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Post by rmathews on Oct 14, 2020 17:05:02 GMT
Hi, does anyone know if its possible to get advice on a comprehensive electrical power upgrade. I want to change my domestic bank to Lithium (probably retaining existing lead acid for for starter and AGM for bow thruster), and whilst I am happy to do the installation work myself I would like sound technical advice on such matters as an appropriate alternator upgrade, installing an inverter, should I change the existing mains powered charger (Sterling Power Pro Charge 12V 40A), and if I should change the MOSFET charge divider (CRISTEC RCE 100A-1E-3S RCE / 100-1E-3IG).
Any advice gratefully received. Our boat is a 2012 Jeanneau 42DS currently in Arzal, France. I have all the wiring diagrams etc.
and i have scanned all the threads regarding Lithium here, especially those from Vasko, but whilst I have reasonable DIY skills I am not an electrical engineer.
Thank you, and apologies for raising the topic YET again, Robert.
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Post by NZL50505 on Oct 14, 2020 20:20:10 GMT
I’m also not an electrical engineer but I’ve learned a lot from paying for a lot of professional advice and work on my boats over the years, sone of it done well and some badly.
You are right to seek expert opinion and my experience is to ideally get sone kind of reference - just because someone turns up in a van with “marine electrics” in its title doesn’t mean they know all the ins & outs!
More specifically, if you are mixing battery types then yes you can do that but you must ensure the charging systems you use are smart enough to allow differential charging profiles for these different battery types.
And even more specifically, it is not enough to simply switch the profile of, for example, your smart alternator regulator or shore power charger to “AGM” simply because they are attached to an AGM battery. You MUST read the exact product spec for the actual batteries you have bought and confirm the precise charging profile requirements for bulk, absorption and float charging - and then you must check the actual output of each charging system to ensure it matches that and if not you must either adjust it - or if it’s an older unit that can’t be adjusted you probably need to replace it with a smarter programmable unit with multiple outlets.
Even 0.3v difference between required and actual charging voltage can be enough to kill an entire bank of new AGM house batteries in just a few months. Don’t ask me how I know this. So if for example your new batts require (as mine did):
Bulk: 14.7v
Absorption: 14.7v
Float: 13.7v
and if you alternator or shore power units are only supplying 14.4 - that could kill your batts in less than a year.
So yes make sure you find someone who understands all this and more importantly can help you confirm your setup achieves this!
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briar
Junior Member
Posts: 13 
Jeanneau Model: SO 42i performance
Home Port: Pittwater
Country: Australia
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Post by briar on Oct 14, 2020 21:07:03 GMT
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Post by jy51 on Oct 15, 2020 10:25:01 GMT
Hi, does anyone know if its possible to get advice on a comprehensive electrical power upgrade. I want to change my domestic bank to Lithium (probably retaining existing lead acid for for starter and AGM for bow thruster), and whilst I am happy to do the installation work myself I would like sound technical advice on such matters as an appropriate alternator upgrade, installing an inverter, should I change the existing mains powered charger (Sterling Power Pro Charge 12V 40A), and if I should change the MOSFET charge divider (CRISTEC RCE 100A-1E-3S RCE / 100-1E-3IG). Any advice gratefully received. Our boat is a 2012 Jeanneau 42DS currently in Arzal, France. I have all the wiring diagrams etc. and i have scanned all the threads regarding Lithium here, especially those from Vasko, but whilst I have reasonable DIY skills I am not an electrical engineer. Thank you, and apologies for raising the topic YET again, Robert. My 51 was commission with the Lithium domestic battery upgrade fitted by the factory. The starter, generator and bow thruster batteries are all normally fitted sealed maintenance free. The Lithium batteries are all fitted with their own management system and I assume require no special installation changes, other than to benefit from their fast charging by altering any AC battery charger to Lithium set up mode. The only issue I have which up until now has not been resolved or explained by Jeanneau is that the two battery chargers I have seem to be linked directly to the charge distribution box that decides which battery bank, either domestic ( Lithium) or starter engine/generator ( sealed ) has the most need and receives the most charge. Obviously with this set up it is not possible to set the charges in Lithium mode if they also feed the sealed batteries as well. It would require separated AC chargers for each battery bank and not the charge splitter as fitted. |
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Post by vasko on Oct 15, 2020 10:54:42 GMT
I’m with LiFePo4 , start, house, bow thruster
Extremely happy - but complicated topic as the easier way as I have done it there are so.e small things that need to be managed by you...
