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Post by dbostrom on Jan 18, 2021 7:37:30 GMT
The shockingly scanty yet amazingly noisy little box-ticker blower (fan, actually, sadly) on our SO39ip was one of the first things I gave the boot when we took her over. An axial fan (OEM) is a misapplication when working against high static pressure such as with a long exhaust hose, for starters. That's partly why the little things supplied for box-ticking purposes are so noisy; the blades are in aerodynamic stall 100% of the time. A centrifugal "squirrel cage" is much better suited for operating against static pressure and is inherently more quiet. The choice of axial is tilted far too strongly to cost containment. Meanwhile, let alone acoustics, decent CFM actually delivered is important for long term alternator health, particularly when big depleted battery banks are a regular feature of life. Finally, longevity is a distinct plus. So, a centrifugal blower with ball bearings, high surplus capacity and then derated for extra long life is a productive alternative I combined a Delta T 500-304121 IP "LIL Champ" which ticks all the above better boxes with a PWM controller to replace the failed concept of the OEM blower. This unit delivers 350 CFM nominal, 200 CFM against extreme static pressure of 2". By comparison, the OEM box-ticker is rated at 130 CFM but in reality will deliver a fraction of that due to static pressure from the long and rough exhaust hose (with upward/downward sweep at transom and finally a hard right-angle as final performance-killing insult). The PWM controller is adjusted to run the Delta T at 2/3 nominal RPM, extending lifespan. This still moves a copious amount of air down the hose and out the back even with all the bendy bits. At 5 years and ~1,800 hours after installation, the blower is still perfectly healthy. Not least it's extremely quiet, so there is no fan howl added to the already loud-enough diesel. Previous blowers were lasting about 2 years while making a hell of a racket and not accomplishing much else. Blower spec sheet: deltatsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/4InchDCBlowerSpecSheet2017.pdfPWM controller is this one from Amazon, still available, does need to be put in a plastic box for reasonable splash protection and easy mounting: www.amazon.com/RioRand-7-80V-Motor-Controller-Switch/dp/B071NQ5G71/Photo (somewhat lousy) shows installation, upper left. Blower sits on a fabricated pedestal mounted to engine casing. The PWM controller is attached to the side of the blower scroll, with bleed port to push air through controller for cooling MOSFETs (which is also massively derated so this is probably overkill).  |
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Post by dbostrom on Jan 18, 2021 7:51:28 GMT
Should add: heat soak-back and diesel stink is a factor in aft cabins, particularly in summer. The year after adding this blower, I added a thermostat switch and manual control along with another PWM controller and relay, so that if the engine compartment temperature rises above 115 degrees F after shutdown, the blower will run at highly reduced speed until compartment temperature falls to 105 degrees F. In practice this feature runs rarely but when it does, it's on a day when more heat down below is definitely not desirable. Crew may manually select this to "on" for stink control. The blower at this low speed still effectively creates negative pressure in engine compartment (and entire void area for that matter), ending the stink problem for those bothered by it. This has proven quite popular. Power consumption in this mode is reasonably negligible unless crew use the feature a lot. About 2A. Added rubber isolation mounts for vibration control with this change, to avoid motor vibration coupling to woodwork and being annoying, when engine doesn't mask this. This style: www.jwwinco.com/en-us/products/3.4-Installing-Lifting-Damping-with-Leveling-Feet-Lifting-Gear-and-Rubber-Elements/Vibration-shock-absorption-mounts-rubber-bumpers/GN-351.1-Vibration-Isolation-Mounts-Cylindrical-Type-with-Steel-Components |
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Post by andreshs1 on Jan 20, 2021 16:33:13 GMT
hi there
very interesting
@malcolmp would it be possible to add this to the upgrades section?
Cheers
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Post by MalcolmP on Jan 20, 2021 19:50:44 GMT
hi there very interesting @malcolmp would it be possible to add this to the upgrades section? Cheers Yes indeed, quite a lot of excellent new Hints and Tips articles recently, bring them on 😃 |
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Post by zaphod on Jan 20, 2021 21:59:01 GMT
Funny I never really noticed the fan noise at all when we got the boat, but last summer I discovered that the fan had failed. I just ordered the same fan from Amazon and swapped them out, and the new fan is incredibly loud compared to the old one. I suspect the old one may have been failing, and wasn't getting up to full speed. I will have to check into that blower option.
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closequarters
Junior Member
Posts: 16 
Jeanneau Model: 2006 SO 42 DS
Yacht Name: Close Quarters
Home Port: Trident Yacht Club
Country: Canada
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Post by closequarters on Jan 21, 2021 13:58:25 GMT
Given the noise of the blower I considered moving it in-line under the aft bed. Thought this would reduce the noise in cockpit. Thoughts??
