36i 140% Genoa

[relentless899]

I would like to put a 140% Genoa, or larger, on a Sun Odyssey 36i shoal draft for racing. My sail maker does not think it will fit because of the spreader width and the track length. I have noticed that the Performance 36i can come with a 140%. I know it has a different mast and possibly different spreaders. Can anyone tell me the largest head sail that will fit on the 36i and if any design issues were encountered?

[element]

We have a 39i Perfomance and max size of genua will be about 120%. Indeed because otherwise the back end of the sail (is that the leech in English?) will touch the speaders.
I don't know the exact details of a 36i Performance but I doubt ad 140% will be possible.

Maybe better to have a code zero (even bigger van a 140% genua) on a pole. But this will need to be sheeted outside of the rigging so will be less suitable fo up wind sailing. And I don't know how this will influence your handicap rating.

[relentless899]

It seems I was mistaken; this comes from an official Jeanneau spec sheet comparing the 36i to the Performance 36i.
The Performance model comes with a 135% and the regular 36i comes with a 130%.
I would still like any info on the largest head sail that can be fit on a regular 36i.

36i
Furling genoa 130% high-tenacity Dacron cloth, Sunbrella UV luff protection, Rutgerson stainless steel eyes 33m2

36i Performance
Performance furling genoa 135% tri-radial Prestige series with sandwich constructions of double taffeta layers and Mylar for form stability and Sunbrella® UV luff protection, Rutgerson® stainless steel eyes- 38m2

[zaphod]

Sept 20, 2020 12:44:20 GMT element said:

We have a 39i Perfomance and max size of genua will be about 120%. Indeed because otherwise the back end of the sail (is that the leech in English?) will touch the speaders.
I don't know the exact details of a 36i Performance but I doubt ad 140% will be possible.

Maybe better to have a code zero (even bigger van a 140% genua) on a pole. But this will need to be sheeted outside of the rigging so will be less suitable fo up wind sailing. And I don't know how this will influence your handicap rating.

The 36i shrouds don't come all the way outboard like they do on our 39i, so there is theoretically room to sheet between the lifelines and the shrouds.

Having said that, a sailmaker would know best what will fit. If he measures the boat and says it can't be done, I would tend to believe him.

[zaphod]

Sept 20, 2020 17:28:47 GMT relentless899 said:

It seems I was mistaken; this comes from an official Jeanneau spec sheet comparing the 36i to the Performance 36i.
The Performance model comes with a 135% and the regular 36i comes with a 130%.
I would still like any info on the largest head sail that can be fit on a regular 36i.

36i
Furling genoa 130% high-tenacity Dacron cloth, Sunbrella UV luff protection, Rutgerson stainless steel eyes 33m2

36i Performance
Performance furling genoa 135% tri-radial Prestige series with sandwich constructions of double taffeta layers and Mylar for form stability and Sunbrella® UV luff protection, Rutgerson® stainless steel eyes- 38m2

If a 135 fits on the performance, then it would fit on the standard 36i too. The rig geometry is almost identical, the main difference being mast height. The shrouds and chainplates and tracks should all be in the same place. 5% difference in overlap is not significant. The big difference is in the materials and cut of the performance sail vs the standard cruising sail.

[MartyB]

going with a string styl 130 will give you a bost in speed, pointing etc. But going with the largest SA head sail you can will be better in lighter airs. SO potentially think about dousing the furler, so you have a full hoist jib, that should gain you a few sq ft/meters of sail vs stock. ALong with potentially allowing a slightly long LP sail too! Yes this latter option if you sail where I do, will cost you in a faster rating. but should be worth it.

Marty

[johannes]

Would this be a light-weight genoa for light winds only, or a general purpose genoa that is intended to be used partially furled in stronger winds? If the latter, I would advice against it. A medium- or heavy cloth large genoa will not be a good light air sail, and it will not have a good shape for pointing performance in light to medium air. It will have a very narrow optimal window: reaching in light to medium air.

[svultreia]

I would err on the side of the sailmakers advice. There's no reason for them not to want to sell you larger sail other than wanting to make sure you like and enjoy the new sail.

Keep in mind large headsails are a pain to tack handle especially as the overlap grows. The catch on everything and often must be walked around in light winds. In addition, once beyond 5 to 8 knots of wind they tend to heel the boat more than necessary and most keep them up too long before going to a more appropriate sized sail.

Cruiser racers, especially shoal draft models which are by nature heavier, are going to be tough to be competitive in lighter air.

I would recommend opting for higher tech smaller sails which hold optimum shape through better range of wind, and allow you to more be more nimble with tacks so you can work shifts and hunt wind. Not only will this likely be more effective, it will also be more fun.

