|
|
Post by alenka on May 5, 2020 12:44:30 GMT
Many Brit's are just coming to terms with the fact that post BREXIT our time in EU countries may well be limited to just 90 days in a 180 day rolling period, making extended cruising quite difficult. There are a number of emails doing the rounds asking you sign petitions asking the government to negotiate a 6 month reciprocal arrangement. Some of these emails and some of these petitions are from unknown sources and could be nothing more than data mining to get emails addresses - Be careful. The following has been started by a member of the Cruising Association and is legit. If you feel you can support the cause please do so by following the link and in addition if you can post it to other forums that would also help. There are around an estimated 500,000 Brits that have holiday homes, boats & camper vans based in Europe. All will be affected unless they are able to get a residency permit of some sorts. A 6 month reciprocal or a 6 month visa would probably be the easiest solution. petition.parliament.uk/petitions/319520/sponsors/new?token=qVy0ZUQyjyRtxhC-BhAq |
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 5, 2020 17:04:09 GMT
I think, signing a petition now, is like flogging a dead horse. In fact, the more appropriate expression would be, we have missed the boat.
To gain more freedom of access to Europe we would either need to be in the EU or at least signed up to the Schengen open borders Agreement.
The justification of Brexit, was partly based on the desire to restrict access to Europeans. The UK never signed up to the Schengen Agreement, and it would be unthinkable that the UK government would do a U turn against Brexit ideology and join now.
The UK has not yet negotiated a mutually, agreeable trade deal with the EU, yet the EU has already offered the UK the Schengen visa free 90/180 day access. This is the same visa as offered to all trading partners like Canada, Australia, Japan and others.
Too imaging that the EU 26 nations, and the Schengen Council would agreed to change the visa free access rules to accommodate a special deal for the English, (the only country ever to leave the block), which would be superior to that on offer to all the others is absurd.
|
|
|
|
Post by Mozz on May 6, 2020 2:58:20 GMT
Does anyone know if leaving the Schengen zone with one passport and coming back on another for those of us that have dual nationality is a possibility, as in effect its still the same person on the ships log just a different passport and number. This way you will then be able to sail indefinately in Greece as we want to do, If we can get there this season.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 6, 2020 5:19:47 GMT
Does anyone know if leaving the Schengen zone with one passport and coming back on another for those of us that have dual nationality is a possibility, as in effect its still the same person on the ships log just a different passport and number. This way you will then be able to sail indefinately in Greece as we want to do, If we can get there this season. The simple answer is no. If you read the Schengen rules, entering on one non EU or non Schengen member passport and leaving on another is illegal. In the past it has been feasible to get away with this if passport control is not on the ball or they failed to stamp either passport, however, next year as they unfold the new computer system it will be impossible. |
|
|
|
Post by alenka on May 6, 2020 8:40:55 GMT
Does anyone know if leaving the Schengen zone with one passport and coming back on another for those of us that have dual nationality is a possibility, as in effect its still the same person on the ships log just a different passport and number. This way you will then be able to sail indefinately in Greece as we want to do, If we can get there this season. I was surprised to hear that (at one airport at least) people were entering and leaving Greece showing their residency permit rather than a passport. Well that was this year, who knows about next; and I have no idea how that flags up on the computerised system. I was equally surprised entering France last summer from Jersey to be waved through with no passport check because there were too many people waiting. I wonder how that flagged up when I had my passport swiped going back the other way? |
|
|
|
Post by vasko on May 6, 2020 11:17:09 GMT
Currently in Greece you can enter the country with:
1. Geek passport
2. Tax residency
3. Property deed on your name in Greece
4. Notarised letting contract for property in Greece
In some places a ownership of a boat and proof that it is in greek marina is treated as point 3 but not official
Travel to the islands is allowed on a ferry only with Tax residency on the island - from 18.May with property deed should be allowed also
