked for the user interface, but in Europe it would cost a fortune to populate your chart library. So I bought a C80, which works pretty well with the radar, and also gives me AIS capability with the addition of a Raymarine AIS box. And I only had to buy one chart chip for all of the western EU.

But at this age, you would probably not want to just replace a RL70CRC with a C80 - better to get one of the new ones, which will come with a better radar. Instruments like wind and speed and depth can stay, if you stay with Raymarine.

[alenka]

Thanks for the clarification RXC.

There are so many different models of chart plotter it is hard to keep up.  I wasn't even aware of the C80 range.

As you say many 43DS's came with the RL80C.  The C signifying that it is a colour display.  particularly useful for radar imaging.
It is a very good piece of kit for it's time and still is if you can live with the limitations which I will list for potential buyers..  

Charts are expensive.  It takes the C-Maps NT and NT+ memory cards but not the C-Maps Max cards. It will not display Navionics.  C-Map charts are nothing like as sophisticated as Navionics.  Change the scale on C-Maps and you might find some areas are greyed out because the card does not contain the resolution for that area.  The chart for one marina I used to visit often had a 200m wide strip of grey just before the entrance. Thankfully there was no danger points in the missing chart area.

The auto pilot will not sequence waypoints and turn automatically onto the new track. You have to confirm the change of track as you approach the waypoint, which some may say is not a bad thing.

I have a 80C at the chart table and a 70C at the helm. The 70C will display the charts inserted into the 80C but, even after 8 years of using it I have still never managed to display a route created on the 80C on the 70C. If someone knows if there is a correct sequence of buttons to press please let me know.

I was told that I could not display AIS on the system and that I could not mix digital with analogue.  I gather there are adapters that will convert the Raymarine SeaTalk network to NMEA 2000 but I was always lead to believe that not all the SeaTalk information would be passed on - it would not handle radar and autopilot.  

Information on how you coupled up the C80 with AIS and Radar to the network would be appreciated.  

Can you also control the autopilot from the C80?

[rxc]

Alenka,

I just checked my documentation, and I have the RL70CRC, not the RL80. It is still somewhere in my garage, together with all the wiring, and probably works. I also still have three Cmap chart chips, 2 for the east coast of the US and one for part of Western Europe. My wife periodically asks me when I am going to get rid of them - my response is that I have a long term project to install it inside the boat, so that I can see the radar while hunkered down inside the boat. I haven't told her that it probably won't work.

It was easy to just disconnect the RL70 and hook up the C80, and everything works fine. I can engage the autopilot from the C80, and tell it to go ahead and go to the next waypoint when the autopilot says that it is time to move to the next waypoint. I don't remember whether I can change the autopilot from following a course, to going to a waypoint, or to sailing by the wind. I think that has to be selected on the autopilot. It meets all my needs, in that regard.

I also have a Raymarine AIS650, which feeds into the C80 thru the hi-speed NMEA port. It sits at the bottom of the port side locker aft of the holding tank, together with the course computer for the autopilot. The AIS uses the power connection to the autopilot. You need a dedicated VHF antenna and a dedicated GPS supply for the AIS. I have them mounted on the top of my arch.






I think that I should be able to get a low-speed NMEA signal out of the AIS, and feed it to my VHF (ICOM) inside the boat, but I have never been able to make it work. About a year ago I found a blog posting that the VHF is very fussy about the NMEA ground, and this may be the issue. I have also tried to use the USB connection to get GPS info into a laptop in the cabin, but have never been able to make it work, either. I don't know if it is the AIS or the computer or the cable, which is very long, for a USB cable. I have done one upgrade of the AIS firmware

The French (we lived in France at the time) have these wonderful small junction boxes that I used to house all the various connections. They are small, (probably) drip-proof, and just right for this sort of project. However, note that you cannot screw the box to the inside of the hull where it sits in this photo. The hull is very thin, at this point, and it is below the waterline. (I know)

My C80 is mounted on a swing-out arm that is attached to the engine control pod. It was installed to hold the RL70, because there was not enough room in the main pod to fit the back of the RL70. You used to be able to buy a replacement top from Jeanneau with more space, but I have come to really like the swing-arm. The helms-person can share the chartplotter with someone sitting to the side, and you can also adjust it to deal with any glare issues. Much more comfortable to sit on the bench seat thru a long night watch and watch the radar paint all the thunderstorms dancing around you.

The biggest obstacle for this project is finding a spot to mount the VHF antenna and the GPS antenna. My arch had spare mounting points originally installed specifically for this project. I wish I had thought to install about 5 more mounts/holes/rings for mounting other stuff, and had asked for back-to-back mounts for the engine hoist arm.