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Post by alenka on Oct 15, 2020 13:08:41 GMT
Vasko,
On busy sailing days when our electric winches are used extensively the house batteries take quite a pounding, particularly this year when they were left without any proper attention for 12 months.
Up until now we have always used cheapish sealed lead acid knowing that throwing them away every four years is not an eye watering experience. Our maintenance company however have suggested AGM as next years replacement and don't seem keen on the idea of going all the way to Lithium. I have yet to get a reasoning why!
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Post by vasko on Oct 15, 2020 13:51:29 GMT
The battery to go for in case lead type is the choice are EFB (the start-stop type for cars) a lot cheaper then good AGM or GEL and better suiting the purpose to support discharge to 50% and not kept fully charged always - e.g exactly the usage on a boat Regards LiFePo4 - I wrote in another thread my exact setup experience good and bad side... OK my full story : 0. pre-requisites: I experimented and work with Li batteries from about 6 years - including my own electric outboard with my own controlling, charging and my own remote control - I have two version with LiFePo4 battery pack 40ah and 80ah with 18650 cells. installing and experimenting on the boat itself : 1. 5 years ago I got completely fed up with the wet starting battery read tons of docs and got to the conclusion that 20ah LiFePo4 is alot better then 120ah wet/agm/gel - and got one from : shop.gwl.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-LiFePO4-12V-20Ah.html this exact model is design for starter battery and is 1100 CCA and can run your starter motor for about 10 minutes and is fine balanced cells without BMS - if your engine do not start for 10 minutes constant turning I guess it will never start  the starting is a lot easier as the battery is keeping 13.6-14v even at full turning.. 2. 4 years installed a drop in LiFePo4 battery 4 cells 40ah each no BMS for my bow thruster and it was working fine till this summer when I added to it a BMS ( 120a ) also - still with the same cells - no separate charging connected in parallel to my house battery bank with wet cells and no special separate charging or whatsoever - the cells are from this type : shop.gwl.eu/LiFePO4-cells-3-2-V/IFPP50-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-3-2V-50Ah.html BMS is from this type : www.aliexpress.com/item/32921412658.html3. for this season I got 2 x 120 ah LiFePo4 from a new seller in promotion from Aliexpress and asked him to upgrade the standard 120a BMS's to 150a ( it turned out I did not needed it but still feel safer with bigger BMS) - the total price with shipping to UK that I paid was £650 - I test then thoroughly with fully discharging and charging and I was able to get exactly 120ah from them ( actually about 30% more then a wet 12v battery compared in watts as the LiFePo4 stay around 12.6 - 13.4 all the time). the batteries are this : www.aliexpress.com/item/4000351519319.html( there was some worries about when they will be delivered as the seller put a wrong tracking number, next the tracking number showed only Germany etc. but it turned out all my worries was not needed and I got the batteries well) ONE THING TO MENTION : I was really worried about the quality and build of the batteries and I dismounted completely the two of them - had doubts about the cables, bms etc. because of all the people mentioning false materials from china - BUT AGAIN all was good and well designed and my worries were completely baseless. Tested the batteries on my car to start it 10-20 times and one of the batteries showed some issues from time to time - digging a big deeper it turned out that one of the planks on the cells was not well welded and when pushed it detached itself - found a spot welder from a friend and spot welded it again and that was all. ( to get the price low the provider has spot welded the cells instead with bolts and nuts) also the because I was worried from all the rumors about China quality I installed thermometer on every battery - turned out again completely baseless worried never seen them more then 32 degrees no matter how much power I draw - e.g. aircon 80amps for 1 hour. battery got shipped from UK to Bulgaria and from Bulgaria to my boat in Greece. 