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 6, 2020 13:05:11 GMT
Does anyone know if leaving the Schengen zone with one passport and coming back on another for those of us that have dual nationality is a possibility, as in effect its still the same person on the ships log just a different passport and number. This way you will then be able to sail indefinately in Greece as we want to do, If we can get there this season. I was surprised to hear that (at one airport at least) people were entering and leaving Greece showing their residency permit rather than a passport. Well that was this year, who knows about next; and I have no idea how that flags up on the computerised system. I was equally surprised entering France last summer from Jersey to be waved through with no passport check because there were too many people waiting. I wonder how that flagged up when I had my passport swiped going back the other way? alenka, I believe we have touched on this subject before? Yes, I too have arrived in France on the last flight from the UK and didn’t even see a single sole at passport control, and simply walked through, I could have been caring a gun and a suitcase full of drugs, and that was 26 years ago. But remember every time you entered a Schengen Country from the UK in the past, you were an EU citizen with all the benefits that offered. The UK never was a Schengen member and maintained passport control, but Schengen members had the habit of waving you through as you were coming from another EU country, the only reason to stop you was to control illegal contraband. That will all change after 2020. Throughout Europe, and possibly the world you will find inefficient customs and border police. However, when you do get caught, they have the habit of throwing the book at you! I have American friends that kept a yacht in Barcelona. They would fly into Europe via Switzerland and then take a flight to Barcelona. They had the benefit of a visa free 90 day access, and every year, year in, year out they would arrive and have officials stamp their passports and usher them through. They would spend up to 6 months, sometimes longer in Spain, until one year, while passing through Swiss customs, they were asked to enter an office and sit down. An official took down the date of every stamp they had accumulated and discovered they had been breaking Schengen rules. They were forced to book a return flight to America within the allowed period and warned that due to the seriousness of their actions, caught a second time, they would be banned from accessing the Schengen Region forever. Not wishing to restrict themselves to 90 days they decided to sell the boat and no longer come to Europe. A sad and somewhat seemingly pointless restriction and loss to the Spanish economy as they eat out most nights, but that’s the rules, like it or not. Do you want to take that risk, would you break the rules and then have the problem of being black listed for the rest of your life? Maybe, not even allowed back to your boat in a Greek marina. I'm sure there will be many at first, that due to habit and need, will try to cheat the system, eventually they will get caught, I'm afraid it is inevitable. Even as a French resident, with a UK passport I will only be allowed 90 days in Spain and I am looking at ways to extend my summer sailing, by possible spending some of the summer period sailing the French and Corsican coast. |
|
|
|
Post by Spritz on May 6, 2020 13:10:57 GMT
dear jY51,
you wrote:
"I have American friends that kept a yacht in Barcelona. They would fly into Europe via Switzerland and then take a flight to Barcelona. They had the benefit of a visa free 90 day access, and every year, year in, year out they would arrive and have officials stamp their passports and usher them through. They would spend up to 6 months, sometimes longer in Spain, until one year, while passing through Swiss customs, they were asked to enter an office and sit down. An official took down the date of every stamp they had accumulated and discovered they had been breaking Schengen rules. They were forced to book a return flight to America within the allowed period and warned that due to the seriousness of their actions, caught a second time, they would be banned from accessing the Schengen Region forever. Not wishing to restrict themselves to 90 days they decided to sell the boat and no longer come to Europe. A sad and somewhat seemingly pointless restriction and loss to the Spanish economy as they eat out most nights, but that’s the rules, like it or not."
please ask them what would happen if in someone would found himself in the same situation in USA.
i lived and currently I am working in USA, if something would happen you would immediately go to jail (correctly, from my point of view).