For the drifter days... Consider a Code Zero to keep you moving even if not right on the wind. This will be more effective than a 130/140, and will provide more flexibility for other points of sail.

[zaphod]

Sept 21, 2020 10:17:23 GMT johannes said:

Would this be a light-weight genoa for light winds only, or a general purpose genoa that is intended to be used partially furled in stronger winds? If the latter, I would advice against it. A medium- or heavy cloth large genoa will not be a good light air sail, and it will not have a good shape for pointing performance in light to medium air. It will have a very narrow optimal window: reaching in light to medium air.

The point of high tech sailcloths is more strength with less weight. A laminate sail will be able to handle the same amount of wind as a much heavier dacron sail and will hold it's shape better. A dacron sail will last longer, but the shape will deteriorate quickly.

A laminate sail can be built to be roller reefed, but I personally am not a big believer in roller reefing headsails. It is hard on the sail, and you get terrible shape. The headsail on the 36i is already quite small. Depowering should be done with the mainsail slab reefing. I have never roller reefed the jib on my 39i.

[johannes]

Cruising laminate sails can be significantly heavier than dacron sails, for the same strength, especially if you have dacron taffeta on both sides which you most likely will have on cruising sails. The purpose of cruising laminate is not more strength per weight, but much longer shape life. The Dimension Polyant laminate sails we bought last year to replace the original dacron sails are almost twice as heavy as the dacron sails.

[zaphod]

Sept 22, 2020 10:11:12 GMT johannes said:

Cruising laminate sails can be significantly heavier than dacron sails, for the same strength, especially if you have dacron taffeta on both sides which you most likely will have on cruising sails. The purpose of cruising laminate is not more strength per weight, but much longer shape life. The Dimension Polyant laminate sails we bought last year to replace the original dacron sails are almost twice as heavy as the dacron sails.

That's interesting. I just had quotes on a new headsail, and all the laminate options were spec'd with much lighter cloth than the dacron options for the same wind range.

If your laminate sail was truly twice as heavy as your old dacron then either the new sail was way over built, the old one was underbuilt, or both!

I just test fitted a used UK Tape Drive roller furling headsail with a foam luff and uv guard and it was far lighter than my original dacron.

[MartyB]

i have an Ullman 155 fiberpath with taffeta on both sides. If I had to do it again, I would do one side or no taffeta. It does not work as well in the lighter airs we have around here. I do have a 3oz nylon sail. works well in 0-6 knots upwind. 155 needs 9-10 knots to really come into play. I do feel with no taffeta, I would still be good to 20-22 knots in 80F+ temps, and 15-17 in 40-60 temps. I could get down to 5 knots in lighter air with no taffeta.
i do have a panel sewn 140 to replace my dacron of about the same size, It has no taffeta on it, and is quite light!
Some issues on my boat with jib sizing. Being as I have a mast head, I do have tracks behind the shrouds. Issue is the 110-130 range, the track is at the widest point of the boat, so pointing really sucks. The 155 and to a degree the 140, the tracks at the rear are bending inwards, so the sheeting angle is pretty tight, so pointing works well. I do have tracks on cabin top, inside of the shrouds, so with the 110, I have goo pointing with this sail with sheets running to these tracks. The outside track, works better for running and beam reaching with the 110. These inner tracks also work well with my storm jib when i am in winds above 40 knots or so, double reef main.
If one is going to race, better have a somewhat decent sail mix, for different winds, temps etc, Otherwise, two sails, ie a main a larger jib that you reef, you will not do as well. Yes laminate sails, do work better than dacron in a wider wind range than an equal dacron, generally speaking. do come at a 20-100% cost increase. Strings double in cost. A panel or crosscut laminate you can be in the 20-50% increase. These from my experience, net 30-50% more speed, vs string 100%. Altho really, look at it as a string might net you a knot increase vs dacron, the panel .3-.5 knots in speed gain. Either puts you at an advantage to a dacron setup boat. BUT, if that boat is sailed better, you make a major mistake, they will still beat you! But if both are sailed the same, the one with better boat prep, ie hull bottom, better less stretch sheets, halyards and sails, should win! So, do want to to be last, mid fleet, top of fleet?

Marty

[Chris Meyer]

Sept 21, 2020 14:32:51 GMT svultreia said:

I would err on the side of the sailmakers advice. There's no reason for them not to want to sell you larger sail other than wanting to make sure you like and enjoy the new sail.

Keep in mind large headsails are a pain to tack handle especially as the overlap grows. The catch on everything and often must be walked around in light winds. In addition, once beyond 5 to 8 knots of wind they tend to heel the boat more than necessary and most keep them up too long before going to a more appropriate sized sail.