Thank you
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Post by sitara on Jan 21, 2021 21:06:41 GMT
Blowers are normally mounted high to prevent water damage if water gets into the tubing.
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Post by zaphod on Jan 21, 2021 21:36:01 GMT
The shockingly scanty yet amazingly noisy little box-ticker blower (fan, actually, sadly) on our SO39ip was one of the first things I gave the boot when we took her over. An axial fan (OEM) is a misapplication when working against high static pressure such as with a long exhaust hose, for starters. That's partly why the little things supplied for box-ticking purposes are so noisy; the blades are in aerodynamic stall 100% of the time. A centrifugal "squirrel cage" is much better suited for operating against static pressure and is inherently more quiet. The choice of axial is tilted far too strongly to cost containment. Meanwhile, let alone acoustics, decent CFM actually delivered is important for long term alternator health, particularly when big depleted battery banks are a regular feature of life. Finally, longevity is a distinct plus. So, a centrifugal blower with ball bearings, high surplus capacity and then derated for extra long life is a productive alternative I combined a Delta T 500-304121 IP "LIL Champ" which ticks all the above better boxes with a PWM controller to replace the failed concept of the OEM blower. This unit delivers 350 CFM nominal, 200 CFM against extreme static pressure of 2". By comparison, the OEM box-ticker is rated at 130 CFM but in reality will deliver a fraction of that due to static pressure from the long and rough exhaust hose (with upward/downward sweep at transom and finally a hard right-angle as final performance-killing insult). The PWM controller is adjusted to run the Delta T at 2/3 nominal RPM, extending lifespan. This still moves a copious amount of air down the hose and out the back even with all the bendy bits. At 5 years and ~1,800 hours after installation, the blower is still perfectly healthy. Not least it's extremely quiet, so there is no fan howl added to the already loud-enough diesel. Previous blowers were lasting about 2 years while making a hell of a racket and not accomplishing much else. Blower spec sheet: deltatsystems.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/4InchDCBlowerSpecSheet2017.pdfPWM controller is this one from Amazon, still available, does need to be put in a plastic box for reasonable splash protection and easy mounting: www.amazon.com/RioRand-7-80V-Motor-Controller-Switch/dp/B071NQ5G71/Photo (somewhat lousy) shows installation, upper left. Blower sits on a fabricated pedestal mounted to engine casing. The PWM controller is attached to the side of the blower scroll, with bleed port to push air through controller for cooling MOSFETs (which is also massively derated so this is probably overkill). I looked up that blower...all the prices I see are ridiculous! USD$300-400 is outrageous for a small blower like that! I like the idea, but for the money I will live with the noisy tube axial fan, at least for now. It may not be the most efficient application, but it seems to be moving quite a bit of air. Maybe I will take my anemometer down and test it just out of curiosity. |
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Post by dbostrom on Jan 22, 2021 0:39:16 GMT
Blower was US$ 200 where purchased. An anemometer may show an impressive wind speed, but actually it's volume moved per unit of time that needs to be measured. Some extra calculation will be needed, by the anemometer approach. Instead, use a manometer, pressure drop, and less math. Excellent tutorial: www.tsi.com/getmedia/668b4c26-9783-4bc8-9dd3-c921b557bf71/how_to_determine_air_flow?ext=.pdfMeanwhile, "never repair" is not quite priceless, but almost. Life is too short to spend on repetitious repairs. And other factors. $800 alternator, used hard on a daily basis, week in and week out. Cooler means more longevity, lower long term cost, let alone the hassles surrounding a failed alternator. Is there a spare on board? Yes. Do the people running the boat know how to install it? Probably not. Does it cost $1,000 to dispatch a mechanic to an obscure location to turn a few bolts? Yes, on a good day. Or get a better blower? For our boat, successful operation is all about good statistics, what some people would call good luck. The most reliable and best luck is made, not found. It is a fact that my approach is warped because I'm running a fun factory, and fun factory efficiency is key to everybody having a good time and not going broke while so doing. $200 or $400 for a blower is "de minimus" in the grand scheme of things and the cash flow through this vessel, while 5-10 times as much lost because the boat isn't working is much more significant. By way of context, this boat frequently travels very far up the Canadian coast (although not right now). She needs to be as nearly autonomous as possible in terms of reliability, because a serious fault at "the end of the line" means catastrophic hassle and expense. So, I look for every opportunity to manufacture better luck. The transmission for instance is an admirably engineered little object in design and low weight. But it's not sufficiently reliable, because "overengineered" was not a design objective, so the boat carries a spare (not a large weight penalty). That way, sourcing and shipping (by bespoke seaplane and fortunate weather for VFR flying) a transmission does not become included in the range of activities included in dealing with a failure in an awkward location that will happen. A mechanic can show up with three wrenches and sort it, or (given the simplicity of the repair, arguably same effort/skill as swapping the alternator) a slightly better than average crew could be walked