Visas have a clear duration and you have to accomplish their impositions
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 6, 2020 13:17:22 GMT
dear jY51, you wrote: "I have American friends that kept a yacht in Barcelona. They would fly into Europe via Switzerland and then take a flight to Barcelona. They had the benefit of a visa free 90 day access, and every year, year in, year out they would arrive and have officials stamp their passports and usher them through. They would spend up to 6 months, sometimes longer in Spain, until one year, while passing through Swiss customs, they were asked to enter an office and sit down. An official took down the date of every stamp they had accumulated and discovered they had been breaking Schengen rules. They were forced to book a return flight to America within the allowed period and warned that due to the seriousness of their actions, caught a second time, they would be banned from accessing the Schengen Region forever. Not wishing to restrict themselves to 90 days they decided to sell the boat and no longer come to Europe. A sad and somewhat seemingly pointless restriction and loss to the Spanish economy as they eat out most nights, but that’s the rules, like it or not." please ask them what would happen if in someone would found himself in the same situation in USA. i lived and currently I am working in USA, if something would happen you would immediately go to jail (correctly, from my point of view). Visas have a clear duration and you have to accomplish their impositions I do not disagree with you, there are many countries throughout the world that would put you in jail for breaking visa rules. I do not condone the actions of my friends, but simply point out that regardless of the stories one hears of people getting away with it, eventually everyone gets caught. |
|
|
|
Post by alenka on May 6, 2020 17:49:11 GMT
Dear JY51,
Jersey has a special relationship with the European Union (EU). In simple terms, the Island is treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise is not a part of the EU.
PS. I have never intimated at trying to beat or cheat the system. It is what it is and we have to live with it, unless changes can be brought to bear by legitimate means.
|
|
|
|
Post by Spritz on May 6, 2020 22:53:43 GMT
Dear Alenka, are you sure Jersey will maintain the benefit after brexit?
sincerely I am not
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 7, 2020 8:55:42 GMT
Dear JY51, Jersey has a special relationship with the European Union (EU). In simple terms, the Island is treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise is not a part of the EU. PS. I have never intimated at trying to beat or cheat the system. It is what it is and we have to live with it, unless changes can be brought to bear by legitimate means. alenka, I apologies if it came across as if I was making comments directed at you personally. I was referring to "you" as the public in general. The British chose this route, knowing that it would stop their freedom of movement within Europe, which will adversely effect many thousands of peoples lives. I was just trying to make it crystal clear that although people are still finding it hard to come to terms with this, there is no magic wand, we will all have to accept the inevitable of a change in lifestyle. In my own case it included (what to some might seem a drastic move) taking up French residency to enable me to visit my holiday home and stay as long as I wished. As you rightly say, The channel Islands are not in the EU or the Schengen Region, however I think we can assume that Islanders have a passports issued by the British governement which gives them, the same citizenship rights to the EU as those living in the UK., at least until the end of this year. Concerning breaking rules and regulations, I, personally have a dilemma after next year! To visit my boat I will cross the French/Spanish Schengen open border in a French registered car without any passport control and will do the same when I return to France. The only control will be if Guardia Civil board my boat and ask to see my passport, or when entering a marina, which isn't my home port. So if I stay in Spain for 5 or 6 months as normal, and do not get controlled, do I risk getting caught? Every person here with a British passport has the same problem after next year regardless of where they live. Unless, like Vasko, you have joint nationality with an EU Country. I'm sure there are many of us looking back through family history to find that Irish connection, unfortunately I haven't found mine yet! |
|
|
|
Post by alenka on May 7, 2020 9:24:48 GMT
Hi Guys,
Jersey will certainly have revised rights post BREXIT as will the other Channel Islands.
Channel Islanders only enjoyed freedom of movement within the EU on a Jersey EU passport if they could prove a link to the UK. Commonly referred to as Grandfather rights I believe.
But we are wandering way off my original post. Which is about a formal petition to government to try and negotiate a 6 month Visa.
The benefits would not just be for Brit's but also for the estimated 2.3 million EU citizens that now live and work in the UK. Many of them I have no doubt would also like an arrangement which would allow their family to visit, at times, for longer than 90 days.