Cruiser racers, especially shoal draft models which are by nature heavier, are going to be tough to be competitive in lighter air.

I would recommend opting for higher tech smaller sails which hold optimum shape through better range of wind, and allow you to more be more nimble with tacks so you can work shifts and hunt wind. Not only will this likely be more effective, it will also be more fun.

For the drifter days... Consider a Code Zero to keep you moving even if not right on the wind. This will be more effective than a 130/140, and will provide more flexibility for other points of sail.

We have a code 0 and we like it but i would not recommend for racing.
The best way to come about or jibe is to roll in the code 0 which takes time if you are racing.

For leisure sailing like we do, the code 0 is great for light wind up to 12 knots or so.

[MartyB]

A code 0 was actually designed for racing. Not buoy racing however. ocean racing where tacks etc can go on and on for hrs or days at a time. Then the issue with tacking is not a big one vs buoy racing where you have turning places, tacks etc every 5-10 min or a bit more.
Not so sure personally for most of the racing I do a 0 is the correct sail. It would be better to have a mast head rig with a 155-160 genoa. For me locally, a "0" is considered a genoa, so you lose that rating advantage vs IRC or other ratings where the "0" counts as a spin in the rating.
if you are going to race, it helps to buy a beer or three or more to folks that know the local racing rules regarding sails and types as to if something is worth doing. Props in my area, make more sense to invest in that sails. You get a 9 or 12 sec credit with a 2 or 3 blade fixed prop. But if you gain typically .5 to 1 knot of boat speed with a folding or feathering prop, you have long negated the credit you get with upwards of a 1-2 min per mile actual speed gain! My 155 is actually a -3 sec hit or lowing my rating. But I do seem to gain 10 secs a mile vs the smaller size. SO a gain of 7 secs a mile despite the hit.
If you want to be in the pickle dish group, knowing what gains you speed and not taking a rating hit, or the hit is worth it like the prop, that is what you need to do to get the pickle dishes to bring home.

Marty

[relentless899]

Great stuff I have gotten lots of useful info from all, thank you. I am not the owner of the boat, but as I was on the owner’s previous boat, I am mostly in charge of racing purchases such as deck hardware, sails and bottom finish. I was trying to decide which way to go on sailcloth because we do get a rating break with PHRF if we do not use any exotic material but most of our races seem to be going ORRez, which has no such break. I have been talking to Doyle about Delta Race with Technora and Carbon fibers with no taffeta. Because of the input from others in this forum, I think with this sail we would be able to increase our wind range and keep the weight down, even though we will lose the PHRF break. They now think they can fit a 135% on.

They did have an interesting sail combination that they said they had used on similar boats. They claimed that they got a 40 sec per mile rating break with this combo but they could not explain how they achieved the sec per mile math for an ORRez rating. They wanted to build a 110 or a 100 jib for up wind possibly sheeted inside or through the shrouds. Then go directly to a Code sail. They claimed that ORRez penalizes big jib sizes but not the code, it is considered a spinnaker. Unfortunately when I reminded them that we were shoal draft they said never mind it would not work with that keel. If it was a TRUE 40sec combo it would have had my interest especially since a lot of our racing is random leg. But the owner and I are still big genoa guys; the last boat had a UK s-glass 155%.

This boat came with a specially designed roller furling asymmetrical. I called the sail maker and he said it was a one-off and could be better described as a 180 genoa. After the Genoa is decided our next decision will be whether to get a main or a real code sail or other asymmetrical. I don’t think the owner would go for multiple asymmetricals, so I think it is going to have to be one and done on the roller furler.
The 36i is new to us and all help is appreciated.

[johannes]

A code 0 can be used for buoy racing. Last month when we raced there was a boat with a code 0, and they were very quick to furl and unfurl. I would say less than four seconds for the entire procedure.

[zaphod]

Sept 27, 2020 12:41:06 GMT relentless899 said:

Great stuff I have gotten lots of useful info from all, thank you. I am not the owner of the boat, but as I was on the owner’s previous boat, I am mostly in charge of racing purchases such as deck hardware, sails and bottom finish. I was trying to decide which way to go on sailcloth because we do get a rating break with PHRF if we do not use any exotic material but most of our races seem to be going ORRez, which has no such break. I have been talking to Doyle about Delta Race with Technora and Carbon fibers with no taffeta. Because of the input from others in this forum, I think with this sail we would be able to increase our wind range and keep the weight down, even though we will lose the PHRF break. They now think they can fit a 135% on.

