garyt
Junior Member
Posts: 24
Jeanneau Model: J54
Home Port: NEW YORK HARBOR
Country: USA
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Post by garyt on Jul 30, 2020 20:54:30 GMT
Has anyone installed Lithium batteries on their boat? Can you leave the charger on while you're away for a few days? What charging volts should the charger put out during charging? These questions are about Super B batteries.
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Post by fakinx on Jul 31, 2020 14:34:27 GMT
Not familiar with your battery type but leaving charger on when not present is not recomended on any Li chemistry. Not even solar. Li batteries have very small to none self discharge and should be put to storage about 60% full. There are many threads about those batteries and some very knowledgeable people here. Suggest using search function.
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Post by Madicken on Jul 31, 2020 18:25:31 GMT
Lithium batteries have many benefits. But they are dangerous. Above all, they can not be extinguished. Ask any firefighter, or Boeing ....
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Post by fakinx on Jul 31, 2020 18:29:59 GMT
I think it’s LiFePO4 or LiFe(Y)PO4 chemistry in question. They are completely safe and do not burn, just vent. Hopefully. Any other Li chemistry is unsutable for use on boats.
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Post by vasko on Aug 1, 2020 4:44:58 GMT
I have for number of years LiFePo4 batteries on my boat and from this summer I’m 100% only LiFePo4 batteries on my boat
From where I stand now I have no single clue why people still use the wet/gel/agm etc. type outdated technology including the expensive brands. - there is no single sensible reason to not go lithium when your old batteries are for changing .
In my case I had 400ah varta deep cycle for house and 75ah varta start (all in > 98% condition when I removed them)
now I have 240ah lifepo4 for house and 20ah lifepo4 for start - what a joy! I now have now about 3x times more juice and the engine start a lot better and easy.
I paid £650 total for the 2x120ah lifepo4 with 150a bms each and £110 for the 20ah fine balanced no BMS - 1100 CCA
Important for LiFePo4 you need either a old non-smart mains charger which is not smart or a smart charger with lithium profile, for the solars you either also need a lithium profile or manual profile adjustments my solar is EPEVER snd I use the manual profile adjustment.
And yes you can leave them connected to power source forewer - the bms will do its job
Having a smart charger is nit a real problem you will just nit use to 100% your batteries- e.g they will charge to about 60% because if the floating etc. logic
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Post by achosenman on Aug 1, 2020 5:28:50 GMT
Lithium batteries have many benefits. But they are dangerous. Above all, they can not be extinguished. Ask any firefighter, or Boeing .... That was a different type of Lithium. They used LiCoO2 as the positive electrode. These days LiFePO is used for most leisure Lithium batteries
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Post by fakinx on Aug 1, 2020 6:48:19 GMT
Vasko, how did you solve alt charging? Do you have smart alternator or do you use some other trick for correctly charging your Li batt? I’m almost finished with my design of Li on board but I’m still stucked at alternator charging profile. I intend (for now) to use starter battery (Pb) to act as resistor for alt safety since I’d rather buy some more Ah than a new alt or controler...
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Camira
Junior Member
Posts: 19
Jeanneau Model: Sun Odyssey 42DS
Yacht Name: Camira
Home Port: St Helier
Country: Jersey, Channel Islands
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Post by Camira on Aug 1, 2020 16:15:28 GMT
I have lithium ion batteries (Transporter Energy or Battle Born in USA) I have them permanently connected to my shore power via the Victron Energy Muilticharger and also to my Solar Panels via a Victron Energy MPPT unit. each battery has its own BMS and has given me no problems in the two years since installing. I am more than happy with the installation and the system has transformed my life on board as never short of power nowadays.
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Post by vasko on Aug 2, 2020 4:53:15 GMT
When on engine - I have a engine compartment blower which is always ON
For the shore power my starter battery do not have BMS and I have a very old non-smart charger switchable 6 -12a which cuts off at 14.4v
The solar charge controller is MPPT EPEVER 40A which originally do not have lithium profile but have a manual configuration and I set it up manually - basically lithium profile Is a lot simpler then wet/agm/gel
The only issue that I have is with the wingen airbreeze and its embedded mppt which cannot be configured and if batteries are full can go for 15 seconds over 16v which triggers by alarm and battery guard and in the end I switch on the wingen manually on when I need actual charging which is very rare - seems like with the solars snd lithium I do not need any shore power or windgen at all now. I’m olaning to put a auto switch off relay to the windgen in some-point...