4. my setup is : - one starter battery 1x 20ah and one 1x 120ah battery in the port locker , 1 x 120ah and 1x40 ah under then bow bed for bow thruster, inverter ( washing machine, aircon, coffee machine and water heater ) - one EPVER 40AH MPPT with 530W solars which manual configuration as it is a old model and do not have Li profile by default ( charging only house) - standart 50a alternator ( charging start and house) - old non-smart mains charger switchable between 6a and 12a ( charging start and house) - 600W Airbreeze with MPPT ( charging only house) - 60a battery guard - one VARTA LFD75 for emergency connected in parallel - with switch that I switch one for one day every month just to keep it charged in case something fails with the system adn I need emergency battery. - Boat-Vitals remote monitoring system with alarms for over voltage etc. WHAT WORKS FINE AND WHAT NOT : everything except the windgen is fine - the only issue is with the windgen - as it start the atop break at 15sec over 16.15v but my battery guard max setting is 16v e.g. if the batteries are fully charged - the wingen will generate over 16v for short period and my battery guard will sound an alarm and stop the power - e.g. in my case I manage the wingen manually and switch it on only when I know that my batteries need charging for some period and do not leave it on while not at the boat... 4. What you need to take in account when switching to Lithium - the big difference is that Li batteries when charged teh BMS will completely disconnect them and some alternators do not liek running with zero load - e.g. you need to have some load - in my case I have engine compartment blower 4amps which runs constantly when engine is running - this si by design of the boat - if your boat charging is designed for wet/agm/gel then you will not be able to charge the Li batteries to 100% - most likely 60% that is generally all 5. What I regret - not trusting chinese providers and worry with no real need for it - not getting the batteries with BLE enabled BMS to be able to monitor them when I wanted without need to dive to teh batteries themself |
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Post by alenka on Oct 15, 2020 17:23:37 GMT
Thanks,
Very comprehensive description.
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Post by Trevor on Oct 16, 2020 8:13:57 GMT
Hello rmathews,
You are researching a subject that has plenty of opinions and plenty of solutions. If you are intending on including an inverter, potentially a charger, and a new battery bank, maybe you could consider a Victron EasySolar system.
I have no affiliation with Victron but really like they way they think.
The EasySolar provides a MPPT solar controller, an inverter, a charger, a monitoring system all in one package designed to beautifully interface to their Lithium batteries. Mastervolt can provide similar but I think at this stage Victron have the edge.
The BMS in each battery monitors conditions and ensures they don't come to premature death because of high/low temperature, high/low voltage or extreme current. Conditions can be monitored by bluetooth to a phone or by colour display panel or a virtual remote management system. Components, including the batteries are networked through a variety of networking protocols.
If you would like a system diagram that could provide a template to work from, the Victron website could provide an integrated solution you could follow.
Regards,
Trevor
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Post by jy51 on Oct 16, 2020 12:24:15 GMT
Vasko, I would not criticise anything you say regarding electronics as your knowledge and understanding is far greater than mine, but, you say it is not possible to charge Lithium to its maximum unless your boats system is set up to it. Yet I have a mixture of both Lithium and sealed batteries all operating through the same power distribution system. My Lithium BMS via Bluetooth show the batteries reaching their 100% charge whilst on shore power or generator using AC chargers.
Also my solar panel is capable of maintaining a charge of between 99 and 100% using a Victron solar charger/regulator, to be fair this has been set up for Lithium.
The only comment I would make is that the time to fully charge on Lithium seems to be extended while using a normal wet or AGM system.
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Post by Maravilla on Oct 16, 2020 13:14:18 GMT
I worked with OceanPlanet Energy for our upgrade (chose FireFly instead of lithium). They were very helpful and worked remotely with me. I was happy with the final system design and put that in this year.