through it. There are instructions aboard to that effect. Everybody ends up happier as a matter of statistics, because all possible good luck has been created and built in. In the photo above it can be seen that we changed the v-belt to the alternator to a serpentine belt, at a cost of $450. But wait-- v-belts are so inexpensive. No, they're not, not when they've become terminally glazed in awkward circumstances. Connected to a 120A alternator, the v-belt is technically within capacity but on a longer trip could become glazed even after starting relatively fresh, because charging house batteries happens on a near daily basis, and doing that is an unusually heavy duty cycle imposed on a marginally adequate belt. The coolant pump shares the same belt; the boat could be left powerless and with lethal set/drift while crew frantically changes "inexpensive" v-belt for the first time ever. Changing the belt constantly to guarantee no glaze is not actually the cheap way to go. Etc. There are so many "cheap" choices to make. Too much low expense and good luck is not being made in adequate quantity. The same rules more or less pertain to "regular" owners, to the extent they journey and where their journeys lead them. Wear and tear is less intense, of course. But as a matter of statistics, a round trip without any problems at all can be made more likely. And when/if things do break, a map can already have been made that includes "have part, can fix" as one fork in the road ahead, the other fork being "uh-oh, I've got nothing but duct tape." Consider me a lab rat for reliability discovery under unusually harsh and punitive conditions.  |
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Post by andreshs1 on Jan 22, 2021 2:35:07 GMT
Hello all there are always alternatives supply chain starts primarily in China, thus, I would check in AliExpress or Taobao for a cheaper blower found this one for 6 USD  item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a1z02.1.2016030118.d2016038.1gAKk2&id=609658264206&scm=1007.10157.81291.100200300000000&pvid=4b6f4b31-3893-4804-9625-b86c983c67f3I use Google translate, hence it might not be the BEST, yet, is seems capable of doing the job Please note that most of the mods I have installed on the boat over the past 3 years came from ideas in this forum, including the digital thermostat for the fridge, I paid about 6 USD for the device in Taobao, while it was around 40USD in Amazon Solar panels fitted 3 years ago, 2x 150wats panels, ordered from TaoBao at 75 USD for both, 3 years on and not an issue. I literally buy almost everything from it at a fraction of the fraction of the price in Amazon, LED lamps, bulbs, etc. I would recommend you guys checking it out in order to save cash for more boat parts I have 'hated' the sound of the blower since the day I got the boat, thus, I will be getting this one and giving it a go, Cheers Andres |
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Post by zaphod on Jan 22, 2021 4:07:59 GMT
Blower was US$ 200 where purchased. An anemometer may show an impressive wind speed, but actually it's volume moved per unit of time that needs to be measured. Some extra calculation will be needed, by the anemometer approach. Instead, use a manometer, pressure drop, and less math. Excellent tutorial: www.tsi.com/getmedia/668b4c26-9783-4bc8-9dd3-c921b557bf71/how_to_determine_air_flow?ext=.pdfMeanwhile, "never repair" is not quite priceless, but almost. Life is too short to spend on repetitious repairs. And other factors. $800 alternator, used hard on a daily basis, week in and week out. Cooler means more longevity, lower long term cost, let alone the hassles surrounding a failed alternator. Is there a spare on board? Yes. Do the people running the boat know how to install it? Probably not. Does it cost $1,000 to dispatch a mechanic to an obscure location to turn a few bolts? Yes, on a good day. Or get a better blower? For our boat, successful operation is all about good statistics, what some people would call good luck. The most reliable and best luck is made, not found. It is a fact that my approach is warped because I'm running a fun factory, and fun factory efficiency is key to everybody having a good time and not going broke while so doing. $200 or $400 for a blower is "de minimus" in the grand scheme of things and the cash flow through this vessel, while 5-10 times as much lost because the boat isn't working is much more significant. By way of context, this boat frequently travels very far up the Canadian coast (although not right now). She needs to be as nearly autonomous as possible in terms of reliability, because a serious fault at "the end of the line" means catastrophic hassle and expense. So, I look for every opportunity to manufacture better luck. The transmission for instance is an admirably engineered little object in design and low weight. But it's not sufficiently reliable, because "overengineered" was not a design objective, so the boat carries a spare (not a large weight penalty). That way, sourcing and shipping (by bespoke seaplane and fortunate weather for VFR flying) a transmission does not become included in the range of activities included in dealing with a failure in an awkward location that will happen. A mechanic can show up with three wrenches and sort it, or (given the simplicity of the repair, arguably same effort/skill as swapping the alternator) a slightly better than average crew could be walked through it. There are instructions aboard to that effect. Everybody ends up happier as a matter of statistics, because all possible good luck has been created and built in. In the photo above it can be seen that we changed the v-belt to the alternator to a serpentine belt, at a cost of $450. But wait-- v-belts are so inexpensive. No, they're not, not when they've become terminally