It would be a benefit to all Brits and EU citizens whilst not undermining the principle of the BREXIT vote.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 7, 2020 13:39:30 GMT
Hi Guys, Jersey will certainly have revised rights post BREXIT as will the other Channel Islands. Channel Islanders only enjoyed freedom of movement within the EU on a Jersey EU passport if they could prove a link to the UK. Commonly referred to as Grandfather rights I believe. But we are wandering way off my original post. Which is about a formal petition to government to try and negotiate a 6 month Visa. The benefits would not just be for Brit's but also for the estimated 2.3 million EU citizens that now live and work in the UK. Many of them I have no doubt would also like an arrangement which would allow their family to visit, at times, for longer than 90 days. It would be a benefit to all Brits and EU citizens whilst not undermining the principle of the BREXIT vote. I can only repeat my previous post. Regardless of how you dress it up, you will be asking the EU parliament to change the Schengen Agreement rules of which we are non members. You will be asking them to create a two tier system which favours the British above the existing agreements with other trading partners. Above all you will be asking them to give the UK privileges only offered to member States. You will be asking them to do this under the current hostile negotiating conditions. All this will have to be agreed by 26 Sovereign nations, including the French and other north European countries who will suffer greatly with their loss of fishing rights. On the British side you will be asking the government to create a new visa system and install the infrastructure to police it, not forgetting that as EU members we had flexibility of rules to restrict immigration which Westminster chose to ignore. alenka, undermining the Brexit vote or not is irrelevant to this discussion, we are not discussing political ideology but facts, facts that many will or can't yet accept. Signing a petition at this stage is a non starter. |
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 7, 2020 15:35:37 GMT
Dear JY51, Jersey has a special relationship with the European Union (EU). In simple terms, the Island is treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise is not a part of the EU. PS. I have never intimated at trying to beat or cheat the system. It is what it is and we have to live with it, unless changes can be brought to bear by legitimate means. You are right to say that the Channel Islands have, what is a very complex relationship with the EU, they are aligned with some rules and not others, they are not an independent members but negotiate through the United Kingdom, this was set up partly due to the their small size and semi autonomy. Basically, nothing much should change for Jersey or Guernsey after the end of this year, simply because they weren't members before. Revised rights (personally, I would call it the lowering of rights) you speak of can already be seen, as passports in Jersey and Guernsey will no longer be issued with the EU logo. |
|
|
|
Post by Mozz on May 8, 2020 1:11:37 GMT
My original question was not about entering with one passport and leaving on another, its perfectly legal for me to use one passport to enter and leave a country. If I then return to said country a week later on a different passport this is also legal. I am not sure that the Schengen zone picks this up as many people from different countries have the same name.
However we will probably go to somewhere like Turkey for extended cruising. Greece will have to miss out, food is probably more interesting in Turkey.
Also the petition is currently not working and has 5 signatures.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 8, 2020 6:34:54 GMT
My original question was not about entering with one passport and leaving on another, its perfectly legal for me to use one passport to enter and leave a country. If I then return to said country a week later on a different passport this is also legal. I am not sure that the Schengen zone picks this up as many people from different countries have the same name.
However we will probably go to somewhere like Turkey for extended cruising. Greece will have to miss out, food is probably more interesting in Turkey.
Also the petition is currently not working and has 5 signatures.
Sorry Mozz, I have reread your posting. But technically the answer is the same, however, wether you get stopped or not will depend on when the new computer system comes on line. When this system is up and running, you will also have to apply for your visa online. Applying twice with two different passports, would probably be very difficult due to the questions asked. The whole idea of an online registration is to stop terrorists and criminals, so I would have thought that using false or dual nationality would be part of their checks. But with all the checks in the world some people will give force information, I’m sure. But, it’s back to that old chestnut, “what if you get caught” is it worth the risk. |
|
|
|
Post by alenka on May 8, 2020 7:32:18 GMT
Hi Mozz,
It will take a few days for the petition to go live apparently. It has to be checked to ensure that it meets certain criteria and the aim is both genuine and ethical.
