SO439 - Drainage into bilge

[kian]

Hello, I'm having a bit of an issue with water draining into the bilge and triggering the automated pump every so often. My problem is I don't know where the water is coming from.

The bilge has a small depression with four hoses coming into it. Two of those appear to be for pumping out water, and two appear to be draining into it. Pictures attached, one with just what I believe are drainage hoses, the other with the pump hoses as well. You can also see the water sensor on the right (the black box with cables).

That little hole will fill with water and trigger the pump sometimes. It's been pretty cold and rainy these past few days and it's been doing it more often. I think part of it is condensation, but it couldn't account for the whole of it. I think it's the hoses because I don't see water coming in from elsewhere in the bilge. Any idea where those hoses are coming from?

[Don Reaves]

On my SO 35, there are hoses from the refrigerator and the drain line from the water heater. I think there are others, but I can't recall exactly what they might lead from. I would check the refrigerator to see if ice melt water is your problem. It would be the simplest to understand and to solve.

[alenka]

On our 43DS the combined tap/shower head in the forward loo works loose and water will drip down the pipe (unseen) under the unit and finds its way into the bilge.  Check the connections on all your taps where they are connected out sight.  

Don't think you will be running air con at the moment but that puts a lot of condensate into the bilge: And as Don says check the fridge drains. If the bungs are not in you will be losing all that cold air into the bilge anyway.

Try putting a piece of kitchen roll under the stern gland to see if that is dripping.

[so32foot]

In my SO32 there was a non return valve on the electrical bilge pump. After the first use of this bilgepump this valve didn't close anymore because of dirt. I tried several other non return valves without success, so finally I have a hand operated valve in between.

Besides that I had water in the bilge from the fridge (I closed down that drain) and the saftey valve on the boiler 9after replacing the saftey that was solved. And at last I had leakage at the throughhull of the propeller shaft (not the Volvo seal) because that was installed  in a wrong way and I had to reinstall it.

[sailingabe41ds]

Did you taste to see if it is salt vs fresh water? I am in the same boat with a newer 2015 DS that is driving me nuts.  At first I thought it was the exhaust hose...till I tasted the water.  When my rear tank ran out of fresh water....the drainage stopped.  I look at all the fittings,  no leaks.  Now I bought a camera to look inside the tank since removing the tank is a major job.

Best,

Abe

[Evening Star]

If the water draining is fresh, you may find that it is just condensation between the hull and grid pan.  I live aboard a 479 in a cold climate and get a steady flow of condensation during the Winter which drains to the bilge causing the bilge pump to run every few days. I have a drain from the hot water heater discharging to the sump, but the water is not coming from there.  

[whitebird3800]

    Our SO 35 has had same problem, finally traced to a dripping pressure release valve on the hot water heater.  Very hard to see if you do not remove the hose from the valve.  Replaced valve---all is well

[puravida35]

My SO439 has same 4 hoses. 2 are for bilge pump (1-manual, 1-electric). The other hoses are connected to refrigerator drain and water heater pressure relief valve.

My relief valve has never released any water into the bilge, but my refrigerator drain hose does (if I let it).

Occasionally, some condensation from the air-con units will overflow into bilge if the little orange pumps fail (mine have frequently).. this time of year, I doubt that the source of your bilge water.

After heavy rainfall or long lasting moderate rainfall, I get water in the bilge that traces to the cable conduit that passes through the mast-step. My guess is that water collects in the bottom of the mast if the small mast-step drain slots get plugged or overwhelmed. When that happens the water eventually reaches the top of the conduit and flows down into the compression post area. I have put ‘drip loops’ in the cables just below the conduit to keep the water from running to the cable connections (something not done by factory or commissioning agent).

I have thought about stuffing the conduit with some sort of filler material to stop the flow, but nothing permanent. It could be leaking around the collar of the conduit, so maybe better sealant is needed.

[dbostrom]

Feb 16, 2021 15:34:08 GMT sailingabe41ds said:

Did you taste to see if it is salt vs fresh water? I am in the same boat with a newer 2015 DS that is driving me nuts.  At first I thought it was the exhaust hose...till I tasted the water.  When my rear tank ran out of fresh water....the drainage stopped.  I look at all the fittings,  no leaks.  Now I bought a camera to look inside the tank since removing the tank is a major job.

Best,

Abe

We had fresh water mystery similar to yours-- turned out to be a fracture in the fill pipe just where it entered the tank (aft). Our was small, mostly only released standing water in the fill pipe.

Also there'll be siphon effects; perhaps there's a leaking joint or a fracture further down the outlet line from the tank? 