They did have an interesting sail combination that they said they had used on similar boats. They claimed that they got a 40 sec per mile rating break with this combo but they could not explain how they achieved the sec per mile math for an ORRez rating. They wanted to build a 110 or a 100 jib for up wind possibly sheeted inside or through the shrouds. Then go directly to a Code sail. They claimed that ORRez penalizes big jib sizes but not the code, it is considered a spinnaker. Unfortunately when I reminded them that we were shoal draft they said never mind it would not work with that keel. If it was a TRUE 40sec combo it would have had my interest especially since a lot of our racing is random leg. But the owner and I are still big genoa guys; the last boat had a UK s-glass 155%.

This boat came with a specially designed roller furling asymmetrical. I called the sail maker and he said it was a one-off and could be better described as a 180 genoa. After the Genoa is decided our next decision will be whether to get a main or a real code sail or other asymmetrical. I don’t think the owner would go for multiple asymmetricals, so I think it is going to have to be one and done on the roller furler.
The 36i is new to us and all help is appreciated.

You have to be careful when playing the rating game. A 40 point credit sounds appealing, but if the 36i is anything like my 39i it is already under powered. Going with a smaller headsail will make that situation even worse. You will get absolutely destroyed upwind particularly in lighter conditions. Unless you are mostly sailing in heavy air, reducing your upwind sailplan is a bad idea imho.

If you already have a spinnaker, you may want to consider a new mainsail. The main is the one sail that is up all the time, and it is also by far the heaviest sail. A racing laminate mainsail will be far lighter than the stock main which will reduce your heeling moment. It will also likely be flatter in upwind trim, allowing you carry it full in stronger conditions. You may also be able to gain sail area with a more aggressive roach and full battens. Unfortunately the mainsail is also the most expensive sail, but if your skipper is serious about racing he is gonna have to open his wallet!

[relentless899]

Zaphod I agree the 36i also feels under-powered up wind. Why make it worse. I like your common sense line that the main sail is the only sail that is up all the time and is the heaviest. We have decided to just go as large and as light as we can and the rating be dammed. Thanks for your info and the info of others it has helped us make some difficult choices.

Well we have made a final decision, I think. We are going with Doyle’s Racing Stratis Delta with no taffeta for both sails. They have remeasured the boat but they have not given us a final Genoa size yet but have speculated that with a low clew it will be over 135%.

We are hoping the roller furling main will except vertical battens. I need get them the opening width in the mast and they are also going to contact Selden.

Financially we will have to wait a bit for a new asymmetrical. It might be best to see how the off wind performance is effected by the new sails before picking an asymmetrical shape.

Does anyone have any info on a 2007 SO 36i Shoal Draft with a Selden roller furling mast excepting vertical battens from Doyle or others.

[ithaki]

Relentless,

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but I would like to know what sails you ended up buying and how happy were you with your decisions. I have a 2007 36i SO SD that we race a lot. We have been getting killed in light air and I was thinking of going to a 150%, but to do that I think I will have to install a longer jib track (if that's possible)

Also, what do you have for a base handicap. My PHRF New England base handicap is 117 which seems too fast of a handicap when I compare it to other boats with similar handicaps in our region and other regions. 

Ithaki

[DarknStormy]

Sept 27, 2020 14:19:42 GMT johannes said:

A code 0 can be used for buoy racing. Last month when we raced there was a boat with a code 0, and they were very quick to furl and unfurl. I would say less than four seconds for the entire procedure.

A nicely trained crew!

[MartyB]

Will be interesting to see if we get an answer.

In the mean time, I bought a 158lp light wieght Ullman FiberPath last spring. About half the wieght of my 155. Major gain in speed in the 3-12 knot relm.
I didn't get a rating hit either. As it was built to a max code 6 jib spec. My 155 was just over the base code 5. I had 8-10 SQ ft to work with. I am hit with a -3 sec per mile under local PHRF rules with current.
Then got a maxed out code 5 spin. It's taken a few trips out to reel in the 100 SQ ft bigger spin vs older one. I got a 9 sec credit with it. Literally lost more actual time using it racing, usually did NFS, did well.

Yes, having the correct sail cloth, wieght, cut etc for the application wind speed you are out in helps you go faster, less heel, sideways slipping going up wind.

Marty

[ithaki]

Marty, Did you have to upgrade your jib track for the 158? It doesn't seem that the jib track is long enough to accommodate even a 150LP

Thanks, Ithaki

[MartyB]

Ithaki,

I don't have a 36i. My boat is a mid 80's IOR style boat. Small main, BIG jib.
To answer your question, it's possible you would need to put a longer track on a 36i.
I have replaced my tracks on my Arcadia. I may be replacing them again in the next few months to a Karked line control system with bearings on the carr

I'm trying to say my experience with different cloth wieght s in different wind ranges.

Marty