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Post by vasko on Oct 16, 2020 13:59:55 GMT
Vasko, I would not criticise anything you say regarding electronics as your knowledge and understanding is far greater than mine, but, you say it is not possible to charge Lithium to its maximum unless your boats system is set up to it. Yet I have a mixture of both Lithium and sealed batteries all operating through the same power distribution system. My Lithium BMS via Bluetooth show the batteries reaching their 100% charge whilst on shore power or generator using AC chargers. Also my solar panel is capable of maintaining a charge of between 99 and 100% using a Victron solar charger/regulator, to be fair this has been set up for Lithium. The only comment I would make is that the time to fully charge on Lithium seems to be extended while using a normal wet or AGM system. it is very simple LiFePo4 battery fully charged voltage is 14.8v - most/all smart chargers for AGM/GEL/ACID battery type are boosting initially to 14.4 and next go to float ~13.6 e.g. you cannot charge a LiFePo4 in full with 13.6v but it will be very close. Lithium profile is actually a lot simpler then wet type battery it is just a constant high voltage and leave the BMS to do its job |
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Post by vasko on Oct 16, 2020 14:02:16 GMT
Hello rmathews, You are researching a subject that has plenty of opinions and plenty of solutions. If you are intending on including an inverter, potentially a charger, and a new battery bank, maybe you could consider a Victron EasySolar system. I have no affiliation with Victron but really like they way they think. The EasySolar provides a MPPT solar controller, an inverter, a charger, a monitoring system all in one package designed to beautifully interface to their Lithium batteries. Mastervolt can provide similar but I think at this stage Victron have the edge. The BMS in each battery monitors conditions and ensures they don't come to premature death because of high/low temperature, high/low voltage or extreme current. Conditions can be monitored by bluetooth to a phone or by colour display panel or a virtual remote management system. Components, including the batteries are networked through a variety of networking protocols. If you would like a system diagram that could provide a template to work from, the Victron website could provide an integrated solution you could follow. Regards, Trevor Victron is good stuff and quality is worth.. my personal view is that it is way way overpriced for people who can do the things themself ( may be 5-10 times) - but if I want something that do not require from me to think and worry - I will also go for Victron... - e.g. Victron is a safe bet like IBM ( no one has been fired for choosing IBM |
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Post by jy51 on Oct 16, 2020 14:35:14 GMT
Vasko, I would not criticise anything you say regarding electronics as your knowledge and understanding is far greater than mine, but, you say it is not possible to charge Lithium to its maximum unless your boats system is set up to it. Yet I have a mixture of both Lithium and sealed batteries all operating through the same power distribution system. My Lithium BMS via Bluetooth show the batteries reaching their 100% charge whilst on shore power or generator using AC chargers. Also my solar panel is capable of maintaining a charge of between 99 and 100% using a Victron solar charger/regulator, to be fair this has been set up for Lithium. The only comment I would make is that the time to fully charge on Lithium seems to be extended while using a normal wet or AGM system. it is very simple LiFePo4 battery fully charged voltage is 14.8v - most/all smart chargers for AGM/GEL/ACID battery type are boosting initially to 14.4 and next go to float ~13.6 e.g. you cannot charge a LiFePo4 in full with 13.6v but it will be very close. Lithium profile is actually a lot simpler then wet type battery it is just a constant high voltage and leave the BMS to do its job Vasko I don’t think your answer was very simple, yes my BMS external display and the Internal Bluetooth display and not forgetting the Jeanneau voltage meter show a charge voltage of well over 14 volts when it reaches a 100% charge, this then drops to over 13.5 volts on float, as you have said but this seems to contradict your original statement that only 60% charge can be achieved with a standard set up not tailored to Lithium when my 14 plus volts shows me a 100% charged battery. |
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Post by vasko on Oct 17, 2020 0:28:35 GMT
According to documentation for state of charge and voltage LiFePo4 battery : www.mobile-solarpower.com/uploads/1/2/9/6/12964626/published/msf4vpdl-1_14.jpge.g. 13.6 is still 100% but there is a but :)e.g. it is important what has happened before getting to 13.6. if the LiFePo4 has been charged with only 13.6 max (or just shot time of 14,4-14.8) then it is not fully charged but will still show 13.6. e.g the proper charging cycle is charge with 14.4-14.8 until the BMS cuts off then leave it cut off and the voltage will slowly drop to 13.6, but if you charge it only 13.6 it will be still stay 13.6 but will not be charged to 100%. Also the anti-sulfatation function in the smart chargers will seriously damage the LiFePo4 battery in a long run |
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Post by Trevor on Oct 23, 2020 12:34:18 GMT
This is an interesting conversation. Lithium is great but I agree with Vasko, if the alternator is not changed in some way, the Lithium house bank will not be maximally charged to 100% by the engine alternator.