Windgen and solar charges only house bank, engine and shore charges everything
The start battery do nit have BMS(fine balanced)
The house batteries each has a 150a BMS
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Post by vasko on Aug 2, 2020 4:56:10 GMT
Initially I left one wet battery just as a resistor in parallel and emergency backup - but it turned out there no need and now it is disconnected and I connect it once every two month fir topup fir emergency vase
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Post by vasko on Aug 2, 2020 5:03:45 GMT
The difference of having lithium now and wet before is unbelievable ... I can run aircon for 2-3 hiurs, watermaker for 10h, waterheater on inverter etc. and at evening the batteries are still fully charged
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Post by fakinx on Aug 2, 2020 7:58:35 GMT
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Post by vasko on Aug 2, 2020 11:25:32 GMT
No I didn’t ditch at all all is working together like a charm Without any changes - just drop in replacement from wet to LiFePo4 I was just making a note that currently it seems only the solars are enough to keep everything running ...
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Post by alenka on Aug 2, 2020 12:30:23 GMT
Hi Vasko.
If you were designing an electric system for a cruising boat what exactly would you fit and why?
Each time i have looked at moving away from standard wet batteries the cost for a new installation, that includes a new shore power charger and alternator works out to be very expensive. I also have at the back of my mind that the boat spends at least 7 months with no one in attendance to check that all is well - In the current Covid situation it looks as though it could be 11 months between visits. Lots of time for a small problem to destroy any set of batteries and that would be a big ouch for Lipo.
Is there a smart charger that will take inputs from shore power, alternator and solar (as appropriate) and then distribute the output to where it is needed... House batteries, starter and bow thruster batteries?? Or does that level of sophistication not yet exist?
Messing with lithium batteries can be hazardous and installation I understand needs careful consideration for both cooling and heating.
We destroyed two e-bike batteries last winter (£500 to replace each) due to bad chargers and storage - Or at least that's what the manufacturer said.
We also run two electric cars and the latest addition all but destroyed the type 2 home charging point over a period of two months.
I should stress however that electric cars are no more likely to burst into flames than a traditional gas powered car. Once driven you won't go back!!!
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Post by jy51 on Aug 2, 2020 14:52:25 GMT
Has anyone installed Lithium batteries on their boat? Can you leave the charger on while you're away for a few days? What charging volts should the charger put out during charging? These questions are about Super B batteries. I have three Super B lithium batteries. Firstly they are safe, the chemical make up of these batteries is completely different from the earlier chemistry that proved temperamental. At 65% of charge, they will recharge to 100% in about one hour. They run at about 13.3 volts and charge at 13.8, when full charged they show just over 14 volts but will settle down to 13.6 whilst the charger is operating at float. They are very expensive, however they will maintain their voltage, never dropping below 13 volts, even when running a hairdryer on the inverter. If need be, these batteries can be put into sleep mode, and I believe they will only discharge at a much slower rate then conventional batteries.
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Post by Gio on Aug 3, 2020 6:33:13 GMT
I have for number of years LiFePo4 batteries on my boat and from this summer I’m 100% only LiFePo4 batteries on my boat From where I stand now I have no single clue why people still use the wet/gel/agm etc. type outdated technology including the expensive brands. - there is no single sensible reason to not go lithium when your old batteries are for changing . In my case I had 400ah varta deep cycle for house and 75ah varta start (all in > 98% condition when I removed them) now I have 240ah lifepo4 for house and 20ah lifepo4 for start - what a joy! I now have now about 3x times more juice and the engine start a lot better and easy. I paid £650 total for the 2x120ah lifepo4 with 150a bms each and £110 for the 20ah fine balanced no BMS - 1100 CCA Important for LiFePo4 you need either a old non-smart mains charger which is not smart or a smart charger with lithium profile, for the solars you either also need a lithium profile or manual profile adjustments my solar is EPEVER snd I use the manual profile adjustment. And yes you can leave them connected to power source forewer - the bms will do its job Having a smart charger is nit a real problem you will just nit use to 100% your batteries- e.g they will charge to about 60% because if the floating etc. logic Very interesting info - would you mind to provide with links to the manufacturers of these batteries? They look very competitively priced compared, for example, Mastervolt. Basically from your post above we can say that a Lifepo4 with 240Ah can replace a standard deep cycle battery of 400Ah? From your numbers you can use ~80% of the Lifepo4 capacity (~192Ah) vs the typical 50% of the conventional deep cycle (400Ah @ 50% = ~200Ah). I am in the middle of a similar project in a motorboat, and i am still debating if the extra cost of Lithium make sense. For sure the weight saving will be a big improvement in my boat.