As already pointed out using two passports to try and fudge the system cannot be recommended even if legal. My work took me to countries that love to pick travel permits to bits and I can tell you sitting in a room for several hours while paperwork is checked and re-checked is no fun at all.
Just because we are leaving the EU does not mean that we should rule out any/all co-operation that is mutually beneficial.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 8, 2020 10:02:58 GMT
Hi Mozz, It will take a few days for the petition to go live apparently. It has to be checked to ensure that it meets certain criteria and the aim is both genuine and ethical. As already pointed out using two passports to try and fudge the system cannot be recommended even if legal. My work took me to countries that love to pick travel permits to bits and I can tell you sitting in a room for several hours while paperwork is checked and re-checked is no fun at all. Just because we are leaving the EU does not mean that we should rule out any/all co-operation that is mutually beneficial. The last thing I wish to be is argumentative, but I do think your statement is contrary! Putting political opinions aside, the whole point of membership was cooperation and mutual benefit, to leave and not wish to follow alignment with Europe implies the opposite. I think the British Isles has some of the best destinations in Europe, but the majority of people head south, towards the sun for recreation. I don’t believe the ability to stay in the UK on vacation for 6 months would be of paramount interest to most Europeans. So I can’t see any mutual benefit there! I think, what would be more useful, is for each British passport holder to accept the path chosen and make plans to minimise the inevitable loss of lifestyle, Since the decision was announced to leave the EU, I was quick to realise the future consequences that lay ahead, and have adapted within my own personal ability. Before sailing down to the mediterranean, I spent many years cruising around the UK and Channel Islands and have fond memories, there will be those that return from European waters to take up this option. I know of many that have already had their boats trucked back to the UK to cope with the coming changes. Others have been working out the rolling 90 days to try and fit it to their past vacation habits and make changes as needed. I have even been told by the manager of a Spanish marina that over the last two years they have noticed the normal loss of British flagged boats is not being replaced. My own marina in Spain was once predominately British but I too have noticed more and more, other European nationals taking up the empty berths. Sadly, I think it’s time to stop talking and face the reality and plan to adapt. |
|
|
|
Post by alenka on May 8, 2020 16:22:10 GMT
As I mentioned earlier in the thread there are around 2.3 million EU nationals that live and/or work in the UK. Many will choose to remain. I am sure a percentage of those would embrace the possibility of relatives visiting at times for a period of longer than 90 days.
If you do not wish to support the petition that is your prerogative and I for one would not wish to try and change your mind.
If people see the world post BREXIT in a different light they have the option to support (or not) this petition started by CA members.
|
|
|
|
Post by vasko on May 8, 2020 18:44:59 GMT
When I try to support the petitions and click the link I get the following :
We’re checking this petition
5 people have already supported Gordon Knight’s petition.
We need to check it meets the petition standards before we publish it.
Please try again in a few days.