Solar profiles can be Lithium these days and so can inverter chargers or just chargers. Most alternators are for lead acid type batteries and never reach the lithium voltage required for 100% charge. Ok, so what is the answer?
The lithium bank needs to have a BMS to tell charging equipment to back off if required. The alternator needs to be controlled by an external regulator that knows about lithium profile. The start battery may have a different state of charge to the house bank if it is lithium so needs to be treated separately. If it is a lead acid type of battery it will be overcharged if not treated separately to the house bank. The start battery for the engine needs to be charged by a DC-DC convertor that knows the profile of the start battery chemistry.
The system I mentioned in a previous post was Victron but Mastervolt do the same. They network their batteries and the batteries tell other equipment on the network about how they are feeling. Every cell is precious because every cell has cost the owner an eye-watering amount of hard earned cash so damaging one is a wallet catastrophe. Overcharging is a life shortening event so the batteries tell the charging equipment on the network to back off for a while. Under Voltage because of discharge is another battery life threatening event too so they can tell relays on the output to disconnect the load rather than shorten their own life. The cost of detecting the data and networking the information is trivial compared to the cost of the batteries so they are protected to provide maximum life and performance.
Having said all of that these modern lithium batteries are just simply awesome.
Trevor
The
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Post by alenka on Oct 25, 2020 19:49:37 GMT
Robert,
You may find this Youtube offering interesting.
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Post by rmathews on Oct 26, 2020 13:40:58 GMT
Thank you all for your comments. The fog is starting to lift!
Thanks for the recommended video, I know the Ryan & Sophie channel, and watched this one earlier today ($3,500), Ryan did three videos on lithium install all of which are good. The other channel which was useful is "Journeys with Jono", which although its on a narrow boat he is pretty clued up on Victron kit. He was so good Victron have employed him!
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Post by sailbleu on Nov 6, 2020 9:52:26 GMT
The battery to go for in case lead type is the choice are EFB (the start-stop type for cars) a lot cheaper then good AGM or GEL and better suiting the purpose to support discharge to 50% and not kept fully charged always - e.g exactly the usage on a boat Regards LiFePo4 - I wrote in another thread my exact setup experience good and bad side... OK my full story : 0. pre-requisites: I experimented and work with Li batteries from about 6 years - including my own electric outboard with my own controlling, charging and my own remote control - I have two version with LiFePo4 battery pack 40ah and 80ah with 18650 cells. installing and experimenting on the boat itself : 1. 5 years ago I got completely fed up with the wet starting battery read tons of docs and got to the conclusion that 20ah LiFePo4 is alot better then 120ah wet/agm/gel - and got one from : shop.gwl.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-LiFePO4-12V-20Ah.html this exact model is design for starter battery and is 1100 CCA and can run your starter motor for about 10 minutes and is fine balanced cells without BMS - if your engine do not start for 10 minutes constant turning I guess it will never start the starting is a lot easier as the battery is keeping 13.6-14v even at full turning.. 2. 4 years installed a drop in LiFePo4 battery 4 cells 40ah each no BMS for my bow thruster and it was working fine till this summer when I added to it a BMS ( 120a ) also - still with the same cells - no separate charging connected in parallel to my house battery bank with wet cells and no special separate charging or whatsoever - the cells are from this type : shop.gwl.eu/LiFePO4-cells-3-2-V/IFPP50-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-3-2V-50Ah.html BMS is from this type : www.aliexpress.com/item/32921412658.html3. for this season I got 2 x 120 ah LiFePo4 from a new seller in promotion from Aliexpress and asked him to upgrade the standard 120a BMS's to 150a ( it turned out I did not needed it but still feel safer with bigger BMS) - the total price with shipping to UK that I paid was £650 - I test then thoroughly with fully discharging and charging and I was able to get exactly 120ah from them ( actually about 30% more then a wet 12v battery compared in watts as the LiFePo4 stay around 12.6 - 13.4 all the time). the batteries are this : www.aliexpress.com/item/4000351519319.html( there was some worries about when they will be delivered as the seller put a wrong tracking number, next the tracking number showed only Germany etc. but it turned out all my worries was not needed and I got the batteries well) ONE THING TO MENTION : I was really worried about the quality and build of the batteries and I dismounted completely the two of them - had