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Post by alenka on Aug 3, 2020 7:16:05 GMT
I have for number of years LiFePo4 batteries on my boat and from this summer I’m 100% only LiFePo4 batteries on my boat From where I stand now I have no single clue why people still use the wet/gel/agm etc. type outdated technology including the expensive brands. - there is no single sensible reason to not go lithium when your old batteries are for changing . In my case I had 400ah varta deep cycle for house and 75ah varta start (all in > 98% condition when I removed them) now I have 240ah lifepo4 for house and 20ah lifepo4 for start - what a joy! I now have now about 3x times more juice and the engine start a lot better and easy. I paid £650 total for the 2x120ah lifepo4 with 150a bms each and £110 for the 20ah fine balanced no BMS - 1100 CCA Important for LiFePo4 you need either a old non-smart mains charger which is not smart or a smart charger with lithium profile, for the solars you either also need a lithium profile or manual profile adjustments my solar is EPEVER snd I use the manual profile adjustment. And yes you can leave them connected to power source forewer - the bms will do its job Having a smart charger is nit a real problem you will just nit use to 100% your batteries- e.g they will charge to about 60% because if the floating etc. logic Very interesting info - would you mind to provide with links to the manufacturers of these batteries? They look very competitively priced compared, for example, Mastervolt. Basically from your post above we can say that a Lifepo4 with 240Ah can replace a standard deep cycle battery of 400Ah? From your numbers you can use ~80% of the Lifepo4 capacity (~192Ah) vs the typical 50% of the conventional deep cycle (400Ah @ 50% = ~200Ah). I am in the middle of a similar project in a motorboat, and i am still debating if the extra cost of Lithium make sense. For sure the weight saving will be a big improvement in my boat. I think you will find Vasko bought them direct from China via a site such as Bangood. You could get lucky and get batteries that meet international safety standards but many sourced this way do not.
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Post by vasko on Aug 3, 2020 7:24:34 GMT
I have for number of years LiFePo4 batteries on my boat and from this summer I’m 100% only LiFePo4 batteries on my boat From where I stand now I have no single clue why people still use the wet/gel/agm etc. type outdated technology including the expensive brands. - there is no single sensible reason to not go lithium when your old batteries are for changing . In my case I had 400ah varta deep cycle for house and 75ah varta start (all in > 98% condition when I removed them) now I have 240ah lifepo4 for house and 20ah lifepo4 for start - what a joy! I now have now about 3x times more juice and the engine start a lot better and easy. I paid £650 total for the 2x120ah lifepo4 with 150a bms each and £110 for the 20ah fine balanced no BMS - 1100 CCA Important for LiFePo4 you need either a old non-smart mains charger which is not smart or a smart charger with lithium profile, for the solars you either also need a lithium profile or manual profile adjustments my solar is EPEVER snd I use the manual profile adjustment. And yes you can leave them connected to power source forewer - the bms will do its job Having a smart charger is nit a real problem you will just nit use to 100% your batteries- e.g they will charge to about 60% because if the floating etc. logic Very interesting info - would you mind to provide with links to the manufacturers of these batteries? They look very competitively priced compared, for example, Mastervolt. Basically from your post above we can say that a Lifepo4 with 240Ah can replace a standard deep cycle battery of 400Ah? From your numbers you can use ~80% of the Lifepo4 capacity (~192Ah) vs the typical 50% of the conventional deep cycle (400Ah @ 50% = ~200Ah). I am in the middle of a similar project in a motorboat, and i am still debating if the extra cost of Lithium make sense. For sure the weight saving will be a big improvement in my boat. all LiFePo4 batteries with BMS will behave exactly as described.