[kian]

Thanks for all the replies. I suspect it's mainly condensation, and the fridge drain (have a paper plug since I bought secondhand and don't have the actual plug). It's cold out these days, and it's pretty bad in some parts, like the forward cabin. Don't have heating or a dehumidifier, so every cold surface collects water.

[kian]

Ah, looks like I spoke too soon. Lifted up more floorboard following a trace of a trickle, and discovered 2 big problems and a possible source for the issue. Need to do some more searching.

So, the boat has a grid between the hull and the floorboards, and this grid creates a number of "bilge compartments", which have holes to connect them and drain towards the center of the boat, where the keel is.

The first big problem is that the two bilge compartments under the floorboard by the galley (starboard side, under the sink, fridge and galley) are connected to each other but not to anywhere else. So water accumulates in them, they fill up, and only spill over the top of the wall made by the grid, where it happened to have a small depression to allow some hoses to pass. I had noticed some humidity there, but since the sink was right on top I didn't think much of it. When I lifted the floorboard, the two compartments where completely filled with water. I'll upload pictures later (not of them filled, I drained them already). So that sucks.

The second big problem is that the bilge compartment in the center, in front of the companionway, has a hole that connects it to the next compartment, but the center of the compartment is slightly raised (meaning it's not bonded to the bottom of the hull), and the hole actually drains into the space between the bottom of the grid and the hull. So that space fills with water before the compartment will drain towards the next bilge. Will post pictures later.

So the boat has at least three spaces that are getting filled with water and not draining properly. Plus the bottom of the grid not being properly bonded, although I'm not sure if that isn't by design. The edges of the grid are bonded properly, and the raised part seems molded to have that shape.

Lastly, I still haven't figured out where all the water is coming from, but given the filled spaces, it might be (hopefully) condensation from the fridge, or a very small leak in either the water heater (hope not) or one of the pressured water pipes. I hear the compressor run by itself a few times per day even if no water was used. Will try to identify that over the weekend.

[puravida35]

Those same compartments (under galley floor) have been a mystery to me as well. They occasionally collect some water from unknown source. Like you, I suspect refrig condensation, but not certain. I’ve determined that it’s not coming from a deck level leak, stanchion leak, etc. On my boat these compartments have limber holes so the water drains into the labyrinth of hidden channels and chambers... then with enough healing and boat motion, it works it’s way to the bilge pump sump. I put rubber stoppers in those lumber holes as I would rather capture the water there before it drains into the great unknown. I check those compartments frequently for water, pump it out when found.

Sorry, no answer to issue.

[sailingabe41ds]

Feb 17, 2021 22:14:49 GMT dbostrom said:

Feb 16, 2021 15:34:08 GMT sailingabe41ds said:

Did you taste to see if it is salt vs fresh water? I am in the same boat with a newer 2015 DS that is driving me nuts.  At first I thought it was the exhaust hose...till I tasted the water.  When my rear tank ran out of fresh water....the drainage stopped.  I look at all the fittings,  no leaks.  Now I bought a camera to look inside the tank since removing the tank is a major job.

Best,

Abe

We had fresh water mystery similar to yours-- turned out to be a fracture in the fill pipe just where it entered the tank (aft). Our was small, mostly only released standing water in the fill pipe.

Also there'll be siphon effects; perhaps there's a leaking joint or a fracture further down the outlet line from the tank? 

Hi,,

Thanks I thought about the siphon effects too. Great thought. I emptied the tank completely ...no bilge water. Then I filled it half way and did not run the faucet ..thus no water in the pick up line on the way to the pump. Leak started again. I hope that test eliminated the possibility of the siphon effect from the outlet line.

I should get the camera in about a week.....I better find something (hopefully fixable) cause both my curiosity and OCD is killing me. I will post when I find the leak so it might help someone else.

Thanks.

Abe

[kian]

Well, I seem to have found one possible source of the leak. I noticed that when the system is pressurized, there seems to be a small leak in either the hot or cold water hoses connected to the galley sink. That drips right on top of the two water-filled compartments, and since those don't drain, that explains why it eventually filled up, even if the leak appears very minor.

It's not too clear in the picture, but the highlighted area had a small drip falling, not sure which of the two hoses caused it.

Next, I wanted some opinions regarding the central compartments.

The one further aft (to the bottom of the picture) has a smooth floor, the next one has a rougher surface. As can be seen, the smooth one is slightly raised, and if I step on the center it's clear there's an empty space beneath it. Towards the sides though it's solid. The rougher looking compartment is solid everywhere. The bit of tape on the smooth compartment is where it drains, and I placed it there to stop it from draining into the space beneath it, which was filled with water. I could pump some of it out by stepping on and off the middle, and water spurted out into the rough compartment through the drainage hole.