doubts about the cables, bms etc. because of all the people mentioning false materials from china - BUT AGAIN all was good and well designed and my worries were completely baseless. Tested the batteries on my car to start it 10-20 times and one of the batteries showed some issues from time to time - digging a big deeper it turned out that one of the planks on the cells was not well welded and when pushed it detached itself - found a spot welder from a friend and spot welded it again and that was all. ( to get the price low the provider has spot welded the cells instead with bolts and nuts) also the because I was worried from all the rumors about China quality I installed thermometer on every battery - turned out again completely baseless worried never seen them more then 32 degrees no matter how much power I draw - e.g. aircon 80amps for 1 hour. battery got shipped from UK to Bulgaria and from Bulgaria to my boat in Greece. 4. my setup is : - one starter battery 1x 20ah and one 1x 120ah battery in the port locker , 1 x 120ah and 1x40 ah under then bow bed for bow thruster, inverter ( washing machine, aircon, coffee machine and water heater ) - one EPVER 40AH MPPT with 530W solars which manual configuration as it is a old model and do not have Li profile by default ( charging only house) - standart 50a alternator ( charging start and house) - old non-smart mains charger switchable between 6a and 12a ( charging start and house) - 600W Airbreeze with MPPT ( charging only house) - 60a battery guard - one VARTA LFD75 for emergency connected in parallel - with switch that I switch one for one day every month just to keep it charged in case something fails with the system adn I need emergency battery. - Boat-Vitals remote monitoring system with alarms for over voltage etc. WHAT WORKS FINE AND WHAT NOT : everything except the windgen is fine - the only issue is with the windgen - as it start the atop break at 15sec over 16.15v but my battery guard max setting is 16v e.g. if the batteries are fully charged - the wingen will generate over 16v for short period and my battery guard will sound an alarm and stop the power - e.g. in my case I manage the wingen manually and switch it on only when I know that my batteries need charging for some period and do not leave it on while not at the boat... 4. What you need to take in account when switching to Lithium - the big difference is that Li batteries when charged teh BMS will completely disconnect them and some alternators do not liek running with zero load - e.g. you need to have some load - in my case I have engine compartment blower 4amps which runs constantly when engine is running - this si by design of the boat - if your boat charging is designed for wet/agm/gel then you will not be able to charge the Li batteries to 100% - most likely 60% that is generally all 5. What I regret - not trusting chinese providers and worry with no real need for it - not getting the batteries with BLE enabled BMS to be able to monitor them when I wanted without need to dive to teh batteries themself Vasco , I believe I’ve read that you had your bow thruster connected straight to the Lifepo4 set and thus bypassing the BMS . Is that correct ? I’m planning to do the same so I can downgrade the amps of the two BMS I need ( will be less expensive )as I’m about to have two sets of 12 volt 200 A in parallel . Of course hard fused , just in case . Do you agree with my plan of attack ? Will there be no conflict when the bow thruster is rigged that way ? Regards |
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Post by vasko on Nov 6, 2020 11:17:15 GMT
The battery to go for in case lead type is the choice are EFB (the start-stop type for cars) a lot cheaper then good AGM or GEL and better suiting the purpose to support discharge to 50% and not kept fully charged always - e.g exactly the usage on a boat Regards LiFePo4 - I wrote in another thread my exact setup experience good and bad side... OK my full story : 0. pre-requisites: I experimented and work with Li batteries from about 6 years - including my own electric outboard with my own controlling, charging and my own remote control - I have two version with LiFePo4 battery pack 40ah and 80ah with 18650 cells. installing and experimenting on the boat itself : 1. 5 years ago I got completely fed up with the wet starting battery read tons of docs and got to the conclusion that 20ah LiFePo4 is alot better then 120ah wet/agm/gel - and got one from : shop.gwl.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-LiFePO4-12V-20Ah.html this exact model is design for starter battery and is 1100 CCA and can run your starter motor for about 10 minutes and is fine balanced cells without BMS - if your engine do not start for 10 minutes constant turning I guess it will never start the starting is a lot easier as the battery is keeping 13.6-14v even at full turning.. 2. 