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Post by vasko on Aug 3, 2020 8:31:33 GMT
OK my full story : 0. pre-requisites: I experimented and work with Li batteries from about 6 years - including my own electric outboard with my own controlling, charging and my own remote control - I have two version with LiFePo4 battery pack 40ah and 80ah with 18650 cells. installing and experimenting on the boat itself : 1. 5 years ago I got completely fed up with the wet starting battery read tons of docs and got to the conclusion that 20ah LiFePo4 is alot better then 120ah wet/agm/gel - and got one from : shop.gwl.eu/LiFeYPO4-batteries-12V-1-1/Lithium-Battery-LiFePO4-12V-20Ah.htmlthis exact model is design for starter battery and is 1100 CCA and can run your starter motor for about 10 minutes and is fine balanced cells without BMS - if your engine do not start for 10 minutes constant turning I guess it will never start the starting is a lot easier as the battery is keeping 13.6-14v even at full turning.. 2. 4 years installed a drop in LiFePo4 battery 4 cells 40ah each no BMS for my bow thruster and it was working fine till this summer when I added to it a BMS ( 120a ) also - still with the same cells - no separate charging connected in parallel to my house battery bank with wet cells and no special separate charging or whatsoever - the cells are from this type : shop.gwl.eu/LiFePO4-cells-3-2-V/IFPP50-Lithium-Cell-LiFePO4-3-2V-50Ah.htmlBMS is from this type : www.aliexpress.com/item/32921412658.html3. for this season I got 2 x 120 ah LiFePo4 from a new seller in promotion from Aliexpress and asked him to upgrade the standard 120a BMS's to 150a ( it turned out I did not needed it but still feel safer with bigger BMS) - the total price with shipping to UK that I paid was £650 - I test then thoroughly with fully discharging and charging and I was able to get exactly 120ah from them ( actually about 30% more then a wet 12v battery compared in watts as the LiFePo4 stay around 12.6 - 13.4 all the time). the batteries are this : www.aliexpress.com/item/4000351519319.html( there was some worries about when they will be delivered as the seller put a wrong tracking number, next the tracking number showed only Germany etc. but it turned out all my worries was not needed and I got the batteries well) ONE THING TO MENTION : I was really worried about the quality and build of the batteries and I dismounted completely the two of them - had doubts about the cables, bms etc. because of all the people mentioning false materials from china - BUT AGAIN all was good and well designed and my worries were completely baseless. Tested the batteries on my car to start it 10-20 times and one of the batteries showed some issues from time to time - digging a big deeper it turned out that one of the planks on the cells was not well welded and when pushed it detached itself - found a spot welder from a friend and spot welded it again and that was all. ( to get the price low the provider has spot welded the cells instead with bolts and nuts) also the because I was worried from all the rumors about China quality I installed thermometer on every battery - turned out again completely baseless worried never seen them more then 32 degrees no matter how much power I draw - e.g. aircon 80amps for 1 hour. battery got shipped from UK to Bulgaria and from Bulgaria to my boat in Greece. 4. my setup is : - one starter battery 1x 20ah and one 1x 120ah battery in the port locker , 1 x 120ah and 1x40 ah under then bow bed for bow thruster, inverter ( washing machine, aircon, coffee machine and water heater ) - one EPVER 40AH MPPT with 530W solars which manual configuration as it is a old model and do not have Li profile by default ( charging only house) - standart 50a alternator ( charging start and house) - old non-smart mains charger switchable between 6a and 12a ( charging start and house) - 600W Airbreeze with MPPT ( charging only house) - 60a battery guard - one VARTA LFD75 for emergency connected in parallel - with switch that I switch one for one day every month just to keep it charged in case something fails with the system adn I need emergency battery. - Boat-Vitals remote monitoring system with alarms for over voltage etc. WHAT WORKS FINE AND WHAT NOT : everything except the windgen is fine - the only issue is with the windgen - as it start the atop break at 15sec over 16.15v but my battery guard max setting is 16v e.g. if the batteries are fully charged - the wingen will generate over 16v for short period and my battery guard will sound an alarm and stop the power - e.g. in my case I manage the wingen manually and switch it on only when I know that my batteries need charging for some period and do not leave it on while not at the boat... 4. What you need to take in account when switching to Lithium - the big difference is that Li batteries when charged teh BMS will completely disconnect them and some alternators do not liek running with zero load - e.g. you need to have some load - in my case I have engine compartment blower 4amps which runs constantly when engine is running - this si by design of the boat - if your boat charging is designed for wet/agm/gel then you will not be able to charge the Li batteries to 100% - most likely 60% that is generally all 5. What I regret - not trusting chinese providers and worry with no real need for it - not getting the batteries with BLE enabled BMS to be able to monitor them when I wanted without need to dive to teh batteries themself
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Post by Gio on Aug 7, 2020 6:04:15 GMT
Thanks Vasko for the answer, very useful info indeed and a lot of material to learn about.