glazed in awkward circumstances. Connected to a 120A alternator, the v-belt is technically within capacity but on a longer trip could become glazed even after starting relatively fresh, because charging house batteries happens on a near daily basis, and doing that is an unusually heavy duty cycle imposed on a marginally adequate belt. The coolant pump shares the same belt; the boat could be left powerless and with lethal set/drift while crew frantically changes "inexpensive" v-belt for the first time ever. Changing the belt constantly to guarantee no glaze is not actually the cheap way to go. Etc. There are so many "cheap" choices to make. Too much low expense and good luck is not being made in adequate quantity. The same rules more or less pertain to "regular" owners, to the extent they journey and where their journeys lead them. Wear and tear is less intense, of course. But as a matter of statistics, a round trip without any problems at all can be made more likely. And when/if things do break, a map can already have been made that includes "have part, can fix" as one fork in the road ahead, the other fork being "uh-oh, I've got nothing but duct tape." Consider me a lab rat for reliability discovery under unusually harsh and punitive conditions. My anemometer will calculate cfm, you just have to enter duct size and shape. No need to get carried away with manometers and math! I can Certainly see the benefit of improving the airflow, particularly with the high capacity alternator you have added. (Something else on my future wish list!) Your charter customers are very fortunate to be getting such a well cared for boat! You keep a spare transmission on the boat? That seems a bit extreme! Do they really fail that often? I would expect a properly maintained tranny to last many thousands of hours! |
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Post by alex1949 on Jan 22, 2021 6:44:12 GMT
From Israel. a warm country (2005 SO 40 DS). Why struggle with another system with a minor benefit. A diesel engine need to work warm
for a better operation, we rarely achieve good operation heat , we do not need those giant blowers to cool down engine department. HOTER air supply for the engine is better.
Manual operated blower is enough for normal engine operation and just serve for some more comfort.
Do not waste your time and $ on those systems.
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Post by dbostrom on Jan 22, 2021 8:02:34 GMT
Zaphod, sadly the empirical data on the transmission is "has failed 3 times in 10 years and ~3,800 hours." With the operational requirements of the boat,and the cost of not being prepared for a quick repair wherever it may be needed, the numbers solidly indicate "spare transmission on board.'
Mind you, I've been inside and repaired one of these, and I really admire the design. It's a marvel. But the cone clutch is prone to glazing, always manifesting as loss of forward gear.. It's a little weakness that is exposed by our boat's duty style. It is possible to force the transmission to work in such circumstances by manually intervening on the shift lever at the transmission, sometimes, but that is quite dangerous and simply not feasible as a remedy suitable for general application.
Happily the spare transmission weighs only 33 pounds and is quite compact. It is stowed fixed to a frame via a couple of bolts through the bell, in the void beneath the propane locker which is an excellent space for things that are not absurdly heavy and are rarely needed.
Alex1949, apparently you did not remark the matter of alternator cooling. Cooling air supply has essentially nothing to do with the engine itself (although, severely hot induction air will have a deleterious effect on engine performance). An alternator putting out 1.2kW needs to dissipate around 500-600W of waste heat caused by eddy currents and other internal inefficiencies. It does this by air cooling, using its own little shaft blower to force air through the frame at a fairly terrific rate. Insufficiently cool air entering the alternator in such circumstances has a measurable impact on alternator lifespan, even for alternators with thermal management. Bearings wear out faster due to accelerated lubricant degradation, and diode lifespan becomes significantly worse as a statistical matter.
Inadequate alternator cooling can become quite dramatic. Another boat in the SJS fleet had engine compartment temperature hitting 160 degrees F because the blower was really scanty. She was equipped with an upgraded 1.5kW alternator with the thermal management for the external regulator not installed. The alternator stopped working with solder actually flowing out of the bottom. Photos show stalactites of frozen metal, not a good look.
That boat now has (you guessed it) an identical blower as what's employed on our boat. On a day with 90 degree F ambient temperature, engine compartment temperature does not rise above 115 F, and alternator frame temperature does not go above 170 F, comfortably below Balmar's recommended maximum operating temperature. That will translate into money and downtime saved.
Without the upgraded blower and if thermal management were present the alternator frame temperature would rise to maximum and stay there, with the regulator folding back the alternator output to protect against damage, thereby wasting the large capacity purchased so dearly. Without thermal management via the regulator, the alternator will continue to heat further and then fail dramatically (as it did before), as an inexorable outcome of excessive engine compartment temperature.
None of this is speculation. It's based on observations of what has actually happened in real world behavior, as we'd expect, and nicely tracks manufacturer specifications.
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