4 years installed a drop in LiFePo4 battery 4 cells 40ah each no BMS for my bow thruster and it was working fine till this summer when I added to it a BMS ( 120a ) also - still with the same cells - no separate charging connected in parallel to my house battery bank with wet cells and no special separate charging or whatsoever - the cells are from this type : shop.gwl.eu/LiFePO4-cells-3-2-V/IFPP50-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-3-2V-50Ah.html BMS is from this type : www.aliexpress.com/item/32921412658.html3. for this season I got 2 x 120 ah LiFePo4 from a new seller in promotion from Aliexpress and asked him to upgrade the standard 120a BMS's to 150a ( it turned out I did not needed it but still feel safer with bigger BMS) - the total price with shipping to UK that I paid was £650 - I test then thoroughly with fully discharging and charging and I was able to get exactly 120ah from them ( actually about 30% more then a wet 12v battery compared in watts as the LiFePo4 stay around 12.6 - 13.4 all the time). the batteries are this : www.aliexpress.com/item/4000351519319.html( there was some worries about when they will be delivered as the seller put a wrong tracking number, next the tracking number showed only Germany etc. but it turned out all my worries was not needed and I got the batteries well) ONE THING TO MENTION : I was really worried about the quality and build of the batteries and I dismounted completely the two of them - had doubts about the cables, bms etc. because of all the people mentioning false materials from china - BUT AGAIN all was good and well designed and my worries were completely baseless. Tested the batteries on my car to start it 10-20 times and one of the batteries showed some issues from time to time - digging a big deeper it turned out that one of the planks on the cells was not well welded and when pushed it detached itself - found a spot welder from a friend and spot welded it again and that was all. ( to get the price low the provider has spot welded the cells instead with bolts and nuts) also the because I was worried from all the rumors about China quality I installed thermometer on every battery - turned out again completely baseless worried never seen them more then 32 degrees no matter how much power I draw - e.g. aircon 80amps for 1 hour. battery got shipped from UK to Bulgaria and from Bulgaria to my boat in Greece. 4. my setup is : - one starter battery 1x 20ah and one 1x 120ah battery in the port locker , 1 x 120ah and 1x40 ah under then bow bed for bow thruster, inverter ( washing machine, aircon, coffee machine and water heater ) - one EPVER 40AH MPPT with 530W solars which manual configuration as it is a old model and do not have Li profile by default ( charging only house) - standart 50a alternator ( charging start and house) - old non-smart mains charger switchable between 6a and 12a ( charging start and house) - 600W Airbreeze with MPPT ( charging only house) - 60a battery guard - one VARTA LFD75 for emergency connected in parallel - with switch that I switch one for one day every month just to keep it charged in case something fails with the system adn I need emergency battery. - Boat-Vitals remote monitoring system with alarms for over voltage etc. WHAT WORKS FINE AND WHAT NOT : everything except the windgen is fine - the only issue is with the windgen - as it start the atop break at 15sec over 16.15v but my battery guard max setting is 16v e.g. if the batteries are fully charged - the wingen will generate over 16v for short period and my battery guard will sound an alarm and stop the power - e.g. in my case I manage the wingen manually and switch it on only when I know that my batteries need charging for some period and do not leave it on while not at the boat... 4. What you need to take in account when switching to Lithium - the big difference is that Li batteries when charged teh BMS will completely disconnect them and some alternators do not liek running with zero load - e.g. you need to have some load - in my case I have engine compartment blower 4amps which runs constantly when engine is running - this si by design of the boat - if your boat charging is designed for wet/agm/gel then you will not be able to charge the Li batteries to 100% - most likely 60% that is generally all 5. What I regret - not trusting chinese providers and worry with no real need for it - not getting the batteries with BLE enabled BMS to be able to monitor them when I wanted without need to dive to teh batteries themself Vasco , I believe I’ve read that you had your bow thruster connected straight to the Lifepo4 set and thus bypassing the BMS . Is that correct ? I’m planning to do the same so I can downgrade the amps of the two BMS I need ( will be less expensive )as I’m about to have two sets of 12 volt 200 A in parallel . Of course hard fused , just in case . Do you agree with my plan of attack ? Will there be no conflict when the bow thruster is rigged that way ? Regards My BMS is 150A and the bow thruster fuse is 125A - e.g I use the BMS for everything - as it is easy no need for additional cables - but to answer your question YES you can connect the bow thruster and windlass, electric winches etc directly to the lifepo4 cells - this the standard way when you do not want to have s big BMS |
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Post by sailbleu on Nov 6, 2020 12:24:07 GMT
But hold on, just thought of something .