I am not sure I have the "gut" to try such solutions, I cannot afford to make any mistakes and have some hazardous situations where I damage my brand new boat.
I may need to opt for one of the brand names such as Mastervolt, ridiculously expensive in my opinion but with a warranty and a clear installation procedure for boating applications. Also they come with CZone / NMEA2000 bus ready so you can get all the info and controls directly to your chartplotter.
Still debating what to do because the price is really hard to swallow......
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Post by vasko on Aug 7, 2020 22:34:24 GMT
Thanks Vasko for the answer, very useful info indeed and a lot of material to learn about. I am not sure I have the "gut" to try such solutions, I cannot afford to make any mistakes and have some hazardous situations where I damage my brand new boat. I may need to opt for one of the brand names such as Mastervolt, ridiculously expensive in my opinion but with a warranty and a clear installation procedure for boating applications. Also they come with CZone / NMEA2000 bus ready so you can get all the info and controls directly to your chartplotter. Still debating what to do because the price is really hard to swallow...... Not sure what you can damage except the batteries them-self The NMEA is good but tooooo many cables , I have soooo many cables already .... and really hate to get a additional one...
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Post by vasko on Aug 7, 2020 22:37:11 GMT
And sorry for the million of typos, I hate my new iPhone 11 pro it’s way way worse than the old SE when you’re typing..,
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Post by sailbleu on Aug 11, 2020 8:47:40 GMT
Not sure if you remember Vasco , but some time ago i bought a 100 Ah ( small suitcase model) LifePo4 for the electric outboard to replace the lead acid 40Ah each batteries . A few days ago I had the opportunity to test as the Canaries where opened up after lockdown in July . What a difference , the light weight LifePo4 is not only a dream to get in to the dinghy , it keeps going and the quadrupled the distance . As you know the suitcase model also has BMS so charging can be done with whatever charger . After all , the BMS keeps charging safe ,....yes ?
I’m seriously thinking of replacing atleast one house battery , 240Ah , the oldest , and keep the newest one . Someone drew my attention to the fact that it’s better to use separate cells and build up to 12volt ( 13.5 ) in case one cell goes bad . No need to replace the entire battery you see . Would you think that’s a good idea ?
Regards
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Post by vasko on Aug 11, 2020 12:25:11 GMT
Not sure if you remember Vasco , but some time ago i bought a 100 Ah ( small suitcase model) LifePo4 for the electric outboard to replace the lead acid 40Ah each batteries . A few days ago I had the opportunity to test as the Canaries where opened up after lockdown in July . What a difference , the light weight LifePo4 is not only a dream to get in to the dinghy , it keeps going and the quadrupled the distance . As you know the suitcase model also has BMS so charging can be done with whatever charger . After all , the BMS keeps charging safe ,....yes ? I’m seriously thinking of replacing atleast one house battery , 240Ah , the oldest , and keep the newest one . Someone drew my attention to the fact that it’s better to use separate cells and build up to 12volt ( 13.5 ) in case one cell goes bad . No need to replace the entire battery you see . Would you think that’s a good idea ? Regards The batteries that I got from aliexpress - can be opened and services (e.g replace a cell) - the only draw back is that the cells are spot welded not bolted to the copper planks connecting them - one of mine had a bad spot welding and I’ve redone it At the price that I paid I will go for the whole pack - building from cells will almost double the price
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Post by Gio on Aug 11, 2020 18:46:17 GMT
Vasko - I have a question: the house batteries you have recommended from aliexpress have in some cases incorporated the BMS. Do you connect them directly to the source/use of energy, i.e. to the alternator or the lithium battery inverter/charger or you put something else in-between?
Other brands (e.g. Mastervolt) require a mandatory safety relay (Blue Sea Systems' ML RBS Remote Battery Switch) and fuse in the positive pole.
I am redoing the wring in my motorboat and I definitely learn a lot from sailing boat systems, much more complex and efficient - if you have a wiring schematics with the components to show would be very helpful
thanks
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