Any idea why the two compartments look so different? I'm guessing maybe they were both originally smooth, but maybe the previous owners decided to cut out the smooth upper surface to get at the hull directly? Here's a closeup of the wall of the grid:



It can be seen that the wall is smooth, and towards the bottom it suddenly becomes rough.

(click in the attachments below to see the full size images)

[sunrise4]

Kian,

On my SO 419 the two compartments look the same as yours.  I think it is because the compartment closer to the bilge drain had the bottom cut out at the factory and glassed into the stingers, probably for increased strength needed for the keel just below. 

Since you are in your cabinets searching I thought I'd share what I found just last week as I happened to pull some wires in that area.  The attached picture shows a 90 degree kink of the galley sink drain, looking from the through-hull shut-off valve towards the refrigerator compressor.  In your first picture of the galley sink hoses I see that the drain hose is coming out in the same place as on our boat.   I hope you don't find the same.

Cheers!

[puravida35]

On my SO439, the more forward compartment does not have a liner, the exposed surface is the inside of the hull. The aft compartment has a liner as does yours. I believe the forward compartment has the hull exposed so it can be used for thru-hulls. In that compartment I have one thru-hull for air conditioner seawater intake, another thru-hull for generator intake and mounting bolts for ground plate on hull exterior.

Incidentally, I installed a small rubber stopper in the limber hole you taped over. I installed a few other to kind of control bilge drainage. Of course I check them frequently for any signs of flooding. I also purchased a hand pump with small diameter lift hose so I could pump out those compartments and the limber holes.

[kian]

Well, I confirmed the leak was coming from the hot water pipe connected to the galley sink, and applied a fix.

In the picture in my previous post you can see that there's a zip tie holding the hoses and drainage together, and that the screw of  the clamp for the cold water is pressed against the hot water pipe. Combined this created a "crease" on the hot water pipe, and being close to the end of the hose thise made the seal not be completely watertight. Plus the end of the hose was a couple of mm from being snug on the fitting. So under pressure, it dripped.

I removed the zip tie, adjusted the clamps so the screws would not rest against anything, and fit the hot water hose properly. After a few hours testing with the pipe under pressure the leak was gone. The compartment under the galley is not collecting anymore water either (checked overnight). So this is one less mistery on the boat. Still not sure what to do about the compartment not draining, aside from checking regularly. I suppose I will have some water hidden inside the channels until the boat's motion causes it to leak out and then I can try to collect it.



Thanks everyone for your advice and support.

[bitsailor]

Feb 19, 2021 17:19:22 GMT sunrise4 said:

Kian,

On my SO 419 the two compartments look the same as yours.  I think it is because the compartment closer to the bilge drain had the bottom cut out at the factory and glassed into the stingers, probably for increased strength needed for the keel just below. 

Since you are in your cabinets searching I thought I'd share what I found just last week as I happened to pull some wires in that area.  The attached picture shows a 90 degree kink of the galley sink drain, looking from the through-hull shut-off valve towards the refrigerator compressor.  In your first picture of the galley sink hoses I see that the drain hose is coming out in the same place as on our boat.   I hope you don't find the same.

Cheers!

By pure coincidence I discovered this exact issue on our 419 a couple of days ago. I don't have a photo to hand, but the kink in the sink drain is identical to what you have.

I'm still debating what to do since I have not had any issues with the sink drain so far and it's awkward to access. Curious to know if you ended up leaving it or fixing it?

[sunrise4]

bitsailor,

Yes, I replaced the drain pipe with a new 1.5" ID hose, slightly smaller than the original (metric?) drain pipe, which made it difficult to get over the barbed end of the through-hull.  I also re-routed the drain (see picture) from the small rectangular cut-out higher up to the fridge compressor access panel below.  There is plenty of space below the ice box for a smooth routing to the through-hull, so I don't understand why the original drain was routed higher up where it needed to be jammed into the small gap between the ice box and the plywood panel behind it where it is almost certain to create a kinked hose in the 90 deg bend behind it.  My drain pipe did not leak there, so not sure how prone these hoses are to leaking even if kinked.

The access is difficult.  I was only able to get to it since I installed a water maker panel, etc. in the space of the original pump and valving panel by the through-hull and re-located all the parts on that pump and valving panel.  As an alternative, you may be able to reach the kinked 90 deg through the fridge compressor access panel and re-route it a bit to remove the kink.  I did not try this, but maybe worth a try.

As an aside, I read in a different post (which I now can't find) that someone tried to drain their water maker into the galley sink and found that the water drain backed up and was not able to drain the volume of brine from the water maker.  I just started our new Cruise RO water maker for the first time yesterday and can say that with the replaced drain pipe the water drained just fine.  No backup.

Cheers!

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