|
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on May 8, 2020 20:41:50 GMT
As I mentioned earlier in the thread there are around 2.3 million EU nationals that live and/or work in the UK. Many will choose to remain. I am sure a percentage of those would embrace the possibility of relatives visiting at times for a period of longer than 90 days. If you do not wish to support the petition that is your prerogative and I for one would not wish to try and change your mind. If people see the world post BREXIT in a different light they have the option to support (or not) this petition started by CA members. alenka, it has nothing to do with not wishing to support a petition, it’s simply that there is no logical way, knowing what we do, that it could achieve anything. Good luck to the CA members, but a petition before we left might have had some hope, but now? There are over 440 million EU citizens and you say they might drop their principle of freedom of movement to include a non member country because of a couple of million working in the U.K. sorry but that really is not going to happen. You speak of a view of post Brexit in a different light. Have I mistaken something, have I got some facts wrong that I’ve misunderstood or interpreted incorrectly. We are all in this boat together, with the same interests. If so please correct me, because, in this instance I would love to be proven wrong. If you cannot come up with a miracle, based on cherry picking the parts of freedom of movement you wish to agree to, then, I’m afraid the only other option is for the U.K. to sign up to the Schengen Agreement, which will never happen. |
|
|
|
Post by alenka on Jul 26, 2020 8:33:31 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by captaintheo on Aug 30, 2020 10:32:27 GMT
I think, signing a petition now, is like flogging a dead horse. In fact, the more appropriate expression would be, we have missed the boat. To gain more freedom of access to Europe we would either need to be in the EU or at least signed up to the Schengen open borders Agreement. The justification of Brexit, was partly based on the desire to restrict access to Europeans. The UK never signed up to the Schengen Agreement, and it would be unthinkable that the UK government would do a U turn against Brexit ideology and join now. The UK has not yet negotiated a mutually, agreeable trade deal with the EU, yet the EU has already offered the UK the Schengen visa free 90/180 day access. This is the same visa as offered to all trading partners like Canada, Australia, Japan and others. Too imaging that the EU 26 nations, and the Schengen Council would agreed to change the visa free access rules to accommodate a special deal for the English, (the only country ever to leave the block), which would be superior to that on offer to all the others is absurd. I was Bourne and raised in Athens Greece, relocated to the US at 18 and now 33 years later consider a move back to Europe. I have been watching the entire brexit unfold. I have family and friends that live in England and I tell you I personally love London. The British people have been cheated in this deal and it makes absolutely no sense what so ever to me. Of course I’m making a judgment call for English politics and we have a clown in the White House...In any case my two cents is get rid of the idiots in your government and go back to Europe. There are far far far more benefits than not being in the union |
|
|
|
Post by jy51 on Sept 7, 2020 9:13:34 GMT
I think, signing a petition now, is like flogging a dead horse. In fact, the more appropriate expression would be, we have missed the boat. To gain more freedom of access to Europe we would either need to be in the EU or at least signed up to the Schengen open borders Agreement. The justification of Brexit, was partly based on the desire to restrict access to Europeans. The UK never signed up to the Schengen Agreement, and it would be unthinkable that the UK government would do a U turn against Brexit ideology and join now. The UK has not yet negotiated a mutually, agreeable trade deal with the EU, yet the EU has already offered the UK the Schengen visa free 90/180 day access. This is the same visa as offered to all trading partners like Canada, Australia, Japan and others. Too imaging that the EU 26 nations, and the Schengen Council would agreed to change the visa free access rules to accommodate a special deal for the English, (the only country ever to leave the block), which would be superior to that on offer to all the others is absurd. I was Bourne and raised in Athens Greece, relocated to the US at 18 and now 33 years later consider a move back to Europe. I have been watching the entire brexit unfold. I have family and friends that live in England and I tell you I personally love London. The British people have been cheated in this deal and it makes absolutely no sense what so ever to me. Of course I’m making a judgment call for English politics and we have a clown in the White House...In any case my two cents is get rid of the idiots in your government and go back to Europe. There are far far far more benefits than not being in the union I can sympathise with your remarks, however we must keep to the facts. The Brexit vote was a vote to leave the EU which at its heart contained the principle of freedom of movement. Unfortunately this will, after the end of the transition period cause considerable hardship and necessitate a change of lifestyle for many UK citizens and effect the cruising ability of Brits with boats in the Mediterranean. There are still many who voted to leave that cannot yet accept the inevitable. This petition is a prime example. So far it has attracted under 700 signatures, even to be brought up in parliament it would require 100,000 and then it would only raise a discussion. There are others that still think countries like Spain and Greece need our business and that something will happen to enable us to maintain our past benefits. They forget that the majority of people only go on holiday for a few weeks a year and therefore most of the tourist trade will not be effected. The only parliament that could give British passport holders anything like they experienced before Brexit is in Brussels and considering the benefits can only be offered by membership, that, sadly will never happen. The bottom line is that if you want to spend more time in a European Country than what is offered by the Schengen visa free access you will need to apply for some type of residency in that Country. They are the facts, anything else is speculative. |
|