I need to put the two sets ( 4 x 3,2 V 200 A each ) in parallel to before the BMS to have 400A at my disposal on the bow thruster . All the other boat appliances will be connected after the BMS’ s , right .
This way the two strings will not be protected ( by a BMS) from each other .
A bad cell in one string could cause a hazardous situation is it not ?
Regards
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Post by vasko on Nov 6, 2020 19:38:01 GMT
But hold on, just thought of something . I need to put the two sets ( 4 x 3,2 V 200 A each ) in parallel to before the BMS to have 400A at my disposal on the bow thruster . All the other boat appliances will be connected after the BMS’ s , right . This way the two strings will not be protected ( by a BMS) from each other . A bad cell in one string could cause a hazardous situation is it not ? Regards Are you going to have one BMS or two BMS modules ? |
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Post by jy51 on Nov 7, 2020 10:35:32 GMT
Vasko, On busy sailing days when our electric winches are used extensively the house batteries take quite a pounding, particularly this year when they were left without any proper attention for 12 months. Up until now we have always used cheapish sealed lead acid knowing that throwing them away every four years is not an eye watering experience. Our maintenance company however have suggested AGM as next years replacement and don't seem keen on the idea of going all the way to Lithium. I have yet to get a reasoning why! alenka, I have just read your comment and would just like to add that the advantages of lithium batteries over lead acid are well documented, so it’s pointless to go over that one again, but like all these things, the only way to understand the advantages is to experience the difference. Just to put things into perspective, your mobile phone has a lithium battery and can be charged from totally flat to usable in just a few minutes, being human, we start to take these things for granted. I have had Lithium for two seasons now and would never go back to flooded, sealed or AGM. The only down side of Lithium is the cost, but the advantages are many. |
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Post by vasko on Nov 9, 2020 5:04:29 GMT
Vasko, On busy sailing days when our electric winches are used extensively the house batteries take quite a pounding, particularly this year when they were left without any proper attention for 12 months. Up until now we have always used cheapish sealed lead acid knowing that throwing them away every four years is not an eye watering experience. Our maintenance company however have suggested AGM as next years replacement and don't seem keen on the idea of going all the way to Lithium. I have yet to get a reasoning why! alenka, I have just read your comment and would just like to add that the advantages of lithium batteries over lead acid are well documented, so it’s pointless to go over that one again, but like all these things, the only way to understand the advantages is to experience the difference. Just to put things into perspective, your mobile phone has a lithium battery and can be charged from totally flat to usable in just a few minutes, being human, we start to take these things for granted. I have had Lithium for two seasons now and would never go back to flooded, sealed or AGM. The only down side of Lithium is the cost, but the advantages are many. Agree on 100% also the cost can be very manageable - the total cost if my 240ah bank (2 x 120ah) with 300amps BMS(2x150amps) is £650 - the only regret that I have is that I did not get Bluetooth enabled BMSs this the chart how my battery banks behave : www.boat-vitals.com/display.html?link=11-101-ec2c284ef0-Celcius-dd_MMM_HH.mm-GPS5 |
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Post by sailbleu on Nov 9, 2020 9:37:04 GMT
But hold on, just thought of something . I need to put the two sets ( 4 x 3,2 V 200 A each ) in parallel to before the BMS to have 400A at my disposal on the bow thruster . All the other boat appliances will be connected after the BMS’ s , right . This way the two strings will not be protected ( by a BMS) from each other . A bad cell in one string could cause a hazardous situation is it not ? Regards Are you going to have one BMS or two BMS modules ? Vasco , as stated earlier i will us 2 BMS . One for each string. But if I connect the two string parallel without a BMS in between them ( to get direct connection to the bow thruster) then the two strings are not protected from each other no ? Regards |
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