Oh, and regarding the radar, my radar was modern enough to be able to be used with the C80.  Raymarine has a document somewhere that gives the serial numbers for radars that are compatible with both the RL70 and the C80.  This whole project started when I looked at all the C-map chips I would need to buy to cruise around the UK and Ireland and their cost.  I also thought about the AIS at the same moment, because we planned to do considerable cruising around La Manche (The English Channel), with LOTS of traffic.  I did a transit from Calais to Dover in peasoup fog, and the radar and AIS worked extremely well together.  I did not see any ships visually during the trip, but on the C80 I saw their radar returns and their AIS info, including their speeds.  At one point I was talking on the phone to my wife, who was on the ferry with 2 cats, and I could hear the engines of the ferry, but could not see it.  That one day trip made the whole effort worthwhile.

If you have any questions, just ask.

[rxc]

Two more things to check for the survey. SS holding tanks and the SS muffler seem to fail, so check both holding tanks and the muffler for leaks. You will have to remove the cover to see the aft holding tank.

[alenka]

Thanks for the info on your Nav setup.

Anyone thinking of buying a 43DS should not be put off by the original Raymarine kit.  I have been waiting for mine to start playing up for the last 8 years so I have an excuse to change but it still soldiers on. 


The 43DS represents excellent value for money and you will probably have to spend well over 200K to get a new boat of similar specs. I recently saw a well spec'd owners version at an asking price of 75k, tax paid - which leaves a little headroom to replace the electronics if so desired.

Ditto by the way to the SS holding tank corrosion.  One indication may be brown streaks on the hull underneath the unit.  It is nothing nasty just rust marks from the welds.

[mesteve]

Jun 29, 2021 0:21:10 GMT mesteve said:

Jun 28, 2021 18:10:01 GMT rxc said:

Fresh water system - the expansion tank eventually rusts and must be replaced

Where is the expansion tank located?

[alenka]

What is the fresh water expansion tank?

We have 3 freshwater tanks, plus the hot water tank, plus a small tank associated with pressurisation. I have never come across another on our boat.

I understand the new systems don't even have a pressure tank. 

[rxc]

You should have a pressure tank underneath the chart table, up against the hull. It is impossible to get out without dismantling a lot of the structure, and when mine leaked I ended up installing a replacement tank up in the fwd head. The water system doesn't really care where you install this tank, other than that it be on the discharge side of the pump. Closer to the pump might be better, but you don't want to put it downstream of the hot water heater or under the galley sink or under the sink in the aft head - that would be a bit far, and might cause some sort of weird hydraulic issues.

Size is also important. When the first pressure tank leaked, I was on a short schedule and temporarily installed a small pressure tank under the old one. It worked, but not very well. The pump cycled quite a bit. I bought a replacement at Home Depot - it looked like it was identical - and reused the small tank (expensive, from West Marine) as a pressure tank for my washdown system. The piping ran right thru that area, so it was relatively easy to do.

Sorry about my terminology. I am talking about the pressure tank.

[alenka]

No probs, You just got me wondering what i had missed.

When/If my goes I will replace with he pump that does not require an accumulator pressure tank.

[rxc]

There are pumps that do not need an accumulator (that is the correct word for it), but they will still start and stop every time you use a faucet in the boat, which some people do not like to hear at night. Personally, I LIKE to know when pumps and other mechanical equipment is operating, but others prefer silence. I think these pumps are also a bit more expensive, and have larger footprints.

[alenka]

I usually find it is guests that don't like the nighttime noises.  We had one who decided, without asking, to switch off the fridge. Of course he forgot to switch it back on the next morning and only when the contents got warm did we realise!


Steve,

I am guessing your survey  is now done and dusted?

Maybe you would care to let us know what your surveyor found so that we can add it to the list for future??

If you are now the proud owner of a 43DS then congratulations we're sure you will really enjoy.

[mesteve]

The major issues were the holding tanks; both leaking, and the engine’s 1000 hour service wasn’t done, including the mixing elbow. The accumulator tank is rusting, so that needs attention but wasn’t a survey write up. The compression post base and deck joints were all perfect. The rudder was in great condition, both lateral movement and no cracks.

One thing we discussed during the survey was the chainplate mount to the hull. One of the nuts had been over tightened and slightly crushed the glass underneath since there is only a small washer under the nut.

[rxc]

Chainplate mount to the hull? Do you mean the large welded structure that sit on the deck, where the shrouds attach? One large one and one small one, fwd, on each side?

[mesteve]

No, behind the cabinetry inside where they connect to the hull member.

[andreshs1]

out of curiosity...did you get the boat?

we bought ours in 2017 and love the boat (although the surveyor missed the problem with the compression post....and we only realized when started seeing heaps of water coming in during